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We actually have numbers.
Under Windows, laptops outsell stationary systems not quite 2:1.
Under MacOS we don't have as good numbers, but it has been estimated to be 5-6:1.

Stated a bit provocatively: Apples desktops would sell more if they sucked less.

I don't really know who came up with the holy product matrix Apple still seemingly adheres to, but there is little question that the desktop systems really got the dirty end of the stick. It is a bit unfortunate because statistics suggest that with minor modifications Apple could easily increase their sales by taking back desktop sales from Windows. But that would require for instance good I/O connectivity and monitor support. Being able to add something as simple as an m.2 SSD would help too as would being able to plug other devices into the typically nice iMac screens. (The last two being features that have been actively removed.)

Yes I will agree that Apple needs to improve their desktop offerings. The tiny Mac Mini and the all-in-one iMac simply don't offer enough choice for consumers.

But I doubt we'll ever see a consumer desktop Mac with replaceable M.2 storage or RAM slots ever again.

Apple offers those features in the Mac Pro... but that system starts at $6,000

:p
 
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It is a bit unfortunate because statistics suggest that with minor modifications Apple could easily increase their sales by taking back desktop sales from Windows.
Likely at the expense of notebook sales. Apple has no interest in that. There is a reason that Apple’s lowest priced Mac is a desktop. Apple has little interest in selling more Macs at a lower price.
 
... I suspect either the M2 or M3 will raise the max RAM to 32. That would make the cheapest mini with it $1299. Unless they also use that opportunity to raise the base from 8 to 16, in which case it might end up being $1099.

(I wish there were a 32 GiB M1. I would have happily bought an iMac with that config earlier this year.)

That is a good point. As time goes on that RAM floor will raise... but in the past, the amount of RAM needed did as well. Maybe that won't be as much the case these days.

The big thing is having the available options though, and having them independent enough from each other. One should be able to get the lower core/GPU counts with more RAM, or more cores w/o needing as much GPU/RAM, etc. They are a bit too tied together right now, though I kind of doubt that is going to change too much.

I'm also needing a reasonable GPU, so I'd probably be looking at the Pro minimally (or I'd be taking a back-step on GPU power). Again, I really hope Apple brings back the eGPU in some form, whether that be AMD support, or their own eGPU units.

Plus, with the SSD, just get an external SSD. Typically not as fast, but much, much cheaper. Get ~512 GiB for your internal SSD — maybe 256, maybe 1 TiB — and then just add external storage. With Apple, the 1 TiB option is $400 on top of whatever the 256 GiB already costs. With Samsung, you can get a 1 TiB for $150 total.

With RAM, that's not an option, alas. Get as much RAM as you need. Not much more (because it's pricey), but not less. With the SSD, get as much storage as you always need with you.

Exactly. Unless we're talking about a laptop, the internal SSD can be almost OS + a few apps/docs, and then whatever scratch-space you need. On my mini, I have 256 GB SSD and usually have ~ 120 GB free at least. Then I have a couple external SSDs (one for Bootcamp, one for the Mac side for extra storage). While the internal SSD is faster, I don't really notice. I move projects to the the internal SSD when working on them.

I just don't need all that much expensive internal storage. I'm guessing most people are still stuck in the mentality of having their entire 'life' on that internal SSD, like we used to so with big, cheap spinning disks. Fortunately (I guess), I was too budget limited quite some time ago, so was forced to make that transition to not storing everything on the internal. It is a bit of mindset/organization shift, but once you make the leap, it saves a lot of money.

We actually have numbers.
Under Windows, laptops outsell stationary systems not quite 2:1.
Under MacOS we don't have as good numbers, but it has been estimated to be 5-6:1.

Stated a bit provocatively: Apples desktops would sell more if they sucked less.

