Front Wheel Drive? Or Rear Wheel Drive?

[jasonvp]

Every time I see someone driving a Corvette I cringe at the thought that they could have had a Lotus Elise or Mercedes-Benz SLK but decided against it.

Why's that? Elises are go-karts with slightly larger engines in them. They're as comfortable to ride in as sitting on a coffee table with casters, and have the amenities of a 1960s VW Bug (ie: none). As for a Mercedes? Really? One of the worst reliability records within the last decade?

Thus far with my ZR1, I've met precisely 2 people that have out-gunned me at the race track. One was a fella in a highly modified (and seriously weight-reduced) 911 turbo that was putting out a good deal more power than my 640(!) The second is a friend of mine in an overly-modified C5 Corvette who can run circles around pretty much anyone at that track. Everyone else has been a rolling chicane. Including those driving Elises (or anything else from Lotus).

Every time I see someone driving an Elise, a Porsche, a 2-seater Bimmer, or the like, I cringe and think, "Gee, they'd be having a ton more fun in a Corvette..."

jas

 

[steviem]

Every time I see someone driving a Corvette I cringe at the thought that they could have had a Lotus Elise or Mercedes-Benz SLK but decided against it.

In the UK, I'd tend to agree (not with the SLK though, that isn't really a sports car in my eyes), in the US, where there's nothing really wrong with people earning 'normal' amounts of money owning cars with V8 engines, I don't think the compromise in the Elise is required as much.

 

[Signal-11]

I've driven a Dodge Neon SRT4

A Dodge Caliber SRT4

A Chevy Cobalt SS

Honda Civic SI

And a VW GTi.

Boring.

The SRT4 Neon was the only one I had any fun in.

I've driven 3/5 of those and none of them are what I would characterize as really fun cars, either.

I notice that 3/5 of your cars are Detroit iron. I also notice that you've left the number one, almost universally acclaimed "fun" FWD car off your driving list, the Mini Cooper S. As I mentioned in a previous post, I actually had more fun in a Cooper S than a Camaro SS on Highway-1/PCH north of SF to Stinson Beach. The drive south to LA on the PCH, I was glad I had the SS.

My lifestyle is such that I drive a LOT of different types of cars. I have a slight preference for RWD/AWD cars myself, but it depends on the car and the situation. You can't say that FWD cars are no fun, especially if you haven't driven cars like the Cooper S, the Scirocco-R or the older Integra-Rs, Preludes or RSXs.

A few months ago, I took up employment in Korea and shopped for a new car. My choices narrowed down to a couple FR cars, among them the Genesis Coupe, some BMWs vs a few FF European hot hatches, including a Peugot, a couple Mini Cooper Ss, the Scirocco R.

What it came down to was that I'll never be tracking any of these cars and that there are few opportunities for competitive driving here so I'd never be able to push a car to the point where it's drivetrain would really matter all that much. Not at speeds where I wouldn't be a menace to everyone around me on public roads, anyway.

That said, last month, at a test drive event on a closed mountain loop, I almost understeered a Mini Coupe S into guardrails in a way I wouldn't have in an MX-5.

 

[steviem]

I've driven 3/5 of those and none of them are what I would characterize as really fun cars, either.

I notice that 3/5 of your cars are Detroit iron. I also notice that you've left the number one, almost universally acclaimed "fun" FWD car off your driving list, the Mini Cooper S. As I mentioned in a previous post, I actually had more fun in a Cooper S than a Camaro SS on Highway-1/PCH north of SF to Stinson Beach. The drive south to LA on the PCH, I was glad I had the SS.

My lifestyle is such that I drive a LOT of different types of cars. I have a slight preference for RWD/AWD cars myself, but it depends on the car and the situation. You can't say that FWD cars are no fun, especially if you haven't driven cars like the Cooper S, the Scirocco-R or the older Integra-Rs, Preludes or RSXs.

A few months ago, I took up employment in Korea and shopped for a new car. My choices narrowed down to a couple FR cars, among them the Genesis Coupe, some BMWs vs a few FF European hot hatches, including a Peugot, a couple Mini Cooper Ss, the Scirocco R.

What it came down to was that I'll never be tracking any of these cars and that there are few opportunities for competitive driving here so I'd never be able to push a car to the point where it's drivetrain would really matter all that much. Not at speeds where I wouldn't be a menace to everyone around me on public roads, anyway.

That said, last month, at a test drive event on a closed mountain loop, I almost understeered a Mini Coupe S into guardrails in a way I wouldn't have in an MX-5.

The only car I really regret selling was my 205 GTi. I had a VW Golf GTI mk2 a year or so after, but it felt almost too planted to the road. The 205 had a beautiful close gearbox, you needed to keep it revving pretty high and if you went into a corner too quick, lifted off, you'd go into this slide of oversteer that you could only correct by stuffing your foot into the accelerator. It was like I had my own Rally car.

The Camaro SS I drove, whilst I could feel like it would be more fun if I could actually control the power delivery, felt very hamstrung by the transmission.

