Future for Mac games in M1 era

[Bodhitree]

Its less about "style" and more about economics and focus as you mention. For nearly the entire history of the macintosh, gaming was at best a second thought. (Snip)

Now streaming is becoming a thing, and that imo will further hurt the Mac platform for native gaming. Why spend the money to develop a game on macOS when those people (and others) can just simply use a streaming service to play.

The style question is forced by the hardware capability of the platform. The AAA titles developed for PC just won’t run so well on the Mac hardware, I doubt for example that we will ever see a Cyberpunk 2077 port for the M1. So if you look to Nintendo, they make money on hardware and software, they own nearly all of the biggest franchises on their platform, and they succeed in defining a family-friendly style of gaming for their market. Apple just get ports, and are non-existent as a destination for gaming.

Streaming is going to be an influence on the Mac I think. It neatly sidesteps the relative weakness of the GPU’s and there are plenty of capable browsers on the platform. I think it will prove to be a boon for Mac gaming, providing more choice for those people who do use their Macs for entertainment.

But it still won’t give a gamer a reason to buy a Mac. That can only be done by giving the platform a genuine set of exclusives to function as a draw. By ignoring gaming as long as it has, Apple has neglected a key function of the modern computer as an entertainment device.

 

[maflynn]

The style question is forced by the hardware capability of the platform. The AAA titles developed for PC just won’t run so well on the Mac hardware, I doubt for example that we will ever see a Cyberpunk 2077 port for the M1

No question, Apple has historically put anemic GPUs in their Macs, There's no way that the M1 mac could run Cyberpunk - Not when your need a rtx quality GPU. That's why people were so angry when they tried the play the game on the PS4/XBox One

 

[diamond.g]

No question, Apple has historically put anemic GPUs in their Macs, There's no way that the M1 mac could run Cyberpunk - Not when your need a rtx quality GPU. That's why people were so angry when they tried the play the game on the PS4/XBox One

Eh, CDPR screwed the porting job of that game on the last gen consoles. Technically it “runs just fine” on the XSX/PS5 via backwards compatibility. The current gen systems aren’t getting all the “goodies” until later this year, assuming it happens at all at this point.

But that is a conversation for another thread, lol.

 

[laurensvo92]

But it still won’t give a gamer a reason to buy a Mac. That can only be done by giving the platform a genuine set of exclusives to function as a draw. By ignoring gaming as long as it has, Apple has neglected a key function of the modern computer as an entertainment device.

Apple has never tried to position the Macs for gamers, instead Apple has always marketed the Mac as reliable, simple to use and powerful platform. Most gamers anyway, build their own computers, as its allows them to easily upgrade to the latest gear.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple has never tried to position the Macs for gamers, instead Apple has always marketed the Mac as reliable, simple to use and powerful platform. Most gamers anyway, build their own computers, as its allows them to easily upgrade to the latest gear.

Here is to going they don't mention console quality graphics (games) during WWDC or the fall event then.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

What would Apple gain from buying Nintendo and Sony?

Nothing, this is not going to fly. Both Nintendo and Sony are traditional Japanese companies. A sale to Apple will never happen. They will work together under the right conditions, but not a sale. Not gonna happen for any amount of money.
People were going crazy when Miyamoto stepped out on stage at a Keynote. Look how that turned out.

Uncharted, The Last of Us, and (maybe) Days Gone appear to be right up Apple alley in terms of story and impactful ness.

Maybe. But then what? Apple releasing a handful of games over 10 years and then the industry jumps on macOS? Unlikely, they need Cross-Platform support or buy every major game studio out there.

It sold over a million copies in a week on Steam alone for the early access, so yeah, it's fairly popular.

Well, the question is how many sales total. One million isn't much, at $50 per game that's not even covering development costs for a AAA game.

1-Exclusive Titles
2-Force Publishers to release a MacOS version
3-become a big player in videogames market(larger than hollywood)
4-I am guessing their CPU architecture if used in PS6 could dismantle any competitor to it.

CPU architecture is pretty much irrelevant. They need a proper GPU in those SoCs. And that doesn't only mean hardware, it involves RTX, DLSS, etc. (whatever is on the horizon).

Oh, but they do. There are multiple support channels where you can directly communicate with engineers on the GPU team. And they do offer direct support to companies such as Larian, unsure about the conditions though.

Not on a level that Nvidia provides. Apple massively cut back on support when they became "famous". Back in the PPC days it wasn't an issue. We had people to talk to at Apple. They came to us, we came to them (Cupertino). I can't pinpoint this to a specific date, but the early Intel days there was support as well, not so much later on. In the early iPhone days it was great too. Apples original plan was to give people the ability to bring their own "web-apps" to the iPhone, no SDK available as we know it today. They changed this later on but we got access to a back then non-public SDK for a large healthcare project in the US with full support from Apple. Good luck with such a thing today. Apples support these days is pretty much on the same level as the support from your ISP when your internet goes down.

