G4 Powermac 466mhz 'Digital Audio' M7627LL/A

[Raging Dufus]

DVD-RAM media were like cartridges with the optical disk inside - I'm pretty sure the one we had was the sole drive on the Powermac making it compatible with CD/DVD too.

I'm learning a lot in this thread, from mostly-failed PSU's, to no 5V PCI on G5's, now to DVD-RAM cartridges. One of the reasons I love this forum!

I never knew about the cartridge-type DVD-RAM media, I've had a DVD-RAM drive in a Sawtooth before but it took regular disc media that looked like the pic below (from Wikipedia, which also has pics of the cartridges). I don't even know how one would use the cartridge-type media; presumably in a different kind of drive than the DVD-RAM drives Apple used?

 

[LightBulbFun]

Bear in mind the Quicksilver lacks the 1Mb L2 cache the Sawtooth has - don't know about OS 9 but that cache makes a difference in OSX.

your not very good at this are you?

while true the Low end QuickSilvers dont have L3 cache and that will affect performance they still have 256KB of on die full speed L2 cache built into their 7450/7455 CPUs

on top of that higher end Quicksilvers have that L2, plus 2MB L3 DDR cache thats better than the L2 was on the Sawtooth.

so a higher end quicksilver has more and faster CPU cache then a sawtooth.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I don't even know how one would use the cartridge-type media; presumably in a different kind of drive than the DVD-RAM drives Apple used?

No, the drive accepted the cartridge case as well - I think a section retracted to accomodate it.

Here we are:

https://www.journaldulapin.com/2014/09/09/dvd-ram-cartouche-et-power-mac/
[doublepost=1547408457][/doublepost]

your not very good at this are you?

Why do you make a habit of deliberately mis-interpreting my posts. My comment was specifically aimed at the two machines in question - a 500Mhz Sawtooth and 800Mhz Quicksilver?

 

[Raging Dufus]

your not very good at this are you?

while true the Low end QuickSilvers dont have L3 cache and that will affect performance they still have 256KB of on die full speed L2 cache built into their 7450/7455 CPUs

on top of that higher end Quicksilvers have that L2, plus 2MB L3 DDR cache thats better than the L2 was on the Sawtooth.

so a higher end quicksilver has more and faster CPU cache then a sawtooth.

You're right about the L2, but the single-CPU 800 MHz QS2002 (what the OP referenced) has no L3 cache. I've had one, and it does make a difference, though I couldn't say that overall it was a worse performer than a Sawtooth.

 

[LightBulbFun]

No, the drive accepted the cartridge case as well - I think a section retracted to accomodote it.

Here we are:

https://www.journaldulapin.com/2014/09/09/dvd-ram-cartouche-et-power-mac/
[doublepost=1547408457][/doublepost]

Why do make a habit of deliberately mis-interpreting my posts. My comment was specifically aimed at the two machines in question - a 500Mhz Sawtooth and 800Mhz Quicksilver?

will admit that I missed you where referencing an 800Mhz Single CPU QS specifically

however what I say stands true still, and im pretty sure an 800Mhz QS even with no L3 would perform better then a stock sawtooth

 

[Dronecatcher]

however what I say stands true still, and im pretty sure an 800Mhz QS even with no L3 would perform better then a stock sawtooth

Maybe...and I don't know for sure, which is why I only said to the OP, "bear in mind" as he would be spending more on the Quicksilver...

 

[thetcutkid]

A real shame that LBF decided to comment in such a manner after so many helpful posts.

As first time poster I'm blown away by the contributions to this thread.

Regarding the drive, I definitely need the ability to burn audio cd's as well so since the one I've found has a zip drive which I'll never use, is it possible to remove that, keep the dvd drive and install my old cd-rw in place of the zip

 

[Dronecatcher]

Regarding the drive, I definitely need the ability to burn audio cd's as well so since the one I've found has a zip drive which I'll never use, is it possible to remove that, keep the dvd drive and install my old cd-rw in place of the zip

There's instructions for the removal here:

https://everymac.com/systems/apple/...w-to-replace-zip-drive-install-multiport.html

As you can see, the cage is a different size from an optical disk, you might as well just replace the DVD-RAM unit which I've just read can only write to DVD-RAM.

