G5 may not be what we've been expecting.

[jefhatfield]

california has a lot of rich but way more poor...guess what, since reagan, there has been no middle class

i say apple should have three markets, the upper, the imac and ibook, and a student market

i too graduated from a private university and i could tell you one thing, there were no working class people there from what i could see...everyone was dressed nice and the parking lot was full of mercedes, bmw's, and nice suv's...each college class was 700-1400 dollars each!

but we have a huge population of african americans, recent asians, and hispanics who would never even consider a drexel or a stanford in their wildest dreams

...it's off to junior college for two years for the AA/AS, then transfer to a state or uc (among the most affordable in the world) but the cost of living makes a mac as an added tool impossible) it is hard enough being a minority and trying to go to college, but these folks often come from countries that have a per capita income of around 3,000 or less (on top of struggling with english and having a grocery bill which was more than their rent)...and not to mention american born poor people struggling thru school

in the old days, apple gave a 30 percent discount on their gear to students, but that was many years ago

i am sure you are very intelligent, but you are RICH compared to many of the san jose state students that come from poor areas of the world...i use san jose state as an example but there is a sizeable poor vietnamese population that goes to uc berkeley nearby..i volunteer as a social worker for ghetto kids (mostly) who are hiv positive and hooked on heroin and they are no more able to buy a mac than buy a lear jet...i grew up comfortable and had no idea that there were so many poor in our country until i left beautiful sururban monterey and went to state college at cal poly san luis obispo where i met tons of working students who struggled like crazy and did not have a dime from their parents...in the same town was this community college for the local rich and those kids at cuseta college were rich and living at home and after two years were bound for some private university like stanford or usc...they would only resort to cal poly if they did not have the grades or money to go private...we normal cal poly students used to have the cuesta college kids supply the beer and pizzas because 9 times out of ten, they had the MONEY...i know i am ranting, i don't hate rich people...i just think we should all get a chance in life

maybe our nation should have a social program which buys macs at full price and provides them to the ultra poor

cal state university monterey bay in marina, ca has all their students have computers and there is this non-profit in that city that will supply any student who is not equipped with a machine...without them, some students would not be able do download assignments or take part in the digital education of csu monterey (america's first all wired campus, 1994)

and yes, to reiterate, there are so many poor in california and california is hell of an expensive place to live...santa clara county where san jose state is is among one of america's most expensive counties to live in

 

[ftaok]

Originally posted by spikey
That is not affordable at all, i cannot afford it and most of my friends cant.
Affordable=$500
dont mix up value for money and affordability. value for money is great, but if you cant afford it in the first place then it is no good to you. So value for money is not the issue, price is.

I am by no means rich. In my opinion, if you can't afford an $800 computer, then maybe you should be working instead of playing on a computer. Unless of course, your job is in the computer field.

Seriously though, $800 is affordable. $500 is even more so. OK, you can afford a $500 computer. But there's a guy that can only afford a $300 one. What's he gonna do?

If you can't afford a computer, you could always go to the library to use their's. Or you could pick up a used one. Apple can't compete in the ultra low end marketplace. They'd get creamed.

If this sounds harsh, sorry. Maybe I'm just too damned cynical. That East Coast upbringing and all.

 

[ftaok]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
california has a lot of rich but way more poor...guess what, since reagan, there has been no middle class

i say apple should have three markets, the upper, the imac and ibook, and a student market

...snip...

Jeff,

I too, am a minority. I understand that. And I understand that it sucks being poor. I'm lucky enough to not have had to deal with that. My parents, had to busts their asses to provide for me and my siblings.

I'm just saying that it's not Apple's responsibility to cater to the lower class. Apple has responsibilities to the shareholders first. If anything, it's the state government that has to step up to the plate in California.

Anyways, this seems to have gotten way off topic. What was the topic in the first place?

 

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ftaok
Jeff,

I too, am a minority. I understand that. And I understand that it sucks being poor. I'm lucky enough to not have had to deal with that. My parents, had to busts their asses to provide for me and my siblings.

I'm just saying that it's not Apple's responsibility to cater to the lower class. Apple has responsibilities to the shareholders first. If anything, it's the state government that has to step up to the plate in California.