The Cobalt in G51989's list is basically an Astra, I'd consider that car more european than 'Detroit Iron'. Also, if G51989 stays in the US, he'll never get to try a Peugeot and the Scirocco isn't available here (unless it can be a grey import?).

I think another question is Manual vs Automatic on giving you a fun experience driving. Invariably, automatics just don't do it for me.

 

[Synchromesh]

I love how you TOTALLY ignore the fact that I said " most " and not " all " japanese cars are boring eco boxes. And, 4.7 is pretty damn fast for a stock car ( Though the Titanic will beat that, assuming I had the slicks on it, which I typically don't ).

You're an American car fanboi. There is nothing wrong with that but at the same time I find American cars generally inferior. Yes, there are a few exceptions but none of them are 4-cylinder. Americans just don't know how to build small cars, never have. They know about V8s and they should stick to that. I've been looking at the current crop of smaller cars they make and I want to laugh every time I see another Focus/Cruze/Caliber.

Of course, I didn't buy a couch to go autocrossing in

I built my fun car, to be fun on the street. Its loud, its fast, and well. Thats all I want it to be. And it looks great. Sure it can't handle. But eh..

I wanted to be able to pull up to someone at a red light, or go on the highwaw, and just make em eat tail lights.

On the first page I saw you mention 500hp. You're telling me you drive a 700hp car on the street every day? How's that going?

Also, typical American approach. Gobs of power but can't handle worth a damn. Another reason not buy an older American car. Newer ones at least attempt to handle. If only they were designed by Japanese they could be worth looking into.

And, from a roll on the highway, that 350 Horsepower WRX, or even off the line if I have slicks on, is no match in a straight line for my 674hp Tower of V8 supercharged power. Have fun eating some taillights.

Stage 2 is a relatively mild WRX upgrade. There are guys out there that have 500hp+ cars too but that requires major mods like engine block, bigger turbo, etc. Those guys will make you eat your taillights and not only on dragstrip but pretty much anywhere, on road and off. Of course their cars generally don't last too long but they do go quite fast before it blows up. Then again, bet your 700hp motor won't last 200K either.

Neither am I, I bought it a couple years ago off someone I know because he REALLY needed the money ( divorce, bankruptcy, at the same time. Joy ), even I'm not to impressed by it, can't hold a handle to the 02 S2K I used to have. I'll most likely sell it at some point. Its a fun little car, and I'll admit it only has 21,000 miles on it. And it only goes out on nice days, because I like dropping the top, but I've never had an issue with it.

It's commendable that you helped your buddy. That doesn't negate the fact that those early cars were neither fast nor reliable. I'd buy a Miata over Boxster any day of the week. Much better platform to start with.

My next " fun car? " I'll most likely keep the 2010 Fully Loaded Vic as my daily driver for a few years, keeping the Marauder Forever, sell the Porsche ( I never drive it ).

The only way you'll catch me in a Crown Vic is if it's the back of a cop car. Over here only 2 kinds of people drive these: cops and grannies. But to each his own. If you enjoy driving that couch then more power to you. As for me, maybe I'll buy one when I'm 80. While I'm young I don't see the point in driving a super comfy car with pos automatic tranny.

And go for a very gently used ( less than 3 years old, under 15,000 miles ), Z06 Corvette, 0-60 in under 4 seconds, 190mph, very very good around the bends, I test drove one once last year, loved every bit of it. 7 Liters of fun

Surprisingly I must agree - Z06 is an excellent car. Lots of performance for the money. And manual too!

 

[Signal-11]

The only car I really regret selling was my 205 GTi. I had a VW Golf GTI mk2 a year or so after, but it felt almost too planted to the road. The 205 had a beautiful close gearbox, you needed to keep it revving pretty high and if you went into a corner too quick, lifted off, you'd go into this slide of oversteer that you could only correct by stuffing your foot into the accelerator. It was like I had my own Rally car.

You bring up a good point about lift throttle oversteer, which, when you know how to induce it in a controlled way, can help your time around corners FWD vehicles. It's not quite the same in a FF as a FR, but it can be done in a well balanced FF. Like in the Integra R and the RSX S I mentioned earlier. Haven't tried it in a Golf (never had much seat time) or a Mini Cooper S (not going to practice on a public road in a rental). It's just another driving technique, if it a bit more difficult to learn for each vehicle.

Years ago, a buddy of mine in DC bought an Evo and two years later, I met him driving around in a Cooper S. I gave him a lot of guff about it when he said how much more legal (and cheaper) fun he had, using the same old FF arguments that I see around the internets. A few years later, after I'd bought my own used Evo for rallying in Africa, I finally got around to driving the Cooper S and driving that around for a few weeks opened my eyes to what he was talking about.

The Camaro SS I drove, whilst I could feel like it would be more fun if I could actually control the power delivery, felt very hamstrung by the transmission.