I don't really know who came up with the holy product matrix Apple still seemingly adheres to, but there is little question that the desktop systems really got the dirty end of the stick. It is a bit unfortunate because statistics suggest that with minor modifications Apple could easily increase their sales by taking back desktop sales from Windows. But that would require for instance good I/O connectivity and monitor support. Being able to add something as simple as an m.2 SSD would help too as would being able to plug other devices into the typically nice iMac screens. (The last two being features that have been actively removed.)

I agree and disagree. I don't think the key anymore is so much the ability to modify and expand the build, so much as it is the ability to just get a good mid-high tier machine that isn't a Mac Pro (at Mac Pro pricing). The rest of Apple's line up is pretty powerful (at the top-end of consumer computing), UNTIL you need to do something a bit heavier.

That might be crunching your movie collection, some pro task like 3D rendering, or trying to do some gaming. Then, anything but the Mac Pro kind of falls apart. They can't handle the heat w/o taking damage and sounding like you installed a new A/C unit on your desk. Or, they can't do it at all (ie. no GPU with enough power available, or can't run said GPU in Windows w/o major contortions, etc.).

That world between the consumer and corporate pro might not be as big as it once was*, and certainly any where near the size of the consumer group. But, it isn't exactly a small group either. What always amazes and frustrates me, is how easily Apple could own that market, yet they don't seem to care (or maybe aren't even aware they aren't hitting it... one gets the impression they *think* their pro, non-Mac Pro machines are ideal).

The new 16" seems like it might hit that target, but it is kind of big and expensive. The new iMac Pro might, as well as the mini Pro, we'll have to wait and see. But, remember you can get a pretty competent PC these days a bit over $2k, even with the absurd GPU pricing. Apple *should* compete with that for under $3k. I've always been willing to pay the 'Apple Tax' but there's only so far I can go (or I'd have a Mac Pro under my desk).

(* It is actually bigger, I think, in terms of numbers of people. But, I mean more the machine. For a good while, the Mac Pro was more in financial reach to the non-corporate pros. Even a refurb Mac Pro with a reasonable GPU is over $12k Canadian these days. It might be a fantastic machine, but that's too much. Years ago, one could have a Mac Pro type box even for a few thousand to $5k or $6k. It's like we're back in the Mac IIfx days again, but at least their were better middle options back then.)
 
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The big thing is having the available options though, and having them independent enough from each other. One should be able to get the lower core/GPU counts with more RAM, or more cores w/o needing as much GPU/RAM, etc. They are a bit too tied together right now, though I kind of doubt that is going to change too much.

BTO on Apple silicon means more SKUs for the SoC/RAM/SSD/mobo combo, so I would think Apple wants to keep those at a minimum...

I'm also needing a reasonable GPU, so I'd probably be looking at the Pro minimally (or I'd be taking a back-step on GPU power). Again, I really hope Apple brings back the eGPU in some form, whether that be AMD support, or their own eGPU units.

The whole UMA thing kills that, all indications show that discrete GPUs are a thing of the past with Apple silicon...

Exactly. Unless we're talking about a laptop, the internal SSD can be almost OS + a few apps/docs, and then whatever scratch-space you need. On my mini, I have 256 GB SSD and usually have ~ 120 GB free at least. Then I have a couple external SSDs (one for Bootcamp, one for the Mac side for extra storage). While the internal SSD is faster, I don't really notice. I move projects to the the internal SSD when working on them.

Apple storage is not cheap, but I would get a 1TB SSD just to have the fast swap when needed...?

I agree and disagree. I don't think the key anymore is so much the ability to modify and expand the build, so much as it is the ability to just get a good mid-high tier machine that isn't a Mac Pro (at Mac Pro pricing). The rest of Apple's line up is pretty powerful (at the top-end of consumer computing), UNTIL you need to do something a bit heavier.

I enjoyed building my own PCs, I enjoyed building my own Mac towers (G4 days, when I did some side work for a friends tiny Mac consulting & repair shop); but these days I am more happy to just buy a unit ready to go... Looking forward to a M1 Max (or maybe even a M1 Max Duo) Mac mini...

