Future for Mac games in M1 era

[leman]

It will be fun to see if all this effort Apple is putting forth pays off.

As it stands I am not sure Apple is going to ever see another Zenimax/Bethesda game, and with their spat with Epic most console ports are probably (maybe?) going to be out. That kind of leaves Unity (for big thirdparty game engines) and that engine hasn't produced any epic looking games (imo). It doesn't appear, as far as we all know, that Rockstar is interested in getting RAGE working on Apple hardware so that puts something like GTA6 in question. Same with CDPRs REDEngine.

Folks have been saying Apple needs first party games, so rumors have been that we are going to get a Breath of the Wild clone (so like Genshin Impact, or OceanHorn, or Immortals Pheonix Rising). Which could be a good start, maybe they will show it, or something, off at WWDC.

Unreal Engine 5 was announced with macOS support, but since the entire legal battle with Epic has started, I haven't heard anything new. I can definitely imagine Epic dropping macOS support as a petty revenge, Tim Sweeney does strike me as that kind of person (I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

As to "big" Mac games, I think Baldur's Gates III is going to make a large impact. When people see that it runs better on a passively cooled M1 Air than on a similarly priced gaming laptop (that doesn't have the battery life or the nice display), questions will be asked.

 

[laurensvo92]

Easily, they just don't care. Apple can buy both Nintendo and Sony in a blink of an eye, thats like 80% of the console market and I don't know how much of exclusive games.

Apple just don't care about games.

What would Apple gain from buying Nintendo and Sony?

 

[diamond.g]

Unreal Engine 5 was announced with macOS support, but since the entire legal battle with Epic has started, I haven't heard anything new. I can definitely imagine Epic dropping macOS support as a petty revenge, Tim Sweeney does strike me as that kind of person (I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

As to "big" Mac games, I think Baldur's Gates III is going to make a large impact. When people see that it runs better on a passively cooled M1 Air than on a similarly priced gaming laptop (that doesn't have the battery life or the nice display), questions will be asked.

I have BG3 and I am unclear on why it runs like utter crap on anything (maybe it is an Early Access failing). But that is a fair point to be made, if it looks the same and runs better on M1 that is a win for Apple.

 

[diamond.g]

What would Apple gain from buying Nintendo and Sony?

1st Party Exclusives.

 

[laurensvo92]

Unreal Engine 5 was announced with macOS support, but since the entire legal battle with Epic has started, I haven't heard anything new. I can definitely imagine Epic dropping macOS support as a petty revenge, Tim Sweeney does strike me as that kind of person (I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

Tim Sweeney even admitted in court that Epic pays 30% to license their games on consoles. At the moment, Epic Games is likely to lose this court case.

 

[diamond.g]

Epic Games has 1 game on consoles (Fortnite). Realistically the 30% they pay is likely covered by games that use their Unreal Engine. Would they like to pay less, probably. Are they likely to rock the boat on consoles considering all the titles that use their game engine? Probably not.

 

[Bodhitree]

They actually are doing this in thier subscription Apple Arcade, but to the liking of their politics, social, and religeon directions just like their Apple TV+ . They make what they like not what the user like. You won't see something like GTAV and DOOM(2016) on Apple Arcade.

The point is, the big-screen tv and personal computer games markets are not the mobile markets. Apple Arcade is meant to solve particular problems with the way games are sold on the iOS App Store, and most of those games are not the kind of cinematic experience we expect on the big screens. I don’t think Apple really understands the games market, but they need to acknowledge that games are a lot of what drives people to buy a new computer.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with them making games in their own style, Nintendo does this as well, they have a kind of signature quality to their games. Apple could certainly do the same. But building a style as a publisher is a little more difficult than just going out and buying a bunch of AAA studios. In the first place, these kinds of companies don’t just grow on trees.

Even making something like a Breath of the Wild clone — which is massively easier than making an original game in the style of Breath of the Wild — is difficult and time consuming. Getting the level of polish is hard, making it all feel ‘right’ is hard. You can count on 4 years development time and a team of 200 people, and then you need to find the right talent, it’s not straightforward.

 

[Bodhitree]

I think the key point is authoring games to match the capabilities of the hardware platform. If your GPU solution in the majority of your consumer-based products has 2.6 Teraflops of compute, then you have to have gaming products that aim at that. The Nintendo Switch is 0.6 Teraflops, and that is a very successful gaming platform. So it is certainly possible.

But if you look at the sales of The Witcher 3 on Switch, it sold 700k copies in the first three months, which is a good proportion of total expected sales on the platform. Compare that to the 28m copies Nintendo sold of Animal Crossing: New Horizons. It is a question of knowing your audience, pitching the game features and art style to the hardware, and creating deep and interesting games.

