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From A PC to Mac

you can also run...

You can also run any blend of Windows by running Virtual PC. OS X is built on UNIX so if you bring up the scary looing termnial you are welcomed with the # promt. (well not really.. I think tch is the defalut shell. So Mac OS X is really 2 OS's in one or at least you can think of it that way if you want to. And as Akuma said.. you can run Linux on a Mac as well. True Apple harware is a pit picky about what runs on it but then again why would you want to run an inferior OS on a Mac anyway? I do runother OS's ontop of Mac OS.. but Mac OS is allways going to be there.
 
justthefacts...

I am still waiting to hear what you can do on a PC that you can't do on a Mac...Anyone else curious?
 
OK hinkhous and the rest of you. I checked with my cousin Steve, he is the most PRO Mac person I know (notice i actually capitalized the first letter of Mac that time 🙂.) and there isnt much if anything in hardware that you cant do on a Mac these days, although its definately not the way its always been. However, as he said.."the choices are definately limited." Which is unfortunate.
But when it comes to software there is a lot you cant do. Although the same could be said from a mac point of view about the wintels.

The Macs have come a long way from my perspective (wintel enthusiast), and I give them credit for this.
But to gain market share they have a long way to go.
One day they may view resellers as a formidable "sales force" and if they open those gates up, they might find a larger chunk of the market awaits them.

I love linux for what it is good for. I could never push linux boxes to the average person, nor could I do what i do on a linux box everyday. I definately could never ask my wife to learn linux. I see Mac the same way but BETTER. I could get my wife used to a Mac. But the fact is a reseller I dont expect to pay FULL price for a box, but with a mac I would have too. Furthermore there is no profit for me to sell them. Mac SHOULD consider me a "sales person" and get something set up so i can make money selling and pushing their systems, but instead they align themselves as my competitor, which means I will not push their products.

As we all know, when it really comes down to it, you can survive and prosper with a Mac or a Wintel. That applies to ALL OF US. There really isnt anything that you HAVE to do on a Mac or a Wintel. They both are formidable systems that cover all of the bases.
But this was all started because of market share.(?) And Mac is definately missing the boat on many issues. Even if they DONT drop prices, they could create a reseller program that allows the systems to pass through a reseller who can make a profit for pushing the system, and therefore more systems would be sold. The reseller deals with support, sells perepherials etc..and its all good.

But..Mac wants to stay secluded....hence the small market share.

I live in a medium sized town in Indiana. All of my business customers ask me what to buy, what technology to use. And since I can accomplish their goals with either Macs, or Wintels, I choose Wintels because I can make a profit selling them. Although two of my largest customers are radio stations and we have to use Wintels. Most companies do. Most people are FORCED into using wintels by third party companies and other reasons, but of course this is not microsoft's fault. In fact, Microsoft is NOT a monoply, we all have a choice, a clear choice. But the fact is, for most Microsoft and Intel are the BEST choice. You all think of it in terms of performance and speed etc. But the fact is that it is ALL ABOUT MONEY. If i have a client that pays me 30,000.00 for x number of computers and time spent configuring software for business purposes, there isnt much doubt that to accomplish the same general task in a mac world it would take a greater amount up front, not to mention to train people how to use the macs.

That is the bottom line, and its the ONLY line that matters.

So the issue is really two fold. Cost, and resellers. That is the heart of Macs' problem with gaining market share. As a man who enjoys options, I would love to have Mac in my stable of "solutions." but the fact is I wont sell their product for them, they wont allow me to make money selling their product...so they can just stay at 5% market share.
Several people in these forums have referred to wintels as just "word processor machines." That actually is a gross exaggeration, BUT..the fact is that documents, spreadsheets and databases are what drives the world for most people on their computers.
So excelling in that, specifically microsoft with their office suites is just good business. In fact, I would say its better business than what Mac manages to do. !

What are they really thinking I wonder ???????