The Cobalt in G51989's list is basically an Astra, I'd consider that car more european than 'Detroit Iron'. Also, if G51989 stays in the US, he'll never get to try a Peugeot and the Scirocco isn't available here (unless it can be a grey import?).

While I think the US is the single best market for accessibility of a variety of cars at reasonable prices, Americans do miss out on a lot of great cars.

That Scirocco R-Line is a real corner carver. Fast, quick, good linear acceleration. My final choice was between that and the Countryman S that I eventually went with. It was a difficult decision but the four doors won out. Of all the cars I've driven, nothing offers small car driving dynamics in a 4 door package like the Countryman S does. In a lot of ways, I regret my choice, considering all the trouble my Mini is causing me.

I think another question is Manual vs Automatic on giving you a fun experience driving. Invariably, automatics just don't do it for me.

Whole nuther can of worms, you mean.

 

[RITZFit]

You bring up a good point about lift throttle oversteer, which, when you know how to induce it in a controlled way, can help your time around corners FWD vehicles. It's not quite the same in a FF as a FR, but it can be done in a well balanced FF. Like in the Integra R and the RSX S I mentioned earlier.

I can attest to that. I had a 24mm rear sway bar on my old rsx. That car could get pretty tail happy on switchbacks.

 

[G51989]

You're an American car fanboi. There is nothing wrong with that but at the same time I find American cars generally inferior. Yes, there are a few exceptions but none of them are 4-cylinder. Americans just don't know how to build small cars, never have. They know about V8s and they should stick to that. I've been looking at the current crop of smaller cars they make and I want to laugh every time I see another Focus/Cruze/Caliber.

I'm not really interested in a car with a 4 cylinder engine, or a small car to start with. Weather it be Japanese, European, or American.

Stage 2 is a relatively mild WRX upgrade. There are guys out there that have 500hp+ cars too but that requires major mods like engine block, bigger turbo, etc. Those guys will make you eat your taillights and not only on dragstrip but pretty much anywhere, on road and off. Of course their cars generally don't last too long but they do go quite fast before it blows up. Then again, bet your 700hp motor won't last 200K either.

Yeah, but the problem with that. Is that, that takes an ASSTON of money to pull that much power out of those STis ( don't get me wrong, I put an ass ton of money into mine as well, but ehhh.... )

Its MUCH harder to get that kind of power out of a tiny little 4 banger than it is out of a larger V8, the shop I had my motor built at is REALLY good, it probably won't last 200K miles, but its perfectly fine for daily driving.

Plus, if they can pull away from me on the highway...listen to the way those engines sound, I still win. Because my car doesn't sound like a lawn mower

On the first page I saw you mention 500hp. You're telling me you drive a 700hp car on the street every day? How's that going?

Also, typical American approach. Gobs of power but can't handle worth a damn. Another reason not buy an older American car. Newer ones at least attempt to handle. If only they were designed by Japanese they could be worth looking into.

Best Dyno run I've done was 674hp at the crank, which I think is about 550 at the wheels, but that totally depends on weather I'm running pump gas ( most of the time, ), or when I run race gas I can probably crack 700 at the crank.

I don't daily drive it ALL the time, like this week its been really nice out every day, so yes, I've driven it to work every day this week, and I drive it pretty much whenever I can, the tires are pretty useless in the rain.

Not to say it gets daily driven all the time, but it does a lot during the summer, during the late fall and winter, it goes in the garage and doesn't come out, currently has about 58,000 miles on it.

I've taken it on road trips many of times, never gone wrong once.

Well yeah, I didn't buy it to handle, I didn't buy it to go on the track, i bought it because it looks badass. And I like it, and it sounds like sex.

And, unlike a tiny Japanese sedan, I can have all that power and sound and fun, and stuff 3 people in the back, and they'll have tons of room, and throw a bunch of crap in the trunk, and I'm still good to go.

It's commendable that you helped your buddy. That doesn't negate the fact that those early cars were neither fast nor reliable. I'd buy a Miata over Boxster any day of the week. Much better platform to start with.

Yeah, but I like my Boxster, I never drive it, I drive it on super nice days because its a convertible, can't say its ever gone wrong on me though.

It'll go away for mr Z06 at some point

The only way you'll catch me in a Crown Vic is if it's the back of a cop car. Over here only 2 kinds of people drive these: cops and grannies. But to each his own. If you enjoy driving that couch then more power to you. As for me, maybe I'll buy one when I'm 80. While I'm young I don't see the point in driving a super comfy car with pos automatic tranny.

Well, I like them because they are VERY reliable. Safe, and tons of room. And I'm not 80, I'm 27

I typically go into the gym around 7am, workout till 9, work till 5, do some more gym ( not to much ), so I'm really sore at the end of the day, and I like having a nice big comfy automatic couch to drive around in.

And the automatic transmission's in those cars are VERY reliable

Surprisingly I must agree - Z06 is an excellent car. Lots of performance for the money. And manual too!

Yep, I can get one for a good price, keep it stock, have fun.

