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Linux "better support" is just reimplementing Windows, "wine" or "proton" are just an implementation of all the required Windows API. It allows playing Windows games, of course, but how many native Linux games are there out there?

I don't care how they are doing it, in the end the game works and works well. Valve officially supports Linux by making Windows games work on it. While you can achieve similar things using WINE on MacOS, still Apple did nothing to improve on any thing. All they did is release their soon to fail Apple Arcade subscription program to play games that hardly have any fan base.
 
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How is this possible, even if Parallels run on M1 and you somehow get your hands on Windows ARM the games are still x86?!

It's pretty amazing when you think about the fact that you're running a x86 game inside Windows 10 on ARM that emulates x86, inside a virtual machine like Parallels, inside Mac OS on M1. It's multiple layers of emulation. :)


 
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It's pretty amazing when you think about the fact that you're running a x86 game inside Windows 10 on ARM that emulates x86, inside a virtual machine like Parallels, inside Mac OS on M1. It's multiple layers of emulation. :)



I am using this setup to play Yuri's Revenge on my M1 Macbook Air. So happy with my machine now. 2 of favorite 4 games now covered. I will have to live with that.
 
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I am using this setup to play Yuri's Revenge on my M1 Macbook Air. So happy with my machine now. 2 of favorite 4 games now covered. I will have to live with that.

And that's 32-bit I assume on Big Sur that can't run 32-bit. Crossover also found a way to translate 32-bit apps/games to 64-bit. :)
 
Does Metal replace Open GL or is Metal being run on top of Open GL?

Metal has been replacing OpenGL for some years. 2018 Apple announced that OpenGL and OpenCL are deprecated but will still be supported. Game developers like Feral have been using Metal since 2017. Feral had to wait for Metal 2 to be able to port Deus Ex Mankind Divided in 2017. OpenGL runs "on top of" Metal.
 
It's pretty amazing when you think about the fact that you're running a x86 game inside Windows 10 on ARM that emulates x86, inside a virtual machine like Parallels, inside Mac OS on M1. It's multiple layers of emulation. :)



I can't accept this...my brain is not able to process that many layers of translations. It was mind boggling just to be able to run Windows app on Mac, or a SNES games in an emulator...but ...

x86 3D triple A game emulated inside Win10-ARM on Parallels VM on MacOS ARM...what the... that thing should move in 1 frame per 3 seconds and the fans should be hitting the four walls of the room meanwhile the aluminum enclosure would be bubbling. And all of this on a Macbook Air!? Not even a dedicated GPU...what the...

I remember I tried a GameCube game on an older Air like 2011 on Dolphin...it was terrible it barely moved. Gamecube was 10 year old tech. This thing...This thing is running 2020 games inside a x86 emulator over ARM Windows in a VM on top of MacOS on ARM chip at 60fps....what the...

source.gif
 
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I am using this setup to play Yuri's Revenge on my M1 Macbook Air. So happy with my machine now. 2 of favorite 4 games now covered. I will have to live with that.

Any hiccups or slowdowns? I remember those RTS move in slow motion once there are many units on screen
What are your other favorite 3 games? and why the other 2 would not work?
 
Apple should put some money into this transition from gaming POV , no other way to jump start this , with DX being locking down PC gaming to windows the only way to change it is to put money behind the developers , once there is a sufficient momentum , then Apple HW & API`s can make the difference and drive things forward , note that Apple API`s going forward will be optimize between their GPU`s/CPU`s/Neural engine and what not , they control the entire widget , so i feel that they can make better usage of low level API`s then Windows can when they need to support the entire range of HW out there.

MacRumors posted an article about Tom hanks movie costing 70M Usd , i read on Ars that a AAA game port from windows to MacOS is around 3-5m depending on the size of the game , so you can fit ~20 AAA game ports in that same amount of money , if Apple can bring 20-30 popular AAA games to run natively on their HW it will be a MAJOR step forward to show case what they can do in that space.

Lastly , GPU for consumers are a nightmare now days with prices out of this world + frustration to no end getting one. , getting a powerful M1X in a competitive price seems like a reality now , if the GPU can play those AAA in good performance i can see it as a great time to market those machines to gamers , assuming Apple can pay to get some high profile ports.

