France Suing Apple and Google for Taking Advantage of Developers With 'Abusive Commercial Practices'

[JRobinsonJr]

The real I ssue is not the pricing and fee structure! The issue is that Apple and Google can unilaterally breach the agreed-upon contracts thereby taking other developers’ code and then change the contracts to make the developers drop out of the App Store while Apple and Google keep the code. This allows Apple and Google to keep innovative code for themselves without directly buying the smal developer or licensing from them.

While others have already pointed out that neither Apple no Google can directly copy someone else's code b/c of basic copyright laws, there is *nothing* that prevents Apple, Google, OR ANYONE ELSE from appropriating an idea and making better, worse or just different. That's called competition. If the idea behind every single app was barred from adoption by anyone else... we likely would still be living in the stone ages!

 

[TrueBlou]

While others have already pointed out that neither Apple no Google can directly copy someone else's code b/c of basic copyright laws, there is *nothing* that prevents Apple, Google, OR ANYONE ELSE from appropriating an idea and making better, worse or just different. That's called competition. If the idea behind every single app was barred from adoption by anyone else... we likely would still be living in the stone ages!

Amen to that...... Though I used to love Dos, I hated it when Windows first came on the scene, never used it when possible. Mind you, I’m back to hating Windows at times again, the cycle continues

 

[macduke]

They noticed it in 2015? Weren’t they paying attention between 2008 - 2015?

Honestly, I think 2015 was around the time that many politicians moved on from Blackberry and got a real smartphone—whether it be Android or iOS—and started getting offended about things they still don't fully understand. This is how we ended up in bizzaro world with the secretary of state getting fired on Twitter.

 

[TrueBlou]

Honestly, I think 2015 was around the time that many politicians moved on from Blackberry and got a real smartphone—whether it be Android or iOS—and started getting offended about things they still don't fully understand. This is how we ended up in bizzaro world with the secretary of state getting fired on Twitter.

You may have a point there. It’s funny/cringeworthy when you see some of them in interviews on TV talking about technology.

I think you’d get the same reaction from them if you’d to mention anything to do with app development as you would just walking up to them and saying, doormat.

 

[69Mustang]

Perhaps I worded it badly, I was more suggesting that to single out any company for a practice that is effectively industry standard is biased to say the least. After all have you noticed how they always seem to go after the ones with the deepest pockets.

I’m a firm believer that if you’re going to do these sorts of things, you should be doing it in a method that applies to the entire industry. Not just those you stand to make the most money from. Tarry fingered gypo’s.

In principle, I can agree with you. In principle. Reality says that is the surest way to make the most ineffective impact. Don Quixote comes to mind.

The deepest pockets are targeted because that's where the biggest impacts are made. If you have infinite resources, sure, attack everyone. If you have limited resources, bang for the buck.

 

[jimothyGator]

"Nerver underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." EU

Men in Black summed it up well: A person is smart; people are dumb.

 

[TrueBlou]

In principle, I can agree with you. In principle. Reality says that is the surest way to make the most ineffective impact. Don Quixote comes to mind.

The deepest pockets are targeted because that's where the biggest impacts are made. If you have infinite resources, sure, attack everyone. If you have limited resources, bang for the buck.

That’s just it though. Government bodies have the power to impact an entire industry by simply introducing one new law, or by changing an existing one.
It’s happened many, many times before.

By targeting only the deepest pockets, it’s not limited resources, it’s greed. Maybe they’re needing new mansions. Or £10,000 a roll wallpaper for their studies. But greed nonetheless.

Of course there’s going to be times when someone/group has limited resources, fair enough, hit for the big payday. This however isn’t one of those times.

(Incidentally, the wallpaper comment, while slightly exaggerated is based in reality. There was a big hubbub a few years back in the UK over the amount politicians were spending on such things).

 

[thekeyring]

Software piracy on iOS is pretty rife too. I remember launching a game a few years back and in the first week there were many, many thousands more people playing it than I had sales. Go figure.

I don’t really give a rats bahookie about piracy though if I’m honest. The people who pirate are generally significantly less likely to pay for the product anyway. They’ll either get it for free, or in most cases, just won’t get it.