Mine:

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/15486685/

No its not a year round daily driver, but its like having a ZR1 vette engine under the hood, and I can throw the GF in the trunk...I mean passenger seat, have 3 people who will have tons of room in the back, and have a massive trunk to put stuff in.

I call it practical insanity.

 

[knuckelz]

FWD in snow (tips & tricks)

They don't suck in the snow, they are unpredictable. And speak for yourself, the only FWD car I've ever owned through a bad winter was a 1993 Honda accord, despite the studded snow tires, it was pretty bad. Sure it had slightly better traction. But the front end was all over the place ( They say just take your foot off the gas if you slip, HA! ).

I just wanted to say, that this is probably your main problem. This is IMHO the WORST advice for driving FWD in the snow. I put many cars in the ditch following this advice, before I finally figured out how to actually drive a FWD car in the snow. (Turns out hurting your pride is an EXCELLENT teacher, haha)

The correct (in my experience) way requires a little bit of skill from the driver, since you need to use both feet at the same time:

(Turning) When you get understeer: Point the wheels where you want to go, punch the gas (right foot), and apply a small bit of braking (left foot) until it oversteers, then proceed to "oversteer advice"

(Turning) When you get oversteer: Point the wheels where you want to go, punch the gas until it understeers, then proceed to "understeer advice"

(Straight) Accelerating from stop: Apply a little bit of gas (right foot), and a VERY small bit of brake (left foot)

(Straight) Braking (ice or lite snow OR any snow/ice w/ ABS): Apply some braking (left foot), and a VERY small bit of gas (right foot)

(Straight) Braking (heavy snow w/o ABS): Lock up the brakes (left foot), apply a VERY small bit of gas (right foot)

If you have FWD give this a try next time it snows, and watch how you amazingly become a superb driver. These tricks have worked EVERY time for me. The main trick, is that you ALWAYS apply gas, no matter what, even if it is only a small amount. This is because most cars traction control isn't quite good enough to transfer torque correctly for the situation, and applying gas (& brake at the same time) helps get torque to the correct tires (also, it keeps your car moving, which is helpful in snow).

On Topic: AWD is best (as long as MPG is not a concern). Take an STI out on a gravel track and tell me its not the most fun you've ever had. In fact, if you live in the Puget Sound area, you can do it for a reasonable price (and in someone else's race-ready STI)

 

[quagmire]

I just wanted to say, that this is probably your main problem. This is IMHO the WORST advice for driving FWD in the snow. I put many cars in the ditch following this advice, before I finally figured out how to actually drive a FWD car in the snow. (Turns out hurting your pride is an EXCELLENT teacher, haha)

I was taught it depends on the type of skid. If the front skids, best way to recover is to hit the brakes. If it is a rear skid then you press the gas( and of course point the wheel in the direction of the skid). And I did a skid car that practices just that. So that method works as well.

 

[Synchromesh]

I'm not really interested in a car with a 4 cylinder engine, or a small car to start with. Weather it be Japanese, European, or American.

That's the problem with your average American. This is why we have all these issues with gas and that's also the reason why I hate larger pickups and SUVs. You just can't see anything in front of them and they tend to ignore everybody because with their size it's not their problem.

Its MUCH harder to get that kind of power out of a tiny little 4 banger than it is out of a larger V8, the shop I had my motor built at is REALLY good, it probably won't last 200K miles, but its perfectly fine for daily driving.

You don't need nearly as big numbers out of the 4-cyl simply because the car itself is much lighter, far more aerodynamic and awd. It's just a superior design to begin with, that's all. There is a reason why they stopped making CVs you know.

Plus, if they can pull away from me on the highway...listen to the way those engines sound, I still win. Because my car doesn't sound like a lawn mower

When you lose - you lose, sound or not. But down the road you might be interested in one of those newer Porsches. They have engine sound going through the speakers. A perfect poser mobile.

As for V8 engine sound, I've been in a Grand National that had very loud mufflers. Sure it was relatively fast but it invoked actual headache in about 15 mins of driving. Thanks but no thanks.

I've taken it on road trips many of times, never gone wrong once.

Never say never. It is a Ford after all.

Well yeah, I didn't buy it to handle, I didn't buy it to go on the track, i bought it because it looks badass. And I like it, and it sounds like sex.

So it's all about looks and sound then. How unsurprising.

And, unlike a tiny Japanese sedan, I can have all that power and sound and fun, and stuff 3 people in the back, and they'll have tons of room, and throw a bunch of crap in the trunk, and I'm still good to go.

When it comes to total storage space, a WRX hatch will eat your car in total volume for lunch. Just put the rear seats down in it and you can stick a lot of things in there. As for carrying people, generally I tend to stay out of the Taxi business but it is comfy enough for 4 people and 5 is doable. That's enough for me.

Well, I like them because they are VERY reliable. Safe, and tons of room. And I'm not 80, I'm 27

Are you sure? With all this Crown Vic talk you sound a bit 80ish to me.

And the automatic transmission's in those cars are VERY reliable

Be that as it may, manual is almost always more reliable. And it's far more fun to drive. If it's not manual, I don't even look at it as a car.