What do you guys think the GPU`s will look like in the M1X or whatever the name will be ? do you think it will have the memory BW required to feed those GPU`s?
 
I believe @leman has mentioned that TBDR architectures are not bandwidth sensitive. At this point if developers follow down 4A Games footsteps you are going to see games that just cannot run on Apples hardware, until they reach feature parity.

Alternatively, I’d like to see this kind of game running on Apples hardware.
 
MacRumors posted an article about Tom hanks movie costing 70M Usd , i read on Ars that a AAA game port from windows to MacOS is around 3-5m depending on the size of the game , so you can fit ~20 AAA game ports in that same amount of money , if Apple can bring 20-30 popular AAA games to run natively on their HW it will be a MAJOR step forward to show case what they can do in that space.

These price quotes are completely insane. But yeah, if a game was developed with no consideration to portability and the code quality is poor, porting is a substantial effort. That's why I don't believe in ports. Games have to be designed with cross-portability in mind from the start. Porting will only produce poor quality software that will completely break down at any major patch.

Lastly , GPU for consumers are a nightmare now days with prices out of this world + frustration to no end getting one. , getting a powerful M1X in a competitive price seems like a reality now , if the GPU can play those AAA in good performance i can see it as a great time to market those machines to gamers , assuming Apple can pay to get some high profile ports.

If AAA gaming has any future on Mac, it can not be limited to prosumer hardware. Mac market is already small, and prosumer stuff is just a small fraction of that. The wast majority of Mac users will be using the M1 (or it's successors), so that is the hardware the games must target.

M1 is already fairly capable. I am quite sure that something like Cyberpunk 2077 would run on M1 at fullHD med settings with playable frame rates if the engine was ported to Metal taking advantage of Apple-specific features.

What do you guys think the GPU`s will look like in the M1X or whatever the name will be ? do you think it will have the memory BW required to feed those GPU`s?

It will just have more GPU Cores and more RAM bandwidth. Apple GPUs don't need much to begin with.
 
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These price quotes are completely insane. But yeah, if a game was developed with no consideration to portability and the code quality is poor, porting is a substantial effort. That's why I don't believe in ports. Games have to be designed with cross-portability in mind from the start. Porting will only produce poor quality software that will completely break down at any major patch.



If AAA gaming has any future on Mac, it can not be limited to prosumer hardware. Mac market is already small, and prosumer stuff is just a small fraction of that. The wast majority of Mac users will be using the M1 (or it's successors), so that is the hardware the games must target.

M1 is already fairly capable. I am quite sure that something like Cyberpunk 2077 would run on M1 at fullHD med settings with playable frame rates if the engine was ported to Metal taking advantage of Apple-specific features.



It will just have more GPU Cores and more RAM bandwidth. Apple GPUs don't need much to begin with.
I am not sure CDPR is best example you want to use, as the game runs like garbage on last gen hardware and not that great on current gen hardware. Or at least it would closer match your concern about poor quality code, lol. I say this as I have the game for my PS5, and it looks (/runs like) meh running PS4 Pro codebase. There is a reason Sony pulled it from the online store, lol.
 
I am not sure CDPR is best example you want to use, as the game runs like garbage on last gen hardware and not that great on current gen hardware. Or at least it would closer match your concern about poor quality code, lol. I say this as I have the game for my PS5, and it looks (/runs like) meh running PS4 Pro codebase. There is a reason Sony pulled it from the online store, lol.

Ah, well, it's a typical example of too much ambition and incompetent management. The end product ended up rather disappointing and really missed its potential. But hat off to the design team, the architecture and the city are fantastic. It's just sad that the gameplay is terrible and the story is boring.
 
Does Metal replace Open GL or is Metal being run on top of Open GL?

OpenGL runs on top of Metal on M1 Macs, Intel Macs have separate OpenGL drivers (which is probably one of the reasons why OpenGL apps run so well M1 machines, as Apple Metal drivers are much more mature and stable).
 
Any hiccups or slowdowns? I remember those RTS move in slow motion once there are many units on screen
What are your other favorite 3 games? and why the other 2 would not work?