The computer industry is all about compatiblity and the number of users/market share you have.
Why is Corel down so much ? Because Microsoft got Office packaged with so many OEM systems that it basically became the "norm" for wintels. So if you are on a wintel and use corel people look at you funny !
Is that monopolistic practices on microsoft's part ? NO NO NO, that is just good business.
All the people that criticize microsoft should remember this is AMERICA, home of free enterprise. There has never been anything that microsoft has done or been charged with that cant ALSO be argued is just good business, and there are some formidable people that do argue exactly that. And i mean objective third parties.

So to you all...lighten up !
If you were microsoft, you would have completly different opinion. And mac..is mac..and mac is where..it is..because they CHOOSe to be there. Or they are in denial..or they are greedy !
I think they are afraid to open up their systems to us resellers and other business, for obvious reasons. But the fact is that intel and microsoft to NOT drive the computer industry, not does compaq, dell, ibm etc.
The fact is that most systems are wintels but they come from so many different Oem's and clone builders that NO ONE has a overwhelming chunk of the share. That is how it should be !
Mac..is the one going against the grain, being greedy, and trying to gain market share and not let ANYONE else share in the profit. As long as that is their attitude, they will remain ALONe and not a major player. ANd in all actualy, in terms of dollars and cents they ARENT a major player in the computer industry, not relatively speaking they arent. 5% is NOTHING when you consider they numbers of everyone else. And when you consider 5% is what they represtent in terms of their systems, technology and OS..its really bad.

They should perhaps design the Mac os to run on an Intel based, or build a intel based Mac...they need some cross over and to open their world...they will do nothing but benefit from it. And if they fold...they deserve it.

[Edited by justthefacts on 12-07-2001 at 12:10 AM]
 
Whatever comes up - must come down. Microsoft's good days are over! When Apple's contract with Microsoft is over apple will buy the Mac Office team and create Appleworks 7 - 8 which will seriously kick some butt.

You see the problem is Apple is tooooooo nice. They let MS copy everything & get away with it. It's time Apple plays it at it's own game... 🙂

I used to be a Wintel user, and every time I turn on my Mac I wondered how I survived in a Wintel world!

It is true that Macs are more expensive, but they are the actual "BMW's" of the market. (Mercedes quality has gotten extremely bad after the merger with Mitsubishsi & Chrysler).

I personally have used Windows XP (my neighbor has it), and find it CRAP! Mac OS 10 kicks it's butt in everyway...

Windows XP now has CD burning... Uh ahhh Apple has had that for over a year know.
WIndows XP has a fancy interface .... OHHHHH Mac OS 10 kicks it on all fronts (who wants a green start menu??)
Xp has tons of over bloated crap features

AND AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE TO WORK ON A BEIGE BOX!

I swear one day Apple will rise from it's 5% market share and take over the rest of the industry. What apple needs to show people that we are no more "an isolated" type of computer. Apple's can now do more than the average PC (even top ends for that matter).

About price... When I bought my rev. D iMac 3 years ago for 2000 sfr... It was extremely cheap (compared to other wintel boxes!). My powermac was expensive (5900 sfr) but it came with a beatifle 17" display. Tell me... Can you build a system with a DVD burner + The best DVD burning software?

No you cant't! Once Apple realizes that if they market people to "see" their great & easy products. The whole world will wither!

Go APPLE go Apple.

P.S. PC's have millions of bugs compared to Mac's. OS 10 whoops 95/98/2000 & Xp in wraps. The only Microsoft OS I have seen with no bugs (as far as I could see) was DOS & Win 3.1! Win 2000 crashes all the time at my school (even the school server crashes every week, at least once). And windows 98 crashes and shutdown if you put it into 32bits of color (i'm not talking about second edittion... The absolute first retail version of 98). How sad is that?
 
You actually don't have to train people to use Macs! Heck i moved to macs when I was 9 & now I know linux.

If your talking about programs... most Mac programs are the same on both platform (adobe ones for sure).