 

[knuckelz]

Torque Transfer

I was taught it depends on the type of skid. If the front skids, best way to recover is to hit the brakes. If it is a rear skid then you press the gas (and of course point the wheel in the direction of the skid). And I did a skid car that practices just that. So that method works as well.

Agreed. And that is basically what I'm trying to say (perhaps you're way of wording it is a little easier for most people to understand) but yes. Understeer is essentially a front skid, and oversteer is essentially a rear skid. The only place where my advice differs is to use the gas in BOTH situations (while still applying brakes in a front skid). Using both brakes and gas at the same time helps transfer torque to the correct wheels. In essence, this is what a traction control system would do (actually even most ABS does this as well) but most of those systems just aren't quite as good at it as a human being is, right. So you add the human element, and don't rely on the electronic system and you're car handles MUCH better (and safer).

It is actually pretty easy to test what I am saying about using both brakes & gas. Next time you are in an empty parking lot (covered in snow or ice) try it out. Try accelerating from a stop just using gas, then try it again but add a little bit of brake. It should help immensely. It is the same concept for turning (except there is also the matter of weight transfer involved for FWD vs RWD but that starts to get pretty technical and boring for most people, understandably).

Also, as a side note: I'm not pulling this information out of thin air, I went to school for 6 years to be a Vehicle Engineer, so if anyone wants to know exactly where all this information comes from I can dig out my textbooks and cite all of my sources. I can't cite the anecdotal tips & tricks (because they are simply things I have learned throughout my years driving through the snow & ice) but I can cite the technical data that supports them.

 

[Shrink]

They still make rear wheel drive cars? Most likely a new car is FWD or AWD. Maybe a better shot at RWD for a pickup.

Yup, my BMW M Roadster is RWD. No too swell on snow, but you can haul ass and corner like it's on rails. Also can do controlled power slide.

My guess is that only high performance roadsters, sports cars and high performance coups have RWD now.

 

[steviem]

I always thought that under steer was the tyres not being able to deal with all of the forces acting on them, so I'd always let go (slowly) of the pedal and steer into it. With a rear slide, hitting the gas should put the rear back into check and follow the front again. (In a front wheel drive car)

 

[G51989]

That's the problem with your average American. This is why we have all these issues with gas and that's also the reason why I hate larger pickups and SUVs. You just can't see anything in front of them and they tend to ignore everybody because with their size it's not their problem. .

I had a 1993 Honda Accord 5 speed as my first car, it had a 2.2 F series engine, which produced 145hp/115ftlbs ( something like that ), and it had pep for such a little car, but it got about 22mpg city, and 29 highway.

My Crown Vic has twice the power, is slightly faster, is much larger/safer, has a nice smooth V8 engine, and gets 19mpg city and 27mpg highway. I'd say thats damn good gas mileage. And you have a point, I NEVER get cut off, ever. Could be because from a slight distance, it looks like a police cruiser

And lets be honest: I don't care how much gas's costs. I don't have income issues.

You don't need nearly as big numbers out of the 4-cyl simply because the car itself is much lighter, far more aerodynamic and awd. It's just a superior design to begin with, that's all. There is a reason why they stopped making CVs you know.

.

Yes, its 30 years newer, so I'd hope so. CVs were gone for a couple of reasons, alot of it to do with ****** government emissions ******** ( and the tooling was worn to the point where it just wasn't worth replacing ), and the new Tuarus Platform is just that much better. Doesn't mean I'll stop driving CVs.

And sure, its lighter, smaller, and its AWD. But I still don't want it, and have zero urge to own one as a fun car, or a DD. The interiors are so cramped in the WRX's its completely insane. And, AWD is pretty useless to me for DDing.

When you lose - you lose, sound or not. But down the road you might be interested in one of those newer Porsches. They have engine sound going through the speakers. A perfect poser mobile.

Well, considing I'm almost putting down 700 horsepower, I wouldn't call it a poser mobile, if I changed the rear gearing and put slicks on it, I'd be into the low 10s, no problem. Not a lot of cars can keep up with me. I don't think some people realize how much almost 700 horsepower is.

As for V8 engine sound, I've been in a Grand National that had very loud mufflers. Sure it was relatively fast but it invoked actual headache in about 15 mins of driving. Thanks but no thanks.

I'd take that nice sexy v8 rumble over that ****** 4 banger weed wacker sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE1wQ_DxvVQ

My car kinda sounds like that....probably because it has the same engine.....and a bigger blower.....only those guys are only making about 400-500 from what I understand.

You see the Japanese rice fly past at about 45 seconds in, then Detroit muscle takes over

And as far as loud goes, it does get annoying. Which is why I have remote electronic cut outs, I can basically be on open headers, or be nice and quiet.


I like the WRX STi's, and the EVOs, and cars such as that, but they aren't for me. Out of 10 you see, only 1-2 are modified to the point where it matters, the other 8 are just a bunch of ****s wearing monster hats who put an exhaust and an over sized BOV on it and think they're ken block.