Yuris Revenge works beautifully with todays processors in a VM.

my game needs on my M1 air are simple as I have the iMac 2020 bootcamped for RDR2, GTAV, etc. So on my notebook I like Planet Coaster (native Mac) and C&C (Parallels). Missing are Planet Zoo and Jurassic Evo which both require bootcamp as they do not work in Parallels.
 
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Does Metal replace Open GL or is Metal being run on top of Open GL?

It's just like the old XCode vs CodeWarrior moments from long ago.

Apple warned developers long ago, "Stop using CodeWarrior and YOU WILL BE REALLY SORRY IF YOU CONTINUE USING CODEWARRIOR." Well...they were sorry when they didn't switch over to XCode and then had to rush into it like clowns into the clown car.

Now, Apple warned developers, "Stop using the old OpenGL and start using Metal and YOU WILL BE REALLY SORRY IF YOU CONTINUE USING THE OLD OPENGL." Guess what's happening right now due to the M1 Macs? Yeah, those still using those older OpenGL's instead of working in Metal are now scrambling (I know one personally who is) because the warning wasn't taken seriously.

Curious Post Script--The dev scramble is mainly due to those that use oddities like Java compilers that never liked Metal in the first place...
 
Apple should put some money into this transition from gaming POV , no other way to jump start this , with DX being locking down PC gaming to windows the only way to change it is to put money behind the developers , once there is a sufficient momentum , then Apple HW & API`s can make the difference and drive things forward , note that Apple API`s going forward will be optimize between their GPU`s/CPU`s/Neural engine and what not , they control the entire widget , so i feel that they can make better usage of low level API`s then Windows can when they need to support the entire range of HW out there.

MacRumors posted an article about Tom hanks movie costing 70M Usd , i read on Ars that a AAA game port from windows to MacOS is around 3-5m depending on the size of the game , so you can fit ~20 AAA game ports in that same amount of money , if Apple can bring 20-30 popular AAA games to run natively on their HW it will be a MAJOR step forward to show case what they can do in that space.

Lastly , GPU for consumers are a nightmare now days with prices out of this world + frustration to no end getting one. , getting a powerful M1X in a competitive price seems like a reality now , if the GPU can play those AAA in good performance i can see it as a great time to market those machines to gamers , assuming Apple can pay to get some high profile ports.

What do you guys think the GPU`s will look like in the M1X or whatever the name will be ? do you think it will have the memory BW required to feed those GPU`s?

No body cares about Apple gaming not even Apple themselves. Every person out there who wants to play games can make a powerful PC for much cheaper than a Mac to the specs of his liking and will be upgradable. If not, they can purchase a $400 PS5 4K Machine which is like half the price of the cheapest Mac. The target for Apple games is very very thin.

Apple cares more about movie subscription over games because Netflix 200M subscribers bring $2B a month or $24B a year. Along with streaming services like xCloud and Stadia, the target is thinner than ever. There is just no money for Apple in it. They are the richest company in the world with market cap. $2T, if they wish they can release a new console and eat PS5 and xBox for breakfast. Heck, Cook can sign a cheque for $130B to buy the whole of Sony outright before going to bed. They just don't care.

The best bet is to have some sort of a game engine or a way to make games for all platforms, no developer will spend his time making a triple A Metal game exclusive for MacOS.

Funny story, they say back in the 80s Macs were banned in offices because they were considered gaming machines compared to the IBM counterparts.

It will just have more GPU Cores and more RAM bandwidth. Apple GPUs don't need much to begin with.

Are you saying the GPU on the SoC is just as good as a dedicated GPU?

Yuris Revenge works beautifully with todays processors in a VM.

my game needs on my M1 air are simple as I have the iMac 2020 bootcamped for RDR2, GTAV, etc. So on my notebook I like Planet Coaster (native Mac) and C&C (Parallels). Missing are Planet Zoo and Jurassic Evo which both require bootcamp as they do not work in Parallels.

Why wouldn't they work in Parallels, Parallels should let every Windows app work!?

It's just like the old XCode vs CodeWarrior moments from long ago.

Apple warned developers long ago, "Stop using CodeWarrior and YOU WILL BE REALLY SORRY IF YOU CONTINUE USING CODEWARRIOR." Well...they were sorry when they didn't switch over to XCode and then had to rush into it like clowns into the clown car.