So basically you hate the Mac cause you can't make a profit of them... Smart... This is a discussion not on who's making a profit or whatever... This is (at least I am) a discussion about Mac technology vs. Windoze technolglogy!

 
im glad this justthefacts character came around, because he illustrates a fact that we have been discussiing but many of us simply dont believe. peecee users are morons... ok i'll be nicer (sorry for the harshness). peecee users are ignorant. but its a whole lot worse than that. many of these ignorant peecee users run around pretending they know somethign about computers and about macs. they arent qualified to use their own computers let alone talk about what macs are.

dantec, you are so right. we all know it. nothing you said is new to any of us, but im certain our justthefacts friends will question much of what you said. further more, there are so many things wrong with justthefacts thinking that we cant even begin to correct... this fellow is so ignorant and so convinced of himself that he will post a page long message advertising his ignorance to a room full of mac users.

how many of you read that and either just started laughing or just started getting angry about each and every thing this guy said? the sudden silience following his post is evidence that we were all shocked at the audacity and ignorance of this self proclaimed wintel fanatic.

m$ is a lot like the american GOP, they spout off lies to a sea of morons and the louder they get the more the ignorant masses believe their lies.
 
OMG, so now I am a moron.

Ok..lets go with that..it will demonstrate my point just perfectly.

Lets say I AM a moron...completely.

The fact is this.

1. Someone is WRONG, i thought this started over why Mac has a small market share ?
2. It is very possible that pound for pound Mac is a better computer. I am not convinced of that, but I will SURELY agree that it is quite possible.
3. As to your wintel server at school crashing every week, you NEED not go there.
Servers, specifically web servers and programming in C++, VB, ASP, and Oracle is my business. Has been for a LONG time. You CANT...CANT do what you do in a windows web server world on a mac. You can argue linux and unix all day and I will AGREE..but Mac has to basically stay out of that argument. The main reason for choosing asp (and therefore windows tech.) over unix and java based technology is because of compatibility. And..my friend..i know windows servers that never get rebooted.
I would say that either you windows server at school or whatever is either not ran properly or has junk hardware.

I have a home system...four monitors, television, dvd, games, programming stuff, cable internet etc etc..and i go weeks and weeks without a reboot.

4. yes you can burn dvd's on a wintel.
5. Remember...this is about small market share.
6. If i am a moron, and all of us wintel users are morons that is why Wintel's have the huge market share. Because it allows a "moron" like me to become a programmer, make tons of money selling programming services, networks, servers, etc.

Mac can be superior, and they just might be already. But it doesnt matter. There is a LOT MORE to commanding a greater market share. And maybe in a dream world, the BEST product will get the largest market share, but in the REAL world that just does not play out !

From my point of view..i say "who is the moron?"
Who is naive about the reality of the computer industry ?
Who is very unrealistic that "mac will suddenly take over ?

If i was a betting man..i would bet that the Mac is BETTER !
Yes i would.
Of course defining how to define that would be a difficult thing to do..and because of that it is really hard to say one is better. I could NOT do what I do, make what I make, and accomplish the solutions I sell in a mac world. So surely that counts for something in the big picture of better.

But..for the record....when it comes to PERSONAL computing I will concede that in most areas Macs are user friendly, better performing etc etc.
And of course, they are more expensive !

I dont really believe that, if i look at ONE aspect of a computer I do believe it, but then on another aspect I dont. ANd it goes back and forth on many different aspects.
And that is simply reality. And its simply not even relevent !!

Mac can be better, can be superior.
And you know what..even if that is true..and they drop the price..the market share wont go up..or not much at all.
Its a much larger issue.
And i know I am right.
And..well..umm...I am not a moron..but thanks anyway.

Yes..i do not deal with Macs because I cant make money on them. But..thats why my house is paid off, my vehicle is paid for..and at this moment I am sitting on the couch, in my boxers..posting this.
Most days..i lazily get up, because of how successful I have been in the "wintel world."
And whether Mac is superior or NOT, I cant go over to the "mac side" obi one because the MONEY IS NOT THERE !
And my family has to eat, my vehicle needs gas, my boat needs new fishing rods..etc etc.

And until Mac deals with that issue...they will NEVER command a significant amount of market share.

It is pathetic that a computer (mac) that probably is superior in most ways...only has 5%.
It really is pathetic.