Apple has a big ’lifestyle’ audience of adults and children. They should do research into how that connects to gaming preferences in the living room and behind the screen of a Mac. I think they can leave the mobile market, it has grown very large and doesn’t need the push of exclusives.

 

[diamond.g]

I think the key point is authoring games to match the capabilities of the hardware platform. If your GPU solution in the majority of your consumer-based products has 2.6 Teraflops of compute, then you have to have gaming products that aim at that. The Nintendo Switch is 0.6 Teraflops, and that is a very successful gaming platform. So it is certainly possible.

But if you look at the sales of The Witcher 3 on Switch, it sold 700k copies in the first three months, which is a good proportion of total expected sales on the platform. Compare that to the 28m copies Nintendo sold of Animal Crossing: New Horizons. It is a question of knowing your audience, pitching the game features and art style to the hardware, and creating deep and interesting games.

Apple has a big ’lifestyle’ audience of adults and children. They should do research into how that connects to gaming preferences in the living room and behind the screen of a Mac. I think they can leave the mobile market, it has grown very large and doesn’t need the push of exclusives.

Nintendo has big sales of stuff like Pokemon and Animal Crossing because it is Pokemon and Animal Crossing. Those franchises are known quantities. And yes, Nintendo isn't really known for pushing graphical boundaries (which may or may not be technically true), so they can get away with games that look more stylistic (cartoony if you will) than other developers/publishers.

 

[Bodhitree]

I’m sorry, but I can’t get behind that. It’s not a question of ‘getting away’ with more stylised graphics, it is an intentional choice aimed at a certain market. And no, those franchises are not known quantities, the last iteration of Animal Crossing sold on a major console was City Folk in 2009 on the Wii, and it sold 3.38m units, which is not in the same league as Wii Fit or Nintendo’s other largest sellers on Wii (Wii Fit sold 43.8m units).

Game franchises have long lives, and Nintendo in particular takes good care of them. Some sell well on some platforms, and others need a certain amount of reinvention. It’s not always predictable, and people at games publishers who have a clear view on how much something might sell are highly prized. I’ve worked in games publishing, and the appeal of a title has quite a few factors.

 

[LeeW]

Folks have been saying Apple needs first party games

Apple is too PC to produce games that will appeal to today's gamers.

 

[diamond.g]

I’m sorry, but I can’t get behind that. It’s not a question of ‘getting away’ with more stylised graphics, it is an intentional choice aimed at a certain market. And no, those franchises are not known quantities, the last iteration of Animal Crossing sold on a major console was City Folk in 2009 on the Wii, and it sold 3.38m units, which is not in the same league as Wii Fit or Nintendo’s other largest sellers on Wii (Wii Fit sold 43.8m units).

Game franchises have long lives, and Nintendo in particular takes good care of them. Some sell well on some platforms, and others need a certain amount of reinvention. It’s not always predictable, and people at games publishers who have a clear view on how much something might sell are highly prized. I’ve worked in games publishing, and the appeal of a title has quite a few factors.

People don't buy Nintendo hardware looking for games like Returnal, that is what I meant by getting away with stylized graphics. BoTW was/is a fairly complex game (thanks to the physics engine), but it isn't Horizon Zero Dawn pretty.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple is too PC to produce games that will appeal to today's gamers.

Uncharted, The Last of Us, and (maybe) Days Gone appear to be right up Apple alley in terms of story and impactful ness.
A serious coup would be getting Star Citizen on AppleTV with VR support assuming Roberts ever actually finishes that game, lol.

 

[jeanlain]

As to "big" Mac games, I think Baldur's Gates III is going to make a large impact. When people see that it runs better on a passively cooled M1 Air than on a similarly priced gaming laptop (that doesn't have the battery life or the nice display), questions will be asked.

I think this is overly optimistic. Is BGIII really that popular?
And laptop gaming is relatively niche, I guess.

I'm pretty sure we have a Mac version of BGIII only because some people at Larian like Macs. We're lucky to have people like that or else we'd have almost nothing to play beyond Feral ports in terms of AAA games.

As long as highly optimised AAA games remain anectotal on macOS, the efforts Apple makes to tailor Metal to their GPUs will remain largely underexploited.

 

[jeanlain]

I can definitely imagine Epic dropping macOS support as a petty revenge, Tim Sweeney does strike me as that kind of person (I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

And I can imagine Apple being totally fine about this. The fact that they threatened to revoke Epic's developer account says it all.

 

[leman]

I think this is overly optimistic. Is BGIII really that popular?

It sold over a million copies in a week on Steam alone for the early access, so yeah, it's fairly popular.