 

[Raging Dufus]

Regarding the drive, I definitely need the ability to burn audio cd's as well so since the one I've found has a zip drive which I'll never use, is it possible to remove that, keep the dvd drive and install my old cd-rw in place of the zip

You can remove the zip drive, but it is physically smaller than a CD/DVD drive and the drive caddy is sized accordingly. You would have to dispense with the original drive caddy, which is one piece and holds both the optical and zip drives, and fashion some other way to fix both drives in place. On top of that, you'd have to dispense with the case's face plate, because the opening for the zip cartridges is too small to accommodate CD's/DVD's.

So, yes it's physically possible, but difficult and the results will be ugly.

However, your DA's CD-RW drive should slide right into the same slot where the DVD-RAM drive is now, with no modifications necessary.

 

[thetcutkid]

Ok thanks guys, that's the way to go then
[doublepost=1547417296][/doublepost]'tis done, replacement mac has been purchased, will hopefully collect this week.

Thanks for all your input and advice on this thread today, it's much appreciated.

I dare say I may be asking for advice when I come to set it up

 

[Dronecatcher]

'tis done, replacement mac has been purchased, will hopefully collect this week.

Good luck...post an update when it's up and running

 

[thetcutkid]

OK, I picked up the replacement Mac this morning and I have to say it's in great condition for it's age, very clean inside, only some light dust here and there and the seller was happy to boot it up into OS9 and all was well there too.

Before I start taking things out and putting things in, is there anything I should be aware of ?

My plan is to remove the HDD in the replacement and put in the two HDD's from the original, remove the DVD-RAM drive in the replacement and put in the CD-RW from the original.

The memory slots are maxed out, there's actually 1gb of RAM in it which is more than advertised (seller didn't realise till he booted it up) so that's a little bonus. I do have the Kingston RAM in the original machine but I can't do a lot with that with no slots left I guess and 1gb is actually more than I had originally anyway.

It has what I think must be the original ATi card in it, I'm tempted to swap in the upgraded card I have in the original, I guess that way the drivers would all match up too ?

Finally, there is what I think's a SCSI card in there (photos below) - I take it this is for further HDD's if required ? I have no real need for it and since a PCI-324 card is going in there I think I'm gonna take it out.

 

[AphoticD]

OK, I picked up the replacement Mac this morning and I have to say it's in great condition for it's age, very clean inside, only some light dust here and there and the seller was happy to boot it up into OS9 and all was well there too.

Before I start taking things out and putting things in, is there anything I should be aware of ?

My plan is to remove the HDD in the replacement and put in the two HDD's from the original, remove the DVD-RAM drive in the replacement and put in the CD-RW from the original.

The memory slots are maxed out, there's actually 1gb of RAM in it which is more than advertised (seller didn't realise till he booted it up) so that's a little bonus. I do have the Kingston RAM in the original machine but I can't do a lot with that with no slots left I guess and 1gb is actually more than I had originally anyway.

It has what I think must be the original ATi card in it, I'm tempted to swap in the upgraded card I have in the original, I guess that way the drivers would all match up too ?

Finally, there is what I think's a SCSI card in there (photos below) - I take it this is for further HDD's if required ? I have no real need for it and since a PCI-324 card is going in there I think I'm gonna take it out.

View attachment 815843
View attachment 815844

Well done @thetcutkid. It should be a straight-forward swap for the hard drives and video card. I imagine the DVD-RAM drive will also burn CD-RW's, so that might not be a necessary swap, but if need be, should also swap out as expected.

I'd imagine it's a good idea to remove any PCI cards you don't actually need. The last thing you want is an unused expansion card introducing unwanted noise or pops into your recordings while the system is polling for I/O.