Now, Apple warned developers, "Stop using the old OpenGL and start using Metal and YOU WILL BE REALLY SORRY IF YOU CONTINUE USING THE OLD OPENGL." Guess what's happening right now due to the M1 Macs? Yeah, those still using those older OpenGL's instead of working in Metal are now scrambling (I know one personally who is) because the warning wasn't taken seriously.

Curious Post Script--The dev scramble is mainly due to those that use oddities like Java compilers that never liked Metal in the first place...

Why would developers not move to Metal? Is it because they have to learn a new language and re-write the code? If so I am very understanding. Metal is for Apple only products, and I just do not see someone out there making a full game just to run on MacOS.

I still do not understand why don't they just use Vulkan, it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Everybody wins.
 
I still do not understand why don't they just use Vulkan, it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Everybody wins.
Because they choose not to. They don't care if Vulkan runs on everything. In fact, neither does Microsoft. And in the case of Linux, they're stuck with whatever they can get.

Apple is a closed eco-system. Getting more closed every day. If you want to play PC games, buy a PC. Apple will go as far as to tell you the same thing. It may not make sense to you, but to Apple, it's perfectly in line with their thinking.

Think different.
 
No body cares about Apple gaming not even Apple themselves.

If Apple didn't care about gaming they would not invest tons of $$$ and time to design GPUs with unique gaming only features... Apple cares a lot about gaming, and the last few years of their hardware and software roadmap makes it very clear.

Every person out there who wants to play games can make a powerful PC for much cheaper than a Mac to the specs of his liking and will be upgradable. If not, they can purchase a $400 PS5 4K Machine which is like half the price of the cheapest Mac. The target for Apple games is very very thin.

There is gaming and then there is gaming. What we call "hardcore gamers" are definitely not Apple's target demographics. But home users who want to play games are.

To put to in the context of your argument, no, if you only care about gaming, there are definitely better options out there. But if you care about having a Mac (be it for work or personal computing), you should be able to use it for gaming if you so desire.

Or to put it even simpler: Apple does not care about giving you gaming super-GPUs. What they care about is putting a GPU that's good enough for gaming inside every Mac.

The best bet is to have some sort of a game engine or a way to make games for all platforms, no developer will spend his time making a triple A Metal game exclusive for MacOS.

It doesn't have to be an exclusive, games can target multiple rendering APIs. Or just use Vulkan over a Metal translation layer. Check out the recently released Metro: Last Light or Baldur's Gates 3 (which will probably be first Apple Silicon native AAA game).

Are you saying the GPU on the SoC is just as good as a dedicated GPU?

Of course it is. Apple's M1 is roughly comparable in performance to a 50-60W Nvidia Pascal GPU or a 20-30W Turing. In a game that takes full advantage of Apple's unique GPU features, M1 is basically equivalent to a GT 1650.


Why would developers not move to Metal? Is it because they have to learn a new language and re-write the code? If so I am very understanding. Metal is for Apple only products, and I just do not see someone out there making a full game just to run on MacOS.

It's the question of supply of demand. I completely agree with you that it's probably not worth it for a regular gamedev today to use Metal directly — unless they design their game from the start to be cross-platform, in which case adding direct Metal support is fairly easy. Luckily for us Mac users, most games use middleware engines that support Metal (or they use Vulkan which again can be easily utilized on macOS via MoltenVK).

As Apple Silicon market share grows and the number of people playing games increases, it will become an economic signal for the game industry, incentivizing developers to improve support and performance on Macs. That is when we will see more direct Metal support coming in. But of course, it will still take a while until Mac is seen as a platform of serious interest for game developers.

And of course, Apple Silicon Macs have a big advantage for game developers: they are a unified hardware platform with console-like level of hardware access. You don't have to worry about which features are fast or not or about some GPU-specific behavior, as all of them share the same hardware architecture. This radically simplifies engine development and reduces the amount of testing you have to do.

I still do not understand why don't they just use Vulkan, it works on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Everybody wins.
Because a) Vulkan is extremely complicated to use and Apple wanted a user-friendly API and b) Vulkan has to support a wide range of hardware, so it targets a hypothetical "common GPU architecture". Apple GPU have a lot of unique features that would require extensive Apple-specific Vulkan extensions to support properly.