The only Japanese car I would consider would be a LFA....so....yeah don't make the kinda money...an ISF, to slow for the money. Or a GTR, which I could in theroy afford, but I'd rather grab a gently used Z06 for half the money, then dump 30 grand into mods.

Never say never. It is a Ford after all.

Have you driven a Ford.....lately!

I will say one thing about subies, my one friend accidentally drained his automatic transmission in his forester, then put the oil in the engine, then attempted to drive it for a solid 10 minutes, I am amazed the engine or the trannie came out of that one alive.

So it's all about looks and sound then. How unsurprising.

Yep, looks, sound. And being able to bury my speedo in an amount of time thats a little bit stupid.

When it comes to total storage space, a WRX hatch will eat your car in total volume for lunch. Just put the rear seats down in it and you can stick a lot of things in there. As for carrying people, generally I tend to stay out of the Taxi business but it is comfy enough for 4 people and 5 is doable. That's enough for me.

It would, but I have an old pile of **** 1992 Ford Ranger that my grandpa had laying around that I just kinda...took. So I use that whenever I need to move ****, park it behind the garage, looks like ****. But runs great.

And sure, you could fit 5 ppl in a WRX, but it'll be so camped it just wont be fun.

And I love being the Taxi service, whenever we go anywhere, we always pile into the vic, because its like being in a giant couch. That and I normally am the DD, because I tend to make bad choices when I drink in public lol.

Are you sure? With all this Crown Vic talk you sound a bit 80ish to me.

Nah, my Penis still works. We're good.

Be that as it may, manual is almost always more reliable. And it's far more fun to drive. If it's not manual, I don't even look at it as a car.

Totally depends on who makes the transmission.

And who builds it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJtJUVyEyYY

That is why you don't drop an LS7 into a Firebird and leave the transmission+ clutch bone dead stock

It's not that Im a fanboi for american cars, I like euro cars and some japanese cars as much as the next guy.

But its that I can pull SO much more power out of a typical American V8 muscle car or sedan for so much less money, and it tends to hold that power so much better.

That video does give me a good idea, idk how fast the Marauder will go, the speedo only goes to 140, and I can bury it pretty quickly.

 

[LumbermanSVO]

I prefer a RWD with a stick that has been aged at least 20 years.

I work on my cars myself and any car that fits that description will be fairly cheap to buy, insurance will be cheap, parts will be cheap and all the info needed to repair them can be found online for free. I will get an automatic if the price is right though.

As for driving in the snow, the driver matters FAR more than the car. If I can drive a RWD vehicle with WAY to much rear tire, not nearly enough weight out back, WAY too much torque and a non-synchronized manual trans through the Rocky Mountain snow storms without chains and be just fine, then just about any car will work if you just take the time to learn how to drive it.

The second biggest factor IMO is tires. If you live in a snowy place then you should own a set of Blizzacks or similar tire for the winter. A side benefit to that is being able to have a set of real summer or LRR tires the rest of the year.

As for a fun car? I have no doubt that the new Mini's are fun with all the great things that have been said about them. I do prefer a light weight car for fun, and my next fun car will probably be a Caterham 7 with a base Duratech and 5-speed.

My last fun car had a turbo 4 running 22lbs of boost with a "few" breathing improvements, a 5-speed and it was stripped down to 2600lbs. The interior consisted of a dash shell to hold up the gauges, two seats, a shifter and a single sheet of Dynamat Extreme on the roof, no A/C, no heat, no carpet, no panels, nothing. I have no idea how much power it made or the times it ran, but it was an absolute blast to drive when the weather allowed.

 

[Synchromesh]

I had a 1993 Honda Accord 5 speed as my first car, it had a 2.2 F series engine, which produced 145hp/115ftlbs ( something like that ), and it had pep for such a little car, but it got about 22mpg city, and 29 highway.

You got your numbers all wrong. I too had a '93 Accord 5-speed and they came with 2 engines for US - 125hp/137lbft for DX/LX or 140hp/145lbft for EX/SE. These were quite slow - my LX took about 9.2s to get to 60 which is not fast by any means. The EX was probably similar as it was slightly heavier.

And sure, its lighter, smaller, and its AWD. But I still don't want it, and have zero urge to own one as a fun car, or a DD. The interiors are so cramped in the WRX's its completely insane. And, AWD is pretty useless to me for DDing.

What do you need all this room for unless you're 6'4/350? And if you are then maybe it's time to lose some weight? I mean I can understand when somebody has a family but if you just drive yourself what's the point of having a gigantic boat with all this extra room?

I daily drove an NA Miata (that's '90-97 version) for several summers and for most occasions it was just fine. Didn't require tons of room to get my butt to work. Subaru is cavernous compared to that car. In certain ways it's a bit too big.

I'd take that nice sexy v8 rumble over that ****** 4 banger weed wacker sound

The Miata I owned had a tuned exhaust from the factory and it sounded awesome. No lawnmower sounds on that one. As for your lovely-sounding V8 it will never sound like a V12 Ferrari so it's all moot.