You may be able to sell the SCSI PCI card back on the 2nd hand market. I'm sure someone will find it useful.

 

[Raging Dufus]

OK, I picked up the replacement Mac this morning and I have to say it's in great condition for it's age, very clean inside, only some light dust here and there and the seller was happy to boot it up into OS9 and all was well there too.

Before I start taking things out and putting things in, is there anything I should be aware of ?

My plan is to remove the HDD in the replacement and put in the two HDD's from the original, remove the DVD-RAM drive in the replacement and put in the CD-RW from the original.

The memory slots are maxed out, there's actually 1gb of RAM in it which is more than advertised (seller didn't realise till he booted it up) so that's a little bonus. I do have the Kingston RAM in the original machine but I can't do a lot with that with no slots left I guess and 1gb is actually more than I had originally anyway.

It has what I think must be the original ATi card in it, I'm tempted to swap in the upgraded card I have in the original, I guess that way the drivers would all match up too ?

Finally, there is what I think's a SCSI card in there (photos below) - I take it this is for further HDD's if required ? I have no real need for it and since a PCI-324 card is going in there I think I'm gonna take it out.

View attachment 815843
View attachment 815844

You mentioned in your original post that you'd replaced the battery on the DA. Assuming you mean the little PRAM battery, you might as well take that new one out of the DA and put it into the Sawtooth (they take the same battery). Remember to give the CUDA (PMU reset) button a push after you replace the battery.

If you're getting more RAM than you had in the DA, then just roll with it, there's no reason to change. 1 GB is more than enough for OS 9 anyway.

Since you're swapping in your old hard drives, that should take care of any driver issues with the DA's graphics card. Assuming your Sawtooth still has its original Rage 128, then yes, you should definitely trade that out for the better card from the DA.

Sounds like you're all set! Good luck!

 

[bunnspecial]

The 2930CU was the factory SCSI card that shipped in a lot of G3 and G4 Macs. It can drive internal 50 pin devices, but I'd guess it's MOST often used for external peripherals.

Weirdly enough, it's actually a bootable card, but also doesn't work in Leopard.

You can safely get rid of it if you're not running any SCSI peripherals.

 

[thetcutkid]

OK, all relevant parts transferred across and good shout on the battery Raging Dufus, I swapped that over too and pressed the PMU reset after installing.

However, something isn't right...

I powered it up, I got the chime and I heard the monitor wake out of sleep and the light on it changed from orange to green but the screen is blank, nothing - the light is still green as it normally would be during use, but just a black screen.

Also there's an issue with the audio interface - when you turn the breakout box on that's connected to the PCI-324, you get a flashing green light (this is normal), once the computer has booted, this green light always stops flashing and changes to a solid light - this has not happened, it just flashes constantly, as if it can't do it's handshake with the PCI-324 card.

Any ideas ?

 

[bunnspecial]

Have you reset the PRAM?

 

[thetcutkid]

Is that by pressing the button next to the battery ?
[doublepost=1547575767][/doublepost]OK, sorry, I've googled that and can see it's not to do with that button.

With the machine now booted up but with a blank screen, how do I safely shut it down ?
[doublepost=1547578364][/doublepost]OK, so this is a bit weird.

I found the keyboard shortcut to restart the mac and I wasn't then quick enough to get my fingers in the position to zap PRAM before the first chime, so it continues to boot up and this time round the screen works as normal, the audio interface's light still doesn't stop flashing but I can shut the mac down properly via the menu and start again.

With my fingers hovering over the keys I press the power button but I got the first chime before I was holding all the buttons down. I kept them pressed down until I heard a second chime and let go. The mac, however, is as before, blank screen and flashing light on the audio interface?

So I'm not sure if I've reset PRAM or not, should my fingers be holding down the four keys before I hit the power button ?!