I'm pretty sure we have a Mac version of BGIII only because some people at Larian like Macs. We're lucky to have people like that or else we'd have almost nothing to play beyond Feral ports in terms of AAA games.

This is without a doubt the case. But it does help drive adoption.

As long as highly optimised AAA games remain anectotal on macOS, the efforts Apple makes to tailor Metal to their GPUs will remain largely underexploited.

True. That's why I think it's great that popular games are being released on macOS.

And I can imagine Apple being totally fine about this. The fact that they threatened to revoke Epic's developer account says it all.

That was a really strange move on Apple's part that I could not quite understand. Probably an overzealous lawyer. I don't think Apple long-term would be fine with it at all. I mean, they help Microsoft develop .NET 7 for their ARM Macs, so surely they are interested in UE5 being a first-class citizen on macOS.

 

[diamond.g]

That was a really strange move on Apple's part that I could not quite understand. Probably an overzealous lawyer. I don't think Apple long-term would be fine with it at all. I mean, they help Microsoft develop .NET 7 for their ARM Macs, so surely they are interested in UE5 being a first-class citizen on macOS.

I wouldn't be surprised if more Mac apps used .Net 7 than use UE4/5. So it kind of wouldn't be surprising if Apple dropped them or they took their ball and went home.

 

[MacBH928]

Apple could also buy Samsung and Huawei and get over 60% of the smartphone market share, but since they don't, clearly they don't care about phones.

This is such a ridiculous argument.



Again, the've been spending tons of effort and money to build custom gaming-capable GPUs with advanced capabilities as well as a state-of-the art GPU API + toolkits oriented at game development.



What are you even talking about. The plastic MacBook, arguably the most "average Joe" computer ever made by Apple, was selling between $1100-$1300 during most of its existence. For a brief period of time around 2009-2010 it was $999, same price as the current M1 MBA. Which is still more than twice the price of entry-level Windows laptops.

Macs have always been premium computers and they have never targeted the more budget-oriented customer. But they usually gave you best in-class at the given price level. Today's Macs, especially the M1 Air have the best value proposition of any Mac ever made.

-I am not saying Apple should buy them I am saying they have the money to buy their rivals(and all the studios they own and IPs) out right in videogames, I am trying to prove that money is no issue they just don't care to spend it over there. In smartphone market they have a solid ground, they have no ground in videogames.

-I have to trust you on that, I doubt Apple created their GPU to be game specific. I am sure it all the development has to do with VR, AI, and AR. Maybe used for PRO software like rendering things but gaming is probably not on their to do list.

-I can't argue on that one because I do not know which model you are talking about when you say plastic MacBook, what I know is that when the first Macintosh came out, when the first iMac came out, when the first iBook came out it was the average joe and school student computer and market as such. Now people are calling Apple luxury/premium brand. It was not budget-oriented customer, but it was also not the 1% computer. I have a feeling that for a $999 today you can get something a lot more powerful than 8GB RAM and 256GB Storage on a Wintel machine but I could be wrong.

I don't see MacBook in Apple's lineup, did they cancel it?

I can definitely imagine Epic dropping macOS support as a petty revenge, Tim Sweeney does strike me as that kind of person (I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

I doubt it, those corporates only understand the language of money. I have seen them deal with their enemies for a long time. Apple themselves sue Samsung and continue to buy their screens.

Albeit Nvidia is interesting, I heard Nvidia didn't keep their promise to Apple so Apple went fully AMD for many years and still.

What would Apple gain from buying Nintendo and Sony?

1-Exclusive Titles
2-Force Publishers to release a MacOS version
3-become a big player in videogames market(larger than hollywood)
4-I am guessing their CPU architecture if used in PS6 could dismantle any competitor to it.

I am not saying they should though, I am saying they can, point is if they wanted to support games and gaming on mac they would have done a very long time ago as money is no issue.

Uncharted, The Last of Us, and (maybe) Days Gone appear to be right up Apple alley in terms of story and impactful ness.
A serious coup would be getting Star Citizen on AppleTV with VR support assuming Roberts ever actually finishes that game, lol.

Thats actually a great idea, thats one game you can not play any where else, but not possible due to all his backers. I wonder what goes in the mind of these developers, I think they will live infinitely. The guy behind Shenmu, 20 years later said he is making Shenmu III but the tales does not end there it needs a 4th, 5th, and more titles to complete the saga.

 

[MacBH928]

I wouldn't be surprised if more Mac apps used .Net 7 than use UE4/5. So it kind of wouldn't be surprising if Apple dropped them or they took their ball and went home.

what is .Net 7 used for?