I like the WRX STi's, and the EVOs, and cars such as that, but they aren't for me. Out of 10 you see, only 1-2 are modified to the point where it matters, the other 8 are just a bunch of ****s wearing monster hats who put an exhaust and an over sized BOV on it and think they're ken block.

Surprisingly I agree with that. Too many kids drive WRXs nowadays. Which is why mine is mostly stock. I did make a few minor mods but they were all practical.

Have you driven a Ford.....lately!

Yes, I have. Drove a Focus twice a couple of years ago. It was a piece of crap. The only Ford I'd consider is the Shelby Mustang or maybe a GT. Everything else they make is garbage. And the fact that Toyota/Honda consistently outsold them for over 15 years on cars is a living proof of that.

And sure, you could fit 5 ppl in a WRX, but it'll be so camped it just wont be fun.

No need for that. Most of my friends have their own cars. I don't think I ever had more than 4 people at a time in that car.

Totally depends on who makes the transmission.

And who builds it.

Severely modded cars are a different story entirely. I was talking about factory parts more or less.

It's not that Im a fanboi for american cars, I like euro cars and some japanese cars as much as the next guy.

If you're not an American car fanboi I sure would like to know who is. Let me just leave this here:

You see the Japanese rice fly past at about 45 seconds in, then Detroit muscle takes over

That video does give me a good idea, idk how fast the Marauder will go, the speedo only goes to 140, and I can bury it pretty quickly.

I'd pay to see you do that around here. If a cop sees you (and you bet your butt they will at some point) you are going to jail faster than you can say 140mph. Top speed never mattered much to me as living in MA there aren't many places where you can go over 100 anyway. And cops here are pretty awful.

It looks like we'll never reach consensus since we subscribe to very different schools of thought. But we can continue arguing if you enjoy it so much.

 

[quagmire]

Yes, I have. Drove a Focus twice a couple of years ago. It was a piece of crap. The only Ford I'd consider is the Shelby Mustang or maybe a GT. Everything else they make is garbage. And the fact that Toyota/Honda consistently outsold them for over 15 years on cars is a living proof of that.

Have you been in the new 2012 Focus and not the old POS one that dated back to 2000?

Anyway, I would be careful with the sales argument( though I get trapped in it as well). Windows has a higher marketshare than OS X. Does that mean Windows is better? Or Samsung's phones outsell the iPhone. Does it mean Samsung produces the better phone? Just because Toyota/Honda outsells Ford/GM today based on the perception of their vehicles( which Ford and GM earned) doesn't mean their current offerings are crap.

 

[steviem]

Android phones outsold the iPhone too, what does that say?

I have a POS 2001 Focus that was given to me. It's OK, and really I'm just waiting for the title to arrive so I can trade it in for something better.

Anyway, that wasn't my point. The 2012 Explorer, Mustang GT, Mustang V6, Fusion and Taurus are all good cars, compared to my Focus, they're amazing cars! The V6 was too quiet for me in a Mustang, but the GT was lovely (just needed a manual transmission, but they were all rentals). The Explorer was big, but had some really nice 4wd features, was really comfy and had a rear camera, the interface was pretty nice too.

 

[codymac]

Every time I see someone driving an Elise, a Porsche, a 2-seater Bimmer, or the like, I cringe and think, "Gee, they'd be having a ton more fun in a Corvette..."

Maybe, but the cost of entry is pretty high for a Corvette. Some of us just won't ever be fat enough or bald enough to qualify for a 'Vette.

The Lotus does have an amenities edge over a 60's Bug: Bugs don't have AC. Nevermind that, when it's not frozen up solid, it feels like an asthmatic blowing lukewarm air through a straw from across the room. The important thing is that there's an AC button, with a light, and that's supposed to make owners feel better.

 

[quagmire]

Maybe, but the cost of entry is pretty high for a Corvette. Some of us just won't ever be fat enough or bald enough to qualify for a 'Vette.

And the cost of entry to those vehicles aren't high? The Z4 is pretty expensive, the Elise also costs $50K, Porsche's are expensive, etc.

Though crediability does go down when you bring in stereotypes/perception into it. If you don't buy a good car because it has a certain perception/image, that says a lot about yourself. People can see 'Vette's for people who are in a mid-life crisis, gold-chain wearing, etc people while they enjoy seeing my 'Vette's backside in their M3(if I had a Corvette myself and had track experience, etc).

BMW's image of being driven by jerks, people who think they own the road, etc won't prevent me from buying one.

 

[jasonvp]

Maybe, but the cost of entry is pretty high for a Corvette.

Really? From an all-out performance perspective, the Corvette continually wins the bang-for-buck title. Sure, you can price out a brand new Z06 (or ZR1 like mine) and come close to the 100K mark. But you can also get a base Corvette, which is a very stout car, for a lot less than that.

Some of us just won't ever be fat enough or bald enough

or smart enough, apparently,

to qualify for a 'Vette.