 

[bunnspecial]

When you reset the PRAM, you need to be sure you press all four buttons before the computer chimes, and keep holding them down until it chimes a second time. Sometimes I'll wait for a third time for good measure, but this PROBABLY isn't necessary.

Unless you've heard the 2nd chime, though, it hasn't reset.

 

[thetcutkid]

Sorry, you'll have to bear with me, another update.

It shows how long it is since I've done any recording - what I had forgotten was that, of course, the PCI-324 card attached to the audio interface only operates under OS9, booting into OS9 and the green light latches on as normal and I was able to load up my production software and play some recorded music.

So that side of things is fine...phew !

Booting back into OSX it came up first time so I'm now gonna try shutting it down and booting up again and see if the screen comes on first time.
[doublepost=1547580518][/doublepost]

Unless you've heard the 2nd chime, though, it hasn't reset

I definitely heard the second chime with my fingers holding down all four keys so I'm guessing it has reset.

I just shut the mac down, waited a few minutes and then started it up again and this time it's come up normally, with the screen as it should be.

So I think (keeping fingers quietly crossed and touching some good quality MDF) I may be back in business.

It goes without saying that I very much appreciate everyone's input into this thread - I quite simply couldn't have done it without you !

I think I may be keeping an eye on eBay for similar Sawtooth's just in case...is this how you start collecting old macs ?

 

[Mac03ForLife]

So fun story,
My PM G5 DP 1.8 did the same thing to me a few months ago, turns out just leaving it be for a few months cured it. Literally no idea how or why, I did clean the dust out and reseat everything, then just let it be. I think temp may have been the issue, as my office is like 40° during the summer and 70° during the winter (old house perks lol). I would just let it sit for a few months and see what happens

 

[Raging Dufus]

Sorry, you'll have to bear with me, another update.

It shows how long it is since I've done any recording - what I had forgotten was that, of course, the PCI-324 card attached to the audio interface only operates under OS9, booting into OS9 and the green light latches on as normal and I was able to load up my production software and play some recorded music.

So that side of things is fine...phew !

Booting back into OSX it came up first time so I'm now gonna try shutting it down and booting up again and see if the screen comes on first time.
[doublepost=1547580518][/doublepost]

I definitely heard the second chime with my fingers holding down all four keys so I'm guessing it has reset.

I just shut the mac down, waited a few minutes and then started it up again and this time it's come up normally, with the screen as it should be.

So I think (keeping fingers quietly crossed and touching some good quality MDF) I may be back in business.

It goes without saying that I very much appreciate everyone's input into this thread - I quite simply couldn't have done it without you !

I think I may be keeping an eye on eBay for similar Sawtooth's just in case...is this how you start collecting old macs ?

OP, something just occurred to me that I haven't seen mentioned. Given that the Sawtooth is an older machine than your DA, it's possible the firmware needs to be updated. Look in System Profiler to see your firmware revision; the latest one available should be 4.2.8f1, and that's really what you need to be running if you boot OS X at all.

If you need to update, you'll find instructions and a download link here (site link is through the Wayback Machine, but I checked the download link and it still works - don't bother trying to find it on Apple's support site, it's buried somewhere).

 

[thetcutkid]

Hi RD, ok another good shout, booted into OSX, the boot rom version is 3.2.2f1

Looking at the details in that link, am I right in thinking I need to be booted into OS9 to download the update? I haven't accessed the internet under OS9 in something like 10 years lol, I've just tried and IE5.1 is having none of it!

'the attempt to load 'Accessing URL: http://www.google.co.uk/' failed

It's even longer since I played around with extensions but having a quick look 'internet' is checked, is there anything else I should be checking ?

 

[Dronecatcher]

Looking at the details in that link, am I right in thinking I need to be booted into OS9 to download the update?

No, you can download it on another Mac - I've just downloaded it in OSX 10.7.5

 

[thetcutkid]

No, you can download it on another Mac - I've just downloaded it in OSX 10.7.5

OK and then boot into OS9 to install it ?