The new 16" seems like it might hit that target, but it is kind of big and expensive. The new iMac Pro might, as well as the mini Pro, we'll have to wait and see. But, remember you can get a pretty competent PC these days a bit over $2k, even with the absurd GPU pricing. Apple *should* compete with that for under $3k. I've always been willing to pay the 'Apple Tax' but there's only so far I can go (or I'd have a Mac Pro under my desk).

Actually, buying a complete PC seems to be one of the cheaper ways to get a new GPU, because complete PCs do not seem to be suffering the massive price increase that singleton GPUs are demanding...

Some folks out there are even buying pre-builts just to strip the GPU out & selling off the remaining components/chassis...!

It's like we're back in the Mac IIfx days again, but at least their were better middle options back then.)

Ah, the Mac IIfx, good times...! Talk about overpriced hardware...! ;^p

One of my past clients had a IIfx, pushed it hard, what with just using it as a word processor...! /s
 
That is a good point. As time goes on that RAM floor will raise... but in the past, the amount of RAM needed did as well. Maybe that won't be as much the case these days.

The big thing is having the available options though, and having them independent enough from each other. One should be able to get the lower core/GPU counts with more RAM, or more cores w/o needing as much GPU/RAM, etc. They are a bit too tied together right now, though I kind of doubt that is going to change too much.

BTO on Apple silicon means more SKUs for the SoC/RAM/SSD/mobo combo, so I would think Apple wants to keep those at a minimum...

Sure, BTO SKUs play a role here, but it's more that the M1's design is simply limited in that regard. The memory controller takes two RAM chips and that's it, and they have to be on the package for latency reasons.

With LPDDR5 (which the M1 Pro has but the M1 doesn't yet), I think the density may have increased, so they might be able to fit 16/32 where they were previously able to fit 8/16.

The whole UMA thing kills that, all indications show that discrete GPUs are a thing of the past with Apple silicon...

Yeah, that seems to be true. It's interesting that they created all the groundwork for eGPU (such as hot-swapping it at runtime without crashing) and then abandoned the idea just a few years later.
 
And more expensive
Long ago I had a co-worker who, every time Intel came out with a new chip, when they went from the 8086 to the 80286, then then 80386, etc., he would buy one. He didn't do anything that really "needed" the horsepower, he just had to have the latest and greatest. And back then, each of those iterations cost him about $4K every time he upgraded. I'd buy his "castoffs" from him at pennies on the dollar. He was happy and so was I. ;-)
 
Why are so many of you hellbent that Intel folds? Is your fanboyism so great that you actually want a monopoly? Do you not remember what lack of competition looked like for Intel? Consumers lost for years.

You really want that to happen again?

Perhaps this was just an observation of incredulousness at how hard it is or Intel to pivot rather than a celebration?
 
So the one company that will make the most powerful cpus that would benefit gaming are the one company making an OS on which, bar a handful of big titles, doesn’t have any gaming on it.
game markers will go where the action is. they are at the end of the day content providers not hardware designers.
 
That doesn't make ANY sense !

They've already over-shot their existing market by a wide margin !

The M1 Pro & M1 Max are over-kill for 99.9% of Apple's existing customer base !

I suspect what we're hearing about now is the 911 GT3 version, good for press coverage, but NOT a volume driver !
Apple are working with users of 3D software, high end film post-production and so on asking where the bottle necks are, what they want solved or enabled. They don't not want to address the needs of this market how ever niche it is because it's the forerunner of many things that enter the prosumer and consumer markets for one thing. Apple seems to understand these days the consequences of abandoning it (or alienating it as the did with the arrogance around the FCP X launch and EOL of FCP 7). Also they seem to want to be more than a car company, they still love trucks to use Jobs' well known metaphor for iPads vs laptops & desktops.
 
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