 

[diamond.g]

what is .Net 7 used for?

That was kind of my point, lol. UE on macOS/iOS is pretty much nonexistant. Practically all games on iOS use Unity, it isn't 100% clear what the majority of games on macOS use, but I am pretty sure it isnt UE.

EDIT: I should be clear, I want gaming on the Mac. For the longest time I avoided building a PC to game on because I thought Apple was going to break into the gaming market with gusto when they went with Intel CPU's. I finally ended up building a PC because I wanted to play games like GR:Breakpoint, The Division, Watchdogs, and Control with all the settings.

So I guess I am jaded when folks say that Apple is going to become a tour de force in the gaming arena, since folks had more or less been chanting this very thing since the Intel transition and again when the AppleTV 4K came out.

 

[leman]

-I am not saying Apple should buy them I am saying they have the money to buy their rivals(and all the studios they own and IPs) out right in videogames, I am trying to prove that money is no issue they just don't care to spend it over there. In smartphone market they have a solid ground, they have no ground in videogames.

But Sony or Nintendo are not their rivals. And they use completely different development tools. Apple does not care about games running on PS5 using Sony's proprietary APIs. They care about games running on Macs and iPhones using Metal.

And contrary to what you say, buying these companies would not force anyone to publish macOS games. If you buy Sony, you have to continue running their PlayStation business, maybe hoping to move everything to your GPUs over the next 10 years or so. It's a major pain and I don't see how it would benefit Apple's cause. It makes much more sense for them to instead focus on their own hardware lineup, improve their hardware and software, and partner with independent studios to make sure there are impactful games present on macOS.

-I have to trust you on that, I doubt Apple created their GPU to be game specific. I am sure it all the development has to do with VR, AI, and AR. Maybe used for PRO software like rendering things but gaming is probably not on their to do list.

In one of my previous posts I have provided a detailed list of GPU features Apple has introduced that have little to no utility in anything besides games. Like 80% of Metal is just about gaming.

-I can't argue on that one because I do not know which model you are talking about when you say plastic MacBook, what I know is that when the first Macintosh came out, when the first iMac came out, when the first iBook came out it was the average joe and school student computer and market as such. Now people are calling Apple luxury/premium brand. It was not budget-oriented customer, but it was also not the 1% computer. I have a feeling that for a $999 today you can get something a lot more powerful than 8GB RAM and 256GB Storage on a Wintel machine but I could be wrong.

I don't see MacBook in Apple's lineup, did they cancel it?

If you don't know about the plastic MacBook (the most iconic average Joe model Apple ever released), then what are we even talking about? It was discontinued about 10 years ago, largely replaced by the MacBook Air (although there was a short-lived revival as a MacBook 12").

You are mentioning the iBook... as far as I remember, the cheapest 12" iBook was still at least $$1100-1200, and that is in early 2000s, when the purchasing power of a single dollar was significantly higher than now (according to inflation calculators it translates to ~ $1500 in today's money). The original 1998 iMac was $1299. The base iMac was never cheaper than $999 — again, we are talking about 10 years ago which was significantly more expensive than $999 today.

Macs were always premium machines. Students who struggle for money could never afford them easily (even with edu pricing). I know it very well since I go my first Mac around 2008, and it was a tough expense for me studying in Germany.

I doubt it, those corporates only understand the language of money. I have seen them deal with their enemies for a long time. Apple themselves sue Samsung and continue to buy their screens.

Which is common business sense. Let's hope that it prevails. I just don't trust Sweeney.

 

[leman]

That was kind of my point, lol. UE on macOS/iOS is pretty much nonexistant.

There are some, but most don't bother supporting Macs for a simple reason: games that utilize UE4 tend to be more demanding titles and Macs traditionally had weak GPUs. Apple Silicon could make it worthwhile though.

Practically all games on iOS use Unity, it isn't 100% clear what the majority of games on macOS use, but I am pretty sure it isnt UE.

Unity is by far the most popular third-party engine for games that run on macOS.

 

[diamond.g]

There are some, but most don't bother supporting Macs for a simple reason: games that utilize UE4 tend to be more demanding titles and Macs traditionally had weak GPUs. Apple Silicon could make it worthwhile though.



Unity is by far the most popular third-party engine for games that run on macOS.

Lets hope so.

 

[Stella]

What would Apple gain from buying Nintendo and Sony?

A whole load of baggage that wouldn't fit Apple's business, particularly Sony who are in many markets.

 

[jeanlain]

True. That's why I think it's great that popular games are being released on macOS.

And it would be nice if Apple deigned to offer their help to more AAA game developers. It's not as it would put a dent in their cash hoard.
They should be more proactive.