It's interesting you have to dig at Corvette owners like that to get your point across. I'm neither fat, nor bald, (nor old, really) and I "qualified" for a Corvette by buying one from a Chevy dealer. But, never mind that, continue living in your world of stereotypes; you'll never get to enjoy a truly fun car.

jas

 

[Muscle Master]

If I had to drive a Wrong wheel drive car... it would be a GM car with the hyper strut technology... no torque steer at all..

Test drove a new Lacrosse and driving normally around the city.. I couldn't tell which wheel was driving the car

 

[G51989]

You got your numbers all wrong. I too had a '93 Accord 5-speed and they came with 2 engines for US - 125hp/137lbft for DX/LX or 140hp/145lbft for EX/SE. These were quite slow - my LX took about 9.2s to get to 60 which is not fast by any means. The EX was probably similar as it was slightly heavier.

Well, its been over a decade since I owned it. I didn't think it was that slow lol.

What do you need all this room for unless you're 6'4/350? And if you are then maybe it's time to lose some weight? I mean I can understand when somebody has a family but if you just drive yourself what's the point of having a gigantic boat with all this extra room?

Well, I'm 6' 4" and 230lbs, I do hit the gym a bit, I wouldn't say I need to loose weight.

Now my GF on the other head clocks in at 110lbs and 5' 1"....wait...lol

Its not that I NEED the Room, but I go on a ton of road trips every year, easily 1000 each way, all the time. I like having a nice big comfy car to do it in. Plus, tons of room for more people.

I daily drove an NA Miata (that's '90-97 version) for several summers and for most occasions it was just fine. Didn't require tons of room to get my butt to work. Subaru is cavernous compared to that car. In certain ways it's a bit too big.

Smallest car I've ever owned was a Chrysler Lebaron Convertible ( It was cheap, after I totaled my accord ), talk about uncomfy inside! I took a 21 hour drive to Tallahassee FL in it a couple of times, swear to god my ass was gonna fall off at the end of each run lol.

The Miata I owned had a tuned exhaust from the factory and it sounded awesome. No lawnmower sounds on that one. As for your lovely-sounding V8 it will never sound like a V12 Ferrari so it's all moot.

I can be louder if I want to, doesn't mean it'll sound as good though lol.

And Miatas? Driven them before, fun in the bends, but a total lack of power anywhere else. And getting into a crash in a beer can isnt a good idea.

Surprisingly I agree with that. Too many kids drive WRXs nowadays. Which is why mine is mostly stock. I did make a few minor mods but they were all practical.

I like em, I understand they are great cars. Just not my thing. I want 8 cylinders. Or more.

Yes, I have. Drove a Focus twice a couple of years ago. It was a piece of crap. The only Ford I'd consider is the Shelby Mustang or maybe a GT. Everything else they make is garbage. And the fact that Toyota/Honda consistently outsold them for over 15 years on cars is a living proof of that.

Yeah, thats a joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccVYGf4Djg

And I think Ford has really stepped it up in the past 5 years, so much better than what they once were. And personally, I'd buy a Honda. I love Honda, but not toyota. I hate em. Souless toasters.

Though with the 01 Grand Marquis LS I had, ( bought that certfied used ).

In the 200ish thousand miles I had it, the only thing that ever went wrong with it was the rear end seal where the U Joint goes into the rear end went at like 110,000 miles. 150 dollar fix.

Now when it comes to Pickup trucks, and commerical vehicals, I do think Ford blows away anything coming out of Japan, Tundra? Titan? Tacoma? Junk. Gimmie a Ford F250 Powerstroke .

No need for that. Most of my friends have their own cars. I don't think I ever had more than 4 people at a time in that car.

Well, whenever we all go out, its cheaper to take one care and have a DD ( typically me or my GF, lately more her. Because the local Brewery has some awesome new stuff ) Parking is like 25 dollars a car per 6 hours down there, its insane, so its about 100 dollars cheaper to take 1 car, and less of a pain in the ass finding people. And even with the full 5 people, everyone still has lots of room.

Severely modded cars are a different story entirely. I was talking about factory parts more or less.

Yeah, so was I. Some automatics are great, some are bad. The Automatics found in the Crown Vics have a great track record when maintained. I love the deep gearing, when your at wide open throttle, it won't shift to 2nd gear till 50mph lol.

If you're not an American car fanboi I sure would like to know who is. Let me just leave this here:

I just perfer them. My respect for a ferrari is endless, the prowess of something like a WRX, STi or GTR is totally awesome.

However, I'll still take my Big Ford over them, ( Or the Z06 if I decide to get rid of the Boxster and get my big Chevy )

I'd pay to see you do that around here. If a cop sees you (and you bet your butt they will at some point) you are going to jail faster than you can say 140mph. Top speed never mattered much to me as living in MA there aren't many places where you can go over 100 anyway. And cops here are pretty awful.

I got a couple places, in " mexico "

 

[polotska]

Traction avant.