[Edited by justthefacts on 12-07-2001 at 08:11 AM]
 
Originally posted by justthefacts
Click to expand...
Servers, specifically web servers and programming in C++, VB, ASP, and Oracle is my business. Has been for a LONG time. You CANT...CANT do what you do in a windows web server world on a mac. You can argue linux and unix all day and I will AGREE..but Mac has to basically stay out of that argument.

Sadly, my friend, you are wrong on that point. The new Mac OS is Unix based. Therefore, just about anything you can do on a Unix/Linux box, you can do on a mac nowadays. And Unix has been around far longer than MS Windows.

Here's my take on the situation:

Apple's market share is small. Something like 5%. Okay. However, with that measly little 5%, they still manage to get new products out, stock prices are slightly improving, and they even managed to post a profit last quater.

It's possible that apple could maybe get 10 - 15 % of the market share on computers, but would they really want to? I think that they are content with the base that they have. Sun probably has about the same market share (maybe even less) but no one is pushing Irix sun computers on everyone. Why? because they are specialized boxes. Same with a Mac. Graphics/Music/Pre-press people typically use a mac to get theie job done, and make money.

Just because you cannot make money from the resale/repair of macs, doesn't classify it as a bad system. There are probably tons of resellers that make money off the sale of macs. Maybe, had you started sooner in the mac game you could have built up your lifestyle around mac sales, but you didn't, and money isn't necessarily everything.

If apple had a bigger market share than they did now, they would most certainly fall under a more scrupulous eye, and let me tell you, the mac community is probably harder on apple than the wintel community is! We tend to be a very picky lot, just read some posts from this site and you'll get that feeling very fast. 🙂

I think your narrow views of Macs are flawed in most aspects. However I am not here to convert you or to prove you wrong. You have yor beliefs and I have mine.

As you can see most Mac users are happy with there boxes and we know that they have a small market share, but you know what? That just makes me feel better about my computer. Same way a BMW/Mercedes owner feels about their car. I worked hard to get my macs and I am proud of them. They are extremely dependable. Moreso than the pc's I've had.


 
Windows v UNIX

OK, so maybe you can't do everything on a Mac that you can do on Windows, but that's not much of an arguement for Windows as a secure platform to use on the Internet.

Microsoft have acknowledge that there are serious problems with IIS, at the moment they're busy working on a replacement for IIS, and all Microsoft developers are entirely dependant on their endevours.

The difference with UNIX is that it's open source, which makes it more secure. Patches are reguarly released, and security holes come to light quickly, rather than being kept a secret by MS.

As for ASP v JSP - you CANT... CANT do as much with ASP as you can do with JSP - it's scripting v programming language.

As a server, OS X is a humble beginning, but it's more standards-based than Windows in the sense of being based on Open Source industry standard UNIX, rather than Microsoft's flawed proprietary solutions.
 
15 grand Intellistation

WHO HAS THE FACTS WRONG???

People, go to IBM.com. Look at their new Intellistation Z systems. The have the Dual Itanium 800mHz processors, and their systems are upgradable to 16 gig (yes 16 GIG) of ram. Look for yourself before you slander my facts. They are 15,000 dollars. Before anyone else makes some idiotic reply that I have my facts wrong, go look yourself.

http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin...r=1&cgmenbr=1&cntry=840&lang=en_US&scrfnbr=73

These are high-end systems, and better than macs. But my point is, for 12,000 less, you can get a nice Dual 800 G4 and work your heart away.

Please, people. Think. This is exactly why people dont like mac users so much. Talk with your brain engaged, and dont automatically think that everyone else is wrong.
 
agreenster, you didnt mention it was an itanium system in your original post, that is an important fact !

Do more with JSP ? I dont think so !! Way wrong, I program in both ! Jsp limits you to the java family. Asp lets you also go into vb, java, c++, C etc. ASp is more open because of COM which JSP doesnt support.

Mac server running unix ? Hmm..i didnt know that but its exactly what I was proposing. They let ANOTHER OS run on their system. THe mac OS will not serve as a REAL business solution for the masses.

Where does Mac stand on POS (Point of Sale), I have never heard of a Mac POS system and they are HUGE industry.

And i see now we are back the mercedes, BMW, I know most people dont have them and I like that argument.