Metal allows Apple to rapidly innovate in the hardware space without fighting the API, while offering a low-level software interface that exposes hardware details and makes it easy to utilize the fast path. Besides, there is the question of API usability. I have worked with most GPU APIs and I believe that Metal is hands down the best GPU API that currently exists. It's very easy to learn and use, extremely well designed, and very very powerful (especially on Apple hardware).

That said, MoltenVK works great on Apple. You can still get more performance out by using Metal directly and rewriting your engine to use unique Apple features, but as you say yourself it is more work and not always viable.
 
What unique gaming only features have they added?

Well, for one the entire TBDR thing, which is all about rasterization and shading efficiency, which again means gaming. If all you care about are professional applications you could use a much simpler GPU design and not bother with all this super-complicated stuff. Of course, one can argue that Apple has simply inherited TBDR from PowerVR architecture, so let's instead focus on Apple-only features that they have added over the last few years.

From the top of my head: tile shaders and persistent thread group memory, GPU-driven rendering pipelines, programmable multi-sampling, rasterization rate maps, sparse textures that actually offer good performance, flexible resource binding system that allows you to create complex linked data structures using compute shaders, advanced texture compression + probably other things that I forgot. And of course, some other state of the art are also supported by some modern desktop GPUs such as barycentric coordinates, layered rendering, shader-computed stencil reference values, rasterizer ordered views...
 
Well, for one the entire TBDR thing, which is all about rasterization and shading efficiency, which again means gaming. If all you care about are professional applications you could use a much simpler GPU design and not bother with all this super-complicated stuff. Of course, one can argue that Apple has simply inherited TBDR from PowerVR architecture, so let's instead focus on Apple-only features that they have added over the last few years.

From the top of my head: tile shaders and persistent thread group memory, GPU-driven rendering pipelines, programmable multi-sampling, rasterization rate maps, sparse textures that actually offer good performance, flexible resource binding system that allows you to create complex linked data structures using compute shaders, advanced texture compression + probably other things that I forgot. And of course, some other state of the art are also supported by some modern desktop GPUs such as barycentric coordinates, layered rendering, shader-computed stencil reference values, rasterizer ordered views...
Are there modern GPU’s that cannot do those things?
 
Are there modern GPU’s that cannot do those things?

Features truly exclusive to Apple GPUs (to the best of my knowledge) are tile shaders + persistent thread group memory (which in themselves are a huge feature). GPU-driven rendering pipelines (indirect rendering) are a common GPU feature used for high-performance rendering, and Metal seems to take it very seriously as there are a lot of things you can do with it (to be honest, I can't really compare it with the state of the art in DX12 and Vulkan since I lack knowledge in this particular domain).Programmable blending is supported on some low-end mobile GPUs (because they are tilers), but not on desktop GPUs. Rasterization rate maps are Apple's answer to variable rate shading, and it works very differently, but solves a similar goal. Desktop GPUs also do not support some of the advanced texture compression formats offered by Apple, but I believe this is ultimately a licensing issue. Sparse (virtual) textures have been supported by AMD and Nvidia for a while, but from what I've been told, the performance is so bad that it is basically unusable (which seems to be a limitation of the Windows driver model). Some other features like barycentric coordinates (which are useful for rendering engines) are a hit and miss (not supported universally or requires custom AMD/Nvidia extensions for use in Vulkan), but again, I might be mistaken here because Vulkan ecosystem is terribly complicated and I can't keep up with it's hundreds of extensions.

There are of course many things that desktop GPUs support while Apple GPUs do not. A notable one are mesh shaders (which are the new rendering pipeline paradigm pushed forward by Nvidia). Apple probably can't implement this fully because it violates it's TBDR architecture, but a lot of things that mesh shading is used for can be implemented on Apple GPUs using GPU-driven rendering.

Anyway, I am not trying to say that Apple GPUs are somehow more advanced or "better" than desktop GPUs from AMD or Nvidia. A claim was made that Apple does not care about gaming, and I am trying to clarify that they support many advanced features associated with modern gaming GPUs, sometimes even going a step further than Nvidia or AMD. And these features have not much use in professional applications. Their main area of use is game development. If Apple didn't care about it, they would make their life much easier by using more primitive GPU devices (like ARM Mali or Qualcomm Adreno).
 