How does this happen? Jail broken devices?

 

[TrueBlou]

How does this happen? Jail broken devices?

You don’t even need to be jailbroken any more. There’s at least three methods I know of. A couple of easy to install apps for your device and one other way, none of which I can mention of course, but yeah, it’s pretty damn easy to get such things now.

Of course you’re opening yourself up to the possibility of malware and other nasties if you do use pirated software. It’s very nature means that the person who provides it has the opportunity to inject malicious code into the pirated app which you’ll never know about until it’s too late.

You walk the dark road, you take your chances.

 

[AppleMad98004]

One is not forced to develop for Apple or Google. They are private AMERICAN companies.

 

[Inkling]

Apple, Google, and others have no one but themselves to blame. With their "double Irish" tax ploy they evaded billions in European taxes. And whether that proves to have been technically legal or not, that painted a target on their backs. Break one law, agencies in various European countries have concluded, and you're likely to be breaking others.

Moves like that "double Irish" are particularly stupid for giant U.S. companies doing business in Europe. The taxes they avoid, if they even succeed in avoiding them, are of little importance in comparison to the damage to their brand that these legal fights will create both inside the company's European branches and with the European public. I lived in Seattle during the prosecution of Microsoft of the 1990s. I knew Microsoft workers. Two decades later the companies morale and brand has still not recovered.

And as for these "abusive commercial practices," I suspect the French courts will be looking to see if there's a give and take between Apple and developers. Does Apple make changes based on suggestions, feedback, and even protests from developers or is it almost invariably 'my way or the highway"? For instance, that 30% slice for Apple was set when web services cost more than they do today. Apple could be still me making large profits if it paid 20% or even 10%. It has over $200 billion in cash reserves. Lot of iOS developers can't afford to take their kids to the zoo.

The latter would reflect how many Apple consumers are coming to feel about Apple. Features get added, changed or removed based on Apple dictate and typically accompanied by a lecture from some Apple executive. Needs don't get addressed. Mac models get updated too rarely and often the new models offer less than the old ones (i.e. the 2014 Mac mini). Macs used to cost more but also offer more. Now they just cost more.

 

[TheCoolGuy]

It is true. Apple is abusing it developers. We just pulled out all our apps from App Store. Why we did it is here. Long story short: they removed one of our app because a cloner had reported our app as a clone of his app. http://medium.com/@brijit11/enough-appstorewalkout-itoo-4fac0a13d8

 

[Saipher]

Le Maire said that he has recently become aware of practices performed by Apple and Google, where the companies "unilaterally" impose their prices and tweak other contractural terms with app developers to their liking

By that logic, should we sue movie studios and music labels too?

 

[lederermc]

"The loopholes are said to have allowed Apple to "minimize taxes and grab market share" at the expense of Europe-based companies."

Every country should tax multinationals on global profits prorata based on location of sales.

 

[TrueBlou]

It is true. Apple is abusing it developers. We just pulled out all our apps from App Store. Why we did it is here. Long story short: they removed one of our app because a cloner had reported our app as a clone of his app. http://medium.com/@brijit11/enough-appstorewalkout-itoo-4fac0a13d8

You should have been able to prove that your app was the original and not the one which was being a copycat by the release date. If your app was released before the other then it’s a pretty straightforward process with the Apple team.
I had a similar situation a few years ago, but as my app was released months before the other one showed up it was clear that mine was the original. If I were you I’d have pushed the executive team to take that into consideration.

The releasing of your second “notch” based app may have been a legitimate rejection, obviously I can’t say without seeing them both. But if the second one was very similar to the first, Apple do consider that to be spamming and against their policies.

There’s also a really easy way to prove your ownership of a name, or anything else but you need to do it right at the start of development.

By sending yourself a letter, containing the app name, details, mock-ups drawings and so on right at the start of development and having a dated and postmarked label and stamp across the seal of the envelope.