This all started about Market Share. And now you are all back to being proud mercedes owners. Thats all well and good..but like mercedes, Mac has a small market share. And actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down. Microsoft greatly changed the TCP/IP stack.

I do agree that Mac users are hard on macs. Many people in this forum have said that for LESS money they can buy a Wintel that WHIPS their mac in everyway. Hmmmmm does that mean wintel is better ? Perhaps !

And finally...it is said, as I said, Mac's are SPECIALIZED systems. Which means small market share.


As for Mac/Unix servers. The ever so dependable specialized Unix ( and I say that sincerely !) has been running on Intels for years without issue..SO WHY pay more to run it on a mac ? You would have to be stupid. I hope Mac doesnt think they are going to sell a lot of those.
What marketing idiot came up with that idea ?

And Mr. Greenster, no company DESERVES more market share. You get what you get. There are mathmatically based reasons for the low apple market share. Until/unless those reasons are addressed, it will not change. And how do you say Microsoft will take over the entire consumer market and you will lose apple ? You are not comparing apples to apples. It is a lot more than Microsoft.....so get your facts straight ! And....as your own Mac forum users have attested in other post...it doesnt take a 15,000.00 computer to beat a mac. It takes much less than that. Look around the forum and you will see what I mean.
 
You all ignore one simple fact. From POS systems, to Programming to Surfing and hodge podge networking multiple OS's Windows is very open, friendly, and attempts to OFFER IT ALL. Do they deliver on that ? Not completely but they come pretty close. That is why they have BUGS, because they try to offer EVERYTHING.

Of course you wont have hardware conflicts with a mac. Jeez Mac's have such limited options for hardware anyway. Dont you know that by opening things up on the Mac like the wintels that more hardware problems will come with it ? It is simple math. If you can only choose between 2 tv tuners for mac, it stands to chance that your chances of conflict are greatly reduced than if you had a wintel and had literally hundreds of viable solutions.
Owning wintel's gives the USEr the options, sure you can configure it to mess all up. But...when wintel users want something we dont have to wait for microsoft or Dell, Gateway to offer it. There are millions of companies offering software and hardware for the systems. Thats the beauty of it. Its all OPEN ! not a monopoly. Everyone has a choice. Much the same way that we all have a choice between the Mac, Wintel, and others. And..umm...well..in case you havent noticed..these Billions of people choose wintels. But I guess you few mac users (maybe 50 million at best ?) know better huh ?
 
If you are using programs like Photoshop I think that you will all find that the Mac is FASTER than any pc! Just wait for the speed bumped G4's in january + G5's when they come out. (I use both mac's + pc's)
 
Macs are better at graphics and video editing. But if you give me the money you spend on a MAC, I can put up a good fight and possibly win a performance test with a custom Wintel. In fact..more than a few Mac Users have said exactly that in this forum. Look around and read..you will see !
 
Maybe a good fight (with current machines)! I think the mac would still just edge out the pc. However, the macs are due for some major changes in the months to come which should set the record straight.
 
Ok....wait a minute...can we only deal with reality..as in TODAYS current technology.

This is like saying..well its a fair fight now..but im going to train and beat you up someday !?

Mac, Wintels...its all progressing.

Although..mac is a monopoly in the Mac world..and that hurts you all..you just dont realize it ! If you want a mac..you got ONE PLACE to get it manufactured from.

If I want a wintel..i have lots of options including building my own.

So whose so OPEN..and whos not ?
Sure...if i want the Win part of Wintel ...i got microsoft..but is that their fault ? Their OS is the most GUI based, userfriendly one on the market today. ANd ive used macs, unix, linux even with the GUI it doesnt compare.

Some of microsoft's practices have been debated as monopolistic, but NOTHING has ever been CLEARLY monopolistic..hence the reason they are not being severaly penalized. They are definatly guilty of being schrewd in R&D, marketing, strategy, and execution.

I applaud them for that.



LEts be real here !
 
It is true that Apple has lost some performace compared to the pc's over recent months because of Motorola not being able to deliver what they promised!

The last update to the powermacs was only ugraded to 867Mhz. However, they were supposed to be 1Ghz machines but because of a scalability problem with the G4 it was not possible!
 