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Features truly exclusive to Apple GPUs (to the best of my knowledge) are tile shaders + persistent thread group memory (which in themselves are a huge feature). GPU-driven rendering pipelines (indirect rendering) are a common GPU feature used for high-performance rendering, and Metal seems to take it very seriously as there are a lot of things you can do with it (to be honest, I can't really compare it with the state of the art in DX12 and Vulkan since I lack knowledge in this particular domain).Programmable blending is supported on some low-end mobile GPUs (because they are tilers), but not on desktop GPUs. Rasterization rate maps are Apple's answer to variable rate shading, and it works very differently, but solves a similar goal. Desktop GPUs also do not support some of the advanced texture compression formats offered by Apple, but I believe this is ultimately a licensing issue. Sparse (virtual) textures have been supported by AMD and Nvidia for a while, but from what I've been told, the performance is so bad that it is basically unusable (which seems to be a limitation of the Windows driver model). Some other features like barycentric coordinates (which are useful for rendering engines) are a hit and miss (not supported universally or requires custom AMD/Nvidia extensions for use in Vulkan), but again, I might be mistaken here because Vulkan ecosystem is terribly complicated and I can't keep up with it's hundreds of extensions.

There are of course many things that desktop GPUs support while Apple GPUs do not. A notable one are mesh shaders (which are the new rendering pipeline paradigm pushed forward by Nvidia). Apple probably can't implement this fully because it violates it's TBDR architecture, but a lot of things that mesh shading is used for can be implemented on Apple GPUs using GPU-driven rendering.

Anyway, I am not trying to say that Apple GPUs are somehow more advanced or "better" than desktop GPUs from AMD or Nvidia. A claim was made that Apple does not care about gaming, and I am trying to clarify that they support many advanced features associated with modern gaming GPUs, sometimes even going a step further than Nvidia or AMD. And these features have not much use in professional applications. Their main area of use is game development. If Apple didn't care about it, they would make their life much easier by using more primitive GPU devices (like ARM Mali or Qualcomm Adreno).
It could be argued that if Apple really cared about mainstream gaming, they would make their computers which are already expensive, killer gaming machines, except the game industry is not Apple centric.

I remember very specifically about 2016 when Apple decided to include dedicated graphic cards only in their top of the line MBPs $3500, which was a deal killer for me. Fortunately I retired about that time, and was no longer traveling regularly, so no longer dependent on my laptop for gaming (when traveling as I rarely travel as compared to before).

Even so, I ended up spending g $2k on an integrated graphics MBP which is kind of obscene, I do have external hard drives for storage and backup, next time I’ll look at a MacBook Air as I do nothing that is demanding on my 2016 MBP.

My fire power goes into my home built gaming PC which costs about $1500. The notion of getting what you pay for really breaks down in this department. ;)
 
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It could be argued that if Apple really cared about mainstream gaming, they would make their computers which are already expensive, killer gaming machines, except the game industry is not Apple centric.

I don't think this argument works. The thing is, Apple does not want to make killer gaming machines. This does not mean that they do not care about gaming though. They want to make excellent premium-level around machines, that are good at a number of things, which includes gaming.

To follow your line of though, could Apple have made M1 MacBook Air to be better for gaming? Yes, they could. They could have used a 16-core GPU (which would put it on part with a RTX 3060), quad-channel RAM and removed some other features (like the retina display or thunderbolt) to offset the higher cost of the chipset. They could also made it larger and added an active fan so that you can have higher sustained performance. Would it have made a better gaming machine? Absolutely. Would it have made a better all-round laptop? Certainly not.

Even so, I ended up spending g $2k on an integrated graphics MBP which is kind of obscene, I do have external hard drives for storage and backup, next time I’ll look at a MacBook Air as I do nothing that is demanding on my 2016 MBP.

Apple only sells devices in the premium segment of the market, and that's just how much stuff costs there. Look at something like Dell XPS 13" or the Microsoft Surface laptop — the later is especially a total joke when you compare it to M1 Macs (it does have a nice display though). And the larger Pro model... one likes to bring the Dell XPS 15" as a competitor to the large MBP, but the truth is, the MBP is much closer in spirit to professional laptops like Dell Precision or HP ZBook line.
 
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