When you get it back in the post, never open it and never tamper with the seal. It’s not necessarily legally binding. However it can be used to show that you’ve used the name for your app from a specific date. As the envelope is not tampered with and properly postmarked across the seal it shows the specific date you started with and it can be taken into consideration in cases such as you’ve experienced.
[doublepost=1521043527][/doublepost]

One is not forced to develop for Apple or Google. They are private AMERICAN companies.

Tis a good point. Sure if we want to release an iOS app, we have one choice and one choice only for distribution. But there’s no-one holding a gun to our heads saying, make an iPhone app. It’s a choice.

 

[Kaibelf]

Well...Yeah.... At least developers can sell their application in alternative channel with Android. I don't see how they can sue Google. Apple on other hand, cab you sell on alternative channel? No... Because Apple need the 30% cut.

They don't need the cut (though they provide enough infrastructure to justify it IMO), but if you end up with malware from some sketchy source that steals all your data or ruins your device, France will undoubtedly try to blame Apple for that as well.

 

[LovingTeddy]

This hypocrisy again?

Android User 5 Years Ago: "I like Android because it's open and I can get Apps from Google Play or any 3rd party store I wish."
Security Researcher: "But what about all the malware that is prevalent in 3rd party stores?"
Android User Today: "Just stick to Google Play and you won't have any issues. Everyone knows not to trust 3rd party App stores."

I routinely download apps from 3rd party app Store. Never had issue. I download .dmg files from other website, never had problem. It doesn't mean people won't get malware or data syolen by unknown source. If one being careful than it is more than acceptable. Also even if you lock down like iOS does, Malware still exists on iOS.

If you want me to cheery pick flipflop from Apple Users, it is not hard to find.
[doublepost=1521048550][/doublepost]

They don't need the cut (though they provide enough infrastructure to justify it IMO), but if you end up with malware from some sketchy source that steals all your data or ruins your device, France will undoubtedly try to blame Apple for that as well.

Well... Yeah.... Most Windows malware comes from unknown sources too. Most people blame on Microsoft. No much difference. I rather have anti-virus software installed and have potential to get my data stolen, than being locked in.

This is why I use Windows and Android rather than Mac and iOS. Only iOS devices I use are iPads, because there aren't any thing better than iPads

 

[deanthedev]

I routinely download apps from 3rd party app Store. Never had issue. I download .dmg files from other website, never had problem.

If you want me to cheery pick flipflop from Apple Users, it is not hard to find.

Ah yes, since you haven't had an issue the problem doesn't exist in the real world.


https://arstechnica.com/information...-users-with-windows-malware-is-still-a-thing/

https://arstechnica.com/information...e-with-never-before-seen-spying-capabilities/

https://arstechnica.com/information...till-thrives-16-months-after-coming-to-light/

https://arstechnica.com/information...ny-as-2-6m-downloads-added-devices-to-botnet/

https://arstechnica.com/information...-so-aggressive-it-can-physically-harm-phones/

https://arstechnica.com/information...on-downloads-slip-past-google-defenses-twice/

 

[LovingTeddy]

Ah yes, since you haven't had an issue the problem doesn't exist in the real world.


https://arstechnica.com/information...-users-with-windows-malware-is-still-a-thing/

https://arstechnica.com/information...e-with-never-before-seen-spying-capabilities/

https://arstechnica.com/information...till-thrives-16-months-after-coming-to-light/

https://arstechnica.com/information...ny-as-2-6m-downloads-added-devices-to-botnet/

https://arstechnica.com/information...-so-aggressive-it-can-physically-harm-phones/

https://arstechnica.com/information...on-downloads-slip-past-google-defenses-twice/

Do you want me find malware exists in iOS? You might be shocked.

Apple should really lock down their OS... Apple should ban inknowu sources outright. Apple must leave customer volournable from Malware.

By the way, if it means for malware and data loss, I won't mind. People choose Android because of freedom and the choice. I rather have malware than locked in.

 

[TrueBlou]

I routinely download apps from 3rd party app Store. Never had issue. I download .dmg files from other website, never had problem. It doesn't mean people won't get malware or data syolen by unknown source. If one being careful than it is more than acceptable. Also even if you lock down like iOS does, Malware still exists on iOS.