You have to be joking!!! XP is like a fisher price set!!! It forces you do give personal details + also makes you re-register the product ever-so-often along with other problems.

It is a fact that XP now requires more mouse clicks to do general operations than say on ME or the Mac!
 
Let me be clear on this.
From what I have seen of Macs..they are wonderful. The only complaints I hear a lot are:
1. Price
2. Lack of choices for hardware/peripherals/software.


However...if you read the FIRST post in this thread it was about MARKET SHARE.

And...if they want to change that..its not a mac vs. wintel issue.

Its much greater than that.

They are ignoring so much of the computer market.
They choose to be specialized. Clearly by their actions that is true. Or they just do not know what they are doing...and that is possible.
 
Originally posted by justthefacts
Click to expand...
Do more with JSP ? I dont think so !! Way wrong, I program in both ! Jsp limits you to the java family. Asp lets you also go into vb, java, c++, C etc. ASp is more open because of COM which JSP doesnt support.

This is far beyond my computer knowledge so someone else (i'm sure) will reply to it.

Mac server running unix ? Hmm..i didnt know that but its exactly what I was proposing. They let ANOTHER OS run on their system.

Mac OS is a Unix based system. It is apple's way of putting a proven stable platform (Unix) into a friendly, easy to use, operating system (mac OS). Power hungry Unix users can drop into the terminal and bang away command lines to their hearts content. Or day-to-day Mac OS users can happily never touch the terminal and still get work done.

Where does Mac stand on POS (Point of Sale), I have never heard of a Mac POS system and they are HUGE industry.

From what I've heard all Apple stores use Mac as the POS system. Here's a link to a Mac point of sale page http://web2.iadfw.net/larry/pos.html (31 different vendors of Mac POS system/software)
But a macintosh will never be a a business "solution" unless that business is film/video/music/press/education etc.

is all started about Market Share. And now you are all back to being proud mercedes owners. Thats all well and and good..but like mercedes, Mac has a small market share.

We've established that, see my previous post.

actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down.

Give me proof, please.

As for Mac/Unix servers. The ever so dependable specialized Unix ( and I say that sincerely !) has been running on Intels for years without issue..SO WHY pay more to run it on a mac ?

You don't have to pay more. Factor in all the costs and the mac is about the same as any wintel box.

You seem to be degrading into mac bashing. What macintosh systems have you used?
 
XP ??? Did I ever mention XP ?

I work on win2k...and oNLY win2k.

XP is another issue altogether.

I know the registration requirements are because Microsoft loses millions if not billions on the fact that their software is passed around from user to user without being paid for.
you cant blame them for that.

Most of the best third party software..i mean the stuff that cost 10,000 plus...requires similiar things.
 
Akuma:
actually....Win2k pound for pound is the FASTEST thing for surfing the net..that has been proven hands down.

Give me proof, please.

Sorry I do not have it. I assumed that was common knowledge with those in the forum. Microsoft increased the internet speeds on win2k at about 45%. I ran multiple test on the same systems, same connection, same site to verify that when Win2k came out.

My own cousin has a wintel celeron dual cpu, and several macs. he even says suring on that celeron under win2k is about twice as fast on the bandwidth meter test. Which of course are not EXACXT science, but serve well as benchmarks if you run hundreds of test..which we both have.
 
Ditch Microsoft IIS now, says Gartner

I agree with some of your points justthefacts. I need to look in to what you're saying about ASP - sounds interesting.

In particular, I agree that it doesn't make sense to pay Apple prices for hardware just to run Linux on it, when you get much more bang for your buck with Intel/AMD boxes.

OS X is Unix based, and this does offer lots of interesting avenues for the Mac platform that did not previously exist - but agreed, right now that's just speculation.

The main point you make that I would take issue with is that Windows is an open platform. It may be a popular platform, but it is certainly not open, and this has some disadvantages in terms of security on the Internet (I would agree that you can't beat W2K for a corporate intranet but I wouldn't let it loose on the Internet).

Check out this link on the Regiser...

The Register: Ditch Microsoft IIS now, says Gartner
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/21853.html

 
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