 

[Pezimak]

Please forgive what may be a silly question, I actually did not realise you could run X86 Windows games on an M1 Mac till finding this thread. But will this feature work for DirectX 9 games? And would you be able to plug in an external DVD drive and install older games from disk like the original DOOM 3 or Crysis etc, or would it only work with downloaded games running through applications like Steam?

 

[leman]

Please forgive what may be a silly question, I actually did not realise you could run X86 Windows games on an M1 Mac till finding this thread. But will this feature work for DirectX 9 games? And would you be able to plug in an external DVD drive and install older games from disk like the original DOOM 3 or Crysis etc, or would it only work with downloaded games running through applications like Steam?

It's a hit and miss really and depends on Windows 10 x86 emulation on one hand and Parallel's DirectX driver stack ow the other hand. Older games are probably more likely to run than newer games.

 

[Pezimak]

It's a hit and miss really and depends on Windows 10 x86 emulation on one hand and Parallel's DirectX driver stack ow the other hand. Older games are probably more likely to run than newer games.

Thank you for the reply, I really need a new computer at some point, and would love to play my old games. I know Intel Macs will work but would like a newer Apple Silicon machine really.
It seems I'll need to do some researching, I will be taking a look at any new MacBook Pro or the rumoured Mac Mini Pro. So I think they will be powerful enough. It's just the software as you suggest, hopefully they will improve on this.

 

[diamond.g]

It's a hit and miss really and depends on Windows 10 x86 emulation on one hand and Parallel's DirectX driver stack ow the other hand. Older games are probably more likely to run than newer games.

Just to add you also would have to be careful of games that either include anticheat (usually online games) or anti piracy software. As it is likely those software suites won't install even with emulation.

 

[Homy]

Thank you for the reply, I really need a new computer at some point, and would love to play my old games. I know Intel Macs will work but would like a newer Apple Silicon machine really.
It seems I'll need to do some researching, I will be taking a look at any new MacBook Pro or the rumoured Mac Mini Pro. So I think they will be powerful enough. It's just the software as you suggest, hopefully they will improve on this.

You can not run x86 Windows games on Apple Silicon via Rosetta, unless you use Crossover, Parallels or PlayOnMac. You can run 32-bit and 64-bit Windows games but not all will work.

Home - Gaming on M1 Apple silicon Macs and MacBooks, bugs, fixes, compatiblity and troubleshooting guides - AppleGamingWiki

www.applegamingwiki.com

Apple Silicon Games

curated by Mac Gamers for Mac Gamers

applesilicongames.com

 

[Pezimak]

You can not run x86 Windows games on Apple Silicon via Rosetta, unless you use Crossover, Parallels or PlayOnMac. You can run 32-bit and 64-bit Windows games but not all will work.

Home - Gaming on M1 Apple silicon Macs and MacBooks, bugs, fixes, compatiblity and troubleshooting guides - AppleGamingWiki

www.applegamingwiki.com

Apple Silicon Games

curated by Mac Gamers for Mac Gamers

applesilicongames.com

Thank you for the links, in my original comment I was referring to Parallels, but those links you have provided seem to suggest to use Crossover, I'm sure I've seen a video on You Tube of the game possibly running under parallels?
I shall have to research further as I'm not clear on how you would install the game from disk using Crossover.

 

[MysticCow]

Crossover

Since it's being brought up, can we do a quick comparison between Crossover and PlayOnMac? Or is PlayOnMac even updated anymore?

 

[maflynn]

Since it's being brought up, can we do a quick comparison between Crossover and PlayOnMac? Or is PlayOnMac even updated anymore?

I had to google it, as i never heard of PlayOnMac but in googling it, that is just using the opensource WINE and reading the wiki page, its using python, so I think Crossover may be a better option

 

[MacBH928]

Since it's being brought up, can we do a quick comparison between Crossover and PlayOnMac? Or is PlayOnMac even updated anymore?

Here is what you need to know.

• WINE is FOSS software that makes you run Windows apps on Linux and Mac
• Any other software you find saying so is more or less based on WINE
• PlayOnMac is an amateur, community driven attempt to customise WINE to work better for MacOS and games
• CrossOver is a professional commercial app by Codeweavers. It makes WINE more user friendly and add adjustments to make it work with different apps better.
• Both Lutris and Steam Proton are based on WINE with fixes and scripts specially made to run specific games.

Think of WINE as an Intel CPU used by Apple, Dell, and Acer. Something like that.
Yes, You can download WINE which is free and use it. Supposedly will produce similar results.
And yes, I think PlayOnMac is deprecated, its no longer in active development. They concentrate on PlayOnLinux I think.