If you want me to cheery pick flipflop from Apple Users, it is not hard to find.
[doublepost=1521048550][/doublepost]

Well... Yeah.... Most Windows malware comes from unknown sources too. Most people blame on Microsoft. No much difference. I rather have anti-virus software installed and have potential to get my data stolen, than being locked in.

This is why I use Windows and Android rather than Mac and iOS. Only iOS devices I use are iPads, because there aren't any thing better than iPads

Oh please, this “locked in” nonsense is, well, nonsense. Let’s take a quick comparison.

Windows - Install apps from anywhere. macOS - Install apps from anywhere.

Android - Install apps from the Google Play Store and if you don’t care about the risk of malware, third party stores and methods.

iOS - Install apps from the Apple AppStore and if you don’t care about the risk of malware, third party stores and methods.***

I’m seeing a bit of a pattern there.

If you want to use the locked in paradigm then look at the wider view. You’re locked in no matter which platform you choose.

Build up a library of Windows apps, well you’re not using them on another platform without virtualisation. And the same applies to macOS. Sure you could use boot camp on a Mac for Windows, but if that’s where the bulk of your apps are, just buy a Windows system.

Use Android, build up a library of apps. You’re not taking those with you if you want to switch to iOS. And not surprisingly, the same applies to iOS.

The “locked in” to Apple and only Apple myth seems to be dragged out every time someone wants to poke at Apple as platforms not to use. While conveniently forgetting that the exact same rule applies to all other platforms


*** To save people quoting this third-party AppStore on iOS statement again. Yes, they do exist these days. No you don’t need to jailbreak anymore.
And no, I won’t tell you what they are, aside from being against the rules, I’m not about to encourage piracy or unapproved apps. If you really want to know, they’re not at all hard to find.

 

[deanthedev]

Do you want me find malware exists in iOS? You might be shocked.

Apple should really lock down their OS... Apple should ban inknowu sources outright. Apple must leave customer volournable from Malware.

By the way, if it means for malware and data loss, I won't mind. People choose Android because of freedom and the choice. I rather have malware than locked in.

I never claimed there wasn't malware in iOS.

What I AM claiming (and am 100% correct) is that Android has a problem with malware, and that this problem is very bad on 3rd party App stores. Even on Google Play (which is supposed to be safe) it's orders of magnitude more severe than on iOS/The App Store.


Aside from the benefits the developers get by being on The App Store (free hosting, not having to set up to allow payments, access to the largest and most valuable customer base on the planet) customers also get the benefit of knowing the chance of getting malware is very low. All of these benefits make the 30% cut Apple takes very reasonable.

And as I mentioned before, with Google Play offering less for the developer/users, they should actually be taking a smaller cut than the same 30% as Apple.

 

[coolfactor]

I completely agree that contracts should be binding to both parties. Too often, the entity issuing the contract has clauses that allows them to change that contract at any time, which kind of defeats the entire purpose of a contract, doesn't it? Property managers are notorious for that...

 

[ChKen]

"The loopholes are said to have allowed Apple to "minimize taxes and grab market share" at the expense of Europe-based companies."

Every country should tax multinationals on global profits prorata based on location of sales.

The problem is that in the EU, they recognize reciprocity between EU members, so that you pay your taxes where your EU HQ is domiciled. That leads companies to cherrypick a country with the best infrastructure, tax regime, etc. Nothing prevents EU-based companies from doing exactly the same, moving their HQ to Ireland, Netherlands, Luxembourg or Portugal's Madeira Island. If the EU doesn't like it, they should have harmonized their tax rates when inviting members.

Just last year, the EU endorsed Madeira's 5% corporate tax rate, and possibly as low as 1%, until 2027. 1600 companies are domiciled on Madeira, creating only 2700 jobs, total.

Ultimately, most of the developed western nations recognize that taxes are based upon where the IP resides. Sales taxes and VAT are already paid where product is sold. Almost all of Apple's IP resides in the US, and that's where almost all of Apple's taxes are being paid.