 

[Homy]

Thank you for the links, in my original comment I was referring to Parallels, but those links you have provided seem to suggest to use Crossover, I'm sure I've seen a video on You Tube of the game possibly running under parallels?
I shall have to research further as I'm not clear on how you would install the game from disk using Crossover.

Applesilicongames lists how well games run via Rosetta, Crossover or Parallels. Parallels is also suggested in the FAQ.

 

[Homy]

I had to google it, as i never heard of PlayOnMac but in googling it, that is just using the opensource WINE and reading the wiki page, its using python, so I think Crossover may be a better option

Yes, PlayOnMac is free and supports mostly older games.

 

[Pezimak]

Applesilicongames lists how well games run via Rosetta, Crossover or Parallels. Parallels is also suggested in the FAQ.

View attachment 1782134

Ah thank you for pointing that out. I think that would be the better option, as I have played with Crossover before and found it difficult to install disk games with, or it just wouldn't work.
Certainly excited to see where this goes.

 

[JMacHack]

It’s not gonna change in any meaningful way I predict. We’ll get secondhand ports a year or so after the main release of any game. Same as now.

Apple never understood “gaming” and “gamers” will never accept Apple, no matter how they reach out.

 

[Bodhitree]

It’s not gonna change in any meaningful way I predict. We’ll get secondhand ports a year or so after the main release of any game. Same as now.

Apple never understood “gaming” and “gamers” will never accept Apple, no matter how they reach out.

Sadly I suspect it is true. Apple’s cpu hardware is fine, but the graphics hardware lags such a lot that ports from consoles are not going to be easy. And it is the case that Apple does not really “get” modern AAA games as they apply to PCs.

But I see a certain reluctance from Apple to forge their own way in this. They could try to create a more definitive style of game, something uniquely Apple which does not chase photorealistic rendering.

 

[Homy]

but the graphics hardware lags such a lot that ports from consoles are not going to be easy.

Should say "but the current graphics hardware lags such a lot that ports from consoles are not easy. Looking forward to 32-core M2.

 

[JMacHack]

Sadly I suspect it is true. Apple’s cpu hardware is fine, but the graphics hardware lags such a lot that ports from consoles are not going to be easy. And it is the case that Apple does not really “get” modern AAA games as they apply to PCs.

But I see a certain reluctance from Apple to forge their own way in this. They could try to create a more definitive style of game, something uniquely Apple which does not chase photorealistic rendering.

Iirc there was an interview with Gabe Newell of Valve where he said that occasionally a team from Apple would show up and say “we wanna improve gaming on the Mac, how can we do that.” And Gabe gave them some advice, then they left and they’d hear nothing for awhile until a new team of people from Apple showed up and said “we wanna improve gaming on the Mac” and they’d have no idea of the last team. This was around 2009 or so.

Anyway, the biggest obstacle the Mac has always faced was the different and often incompatible apis that were used. Often even companies that ported pc games to the Mac would run everything in the outdated version of OpenGL instead of Metal. It’s not gonna change even in the post-x86 era. And because pc gaming is basically a “Windows-only DirectX” club, everything else gets left out in the rain.

Looking at the modern and future games industry, I’d say the big obstacle for getting games on the Mac hasn’t changed at all from the past. The dev tools are mostly platform agnostic, especially in the case of Unity and Unreal, the two biggest engines.

Also, an obstacle that no one really talks about is DRM. Invasive and commonly used DRM programs like Denuvo are Windows exclusive, and as they’re completely opaque and proprietary, this blocks the Gaming publishers from porting the game to Mac or Linux, even if they wanted to. Likewise anti-cheat software is going in this direction as well.

 

[NotTooLate]

It will be hard to compete with MS , they have the defacto API for game development and anything that is not DX is basically a port that needs big justification to make , Apple needs to be a first class citizen in the big studios , where they have their own engines (not unreal/unity which already are supporting Metal to some extent), once they can claim that position they will be there for future releases , so if Rockstar brings their RAGE engine to Metal/AS , you would get the next GTA on the Mac and all the rest of games built on said engine , Rockstar will need a big compensation for the wasted resources that will be needed , but getting GTA and RDR for example , and having them run well , will be a big PR push.

 

[diamond.g]

At some point we are going to have to stop blaming DirectX, especially when Nintendo and Sony are getting these games. They don’t use DX at all.

 

[Bodhitree]

There are quite a lot of games studios out there who are capable of creating great games for the Mac, it’s just that the business case needs addressing. Publishers see the Mac just as 10% additional sales that can be picked up a few years after the PC version is done.

That would change if you could demonstrate that a hit game on the Mac might sell say 5 million units. If the rumours are true and Apple did have 20m M1 chips made then perhaps the market of M1 machines is big enough to try to make a hit game for.