You remember where the EU touted Apple paid 0.05% tax in Ireland? Well, they didn't include the deferred tax that Apple was accruing, the $35B, because they said it would never be paid. Well, guess what? They've already announced they're paying $38B, so I guess the EU will retract their mistaken tax rate calculation? No, didn't think they would.

 

[LovingTeddy]

Oh please, this “locked in” nonsense is, well, nonsense. Let’s take a quick comparison.

Windows - Install apps from anywhere. macOS - Install apps from anywhere.

Android - Install apps from the Google Play Store and if you don’t care about the risk of malware, third party stores and methods.

iOS - Install apps from the Apple AppStore and if you don’t care about the risk of malware, third party stores and methods.

I’m seeing a bit of a pattern there.

If you want to use the locked in paradigm then look at the wider view. You’re locked in no matter which platform you choose.

Build up a library of Windows apps, well you’re not using them on another platform without virtualisation. And the same applies to macOS. Sure you could use boot camp on a Mac for Windows, but if that’s where the bulk of your apps are, just buy a Windows system.

Use Android, build up a library of apps. You’re not taking those with you if you want to switch to iOS. And not surprisingly, the same applies to iOS.

The “locked in” to Apple and only Apple myth seems to be dragged out every time someone wants to poke at Apple as platforms not to use. While conveniently forgetting that the exact same rule applies to all other platforms

Yes... Unless you jailbreak or using xcode.... Name a third party app Store in iOS without jailbreak ....

I can install 10 app Store on my Android phone if I wish...

Oh... Is Apple purposely let people side load app using xCode, so they can sell Mac? I see it now. Greedy Apple as it is
[doublepost=1521058568][/doublepost]

One is not forced to develop for Apple or Google. They are private AMERICAN companies.

So? What previllages private American companies have?

 

[ChKen]

Apple, Google, and others have no one but themselves to blame. With their "double Irish" tax ploy they evaded billions in European taxes. And whether that proves to have been technically legal or not, that painted a target on their backs. Break one law, agencies in various European countries have concluded, and you're likely to be breaking others.

Moves like that "double Irish" are particularly stupid for giant U.S. companies doing business in Europe. The taxes they avoid, if they even succeed in avoiding them, are of little importance in comparison to the damage to their brand that these legal fights will create both inside the company's European branches and with the European public. I lived in Seattle during the prosecution of Microsoft of the 1990s. I knew Microsoft workers. Two decades later the companies morale and brand has still not recovered.

And as for these "abusive commercial practices," I suspect the French courts will be looking to see if there's a give and take between Apple and developers. Does Apple make changes based on suggestions, feedback, and even protests from developers or is it almost invariably 'my way or the highway"? For instance, that 30% slice for Apple was set when web services cost more than they do today. Apple could be still me making large profits if it paid 20% or even 10%. It has over $200 billion in cash reserves. Lot of iOS developers can't afford to take their kids to the zoo.

The latter would reflect how many Apple consumers are coming to feel about Apple. Features get added, changed or removed based on Apple dictate and typically accompanied by a lecture from some Apple executive. Needs don't get addressed. Mac models get updated too rarely and often the new models offer less than the old ones (i.e. the 2014 Mac mini). Macs used to cost more but also offer more. Now they just cost more.

If something is "technically legal" then how is that "break[ing] the law"? And where is this written that if you do something "technically legal" "you're likely to be breaking other [laws]"?

Companies like Apple, deferred their taxes, booking $35B in their accounts. They'll take no hit to earnings when the tax is repatriated shortly. Others, like Google, actually booked nothing, that's why they took a $9.8B hit to earnings last quarter. They had to pay all the back tax they hadn't been deferring. While some companies have been bad actors, they aren't all the same. Likewise, Microsoft took a $13.8B hit last quarter, because like Google, they didn't book any deferred tax. If they're demoralized, maybe they should be.

As for store margin rates, you could also argue that 30% was a loss-leader to market the store when it was beginning, and that profits today are paying back that capital investment. Who's to say what rate is too much or too little?

As for the $200B, that doesn't belong to developers. Developers have already been paid over $70B by last year. Of that $200B, half of that can go to pay down debt. $38B goes to the US Treasury, and the rest is income that primarily belongs to shareholders.