Anyways, this seems to have gotten way off topic. What was the topic in the first place?

something about g5, i think

i think you are right in that it is the responisibility of the us government and not apple to make sure the usa does not fall behind anybody else in computing

i am in the IT field and i am very cynical about the whole high tech industry, which is healthy, but a more affordable mac would also, im my opinion, help apple in two ways

1) it would build up market share and and approach that sweet spot you mentioned

2) it would introduce a whole new group of users to the apple, many of whom would probably stick to apple for good, and in the end, the shareholders would become happier

i was lucky enough to study abroad during my undergrad years and go to the university of london and in england i saw students so poor that it even made the poor students in america look rich...of course in those days there were no computers in schools, but if the economy of england is as bad now as it was then (1985), i would hate to think what it would be like for the poorer students in england to try and afford a mac

off topic - doesn't drexel have a great basketball team and are you guys in the ncaa now? cal poly or golden gate univ., my two schools, are not ncaa material since one is too small and the other only has a soccor team (i could be mixing up drexel university with clyde drexler the basketball player, though )

excuse me since i am this 5'7" dude and i don't know basketball too well but i always root for 5'7" nba player sped webb!!

 

[ftaok]

More off-topic drivel ...

Jeff,

To answer your NCAA questions.

Drexel used to be a perennial NCAA Tourney entry back when I was attending. I think we made it to the Tourney 4 out of the 5 years I attended. We're a pretty small school that plays in one of the smaller conferences (Colonial Conference). We didn't win our conference this year, so "NO SOUP FOR US". Winning the conference is our only way into the Tourney.

So in a nutshell, I think that you had Drexel mixed up with Clyde. Very likely.

fyi - Drexel is in Philadelphia and is mainly known for it's Engineering College. The Business School is developing a reputation as well. But Engineering is the bread and butter program.

 

[mischief]

Okay, so who will produce G5?

And don't just say: "Moto OF COURSE!" Cuz that's the easy way out. We have NO proof one way or the other. Hate to just cut BACK TO the topic like that.......


(throws up hands and walks away muttering)

That's it, no more houkah for you guys before logging in.......

 

[Dunepilot]

Students

Originally posted by jefhatfield



i am in the IT field and i am very cynical about the whole high tech industry, which is healthy, but a more affordable mac would also, im my opinion, help apple in two ways

1) it would build up market share and and approach that sweet spot you mentioned

2) it would introduce a whole new group of users to the apple, many of whom would probably stick to apple for good, and in the end, the shareholders would become happier

i was lucky enough to study abroad during my undergrad years and go to the university of london and in england i saw students so poor that it even made the poor students in america look rich...of course in those days there were no computers in schools, but if the economy of england is as bad now as it was then (1985), i would hate to think what it would be like for the poorer students in england to try and afford a mac

Sorry to say it, but this is never going to happen. If Apple produced a cheap Student Mac (which, of course, the iMac is supposed to be), it would invariably have a G3 on the basis of cost, and therefore not run OS X properly. All Apple cares about right now is getting OS 9 performance and better in OS X and you won't get close on anything apart from a fast (ideally dual) G4 or better.

Also, students in Britain were a lot better off in 1985 than they are now - there used to be a system of grants that Blair so kindly replaced with Fees.

I'm looking at £4500 fees for my postgrad course next year.

However, I may still buy a new Mac this summer if I can get funding from somewhere for next year's course........ Anyone wanna help me?

 

[jefhatfield]

hey, if your college even makes it once to any ncaa tourney, that is really great

to my knowledge, cal poly has never been there

i just checked out drexel's site to see about ncaa stuff just now but saw your great engineering program...wow, that is the most rigorous stuff i have ever seen outside of stanford/mit/cooper union

the national radio, abcnews/kgo, said that the northeast will become the most dominant high tech sector in the usa and one day surpass san jose and texas, who lead the high tech industry right now

i could see drexel being right in the middle of that new high tech revolution that is supposed to seek new homes for silicon valley/texas companies moving out of the san jose & texas areas to the east coast (i wonder who greased whose palms for that one...he he)

 

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


something about g5, i think

i think you are right in that it is the responisibility of the us government and not apple to make sure the usa does not fall behind anybody else in computing

i am in the IT field and i am very cynical about the whole high tech industry, which is healthy, but a more affordable mac would also, im my opinion, help apple in two ways

1) it would build up market share and and approach that sweet spot you mentioned

2) it would introduce a whole new group of users to the apple, many of whom would probably stick to apple for good, and in the end, the shareholders would become happier

i was lucky enough to study abroad during my undergrad years and go to the university of london and in england i saw students so poor that it even made the poor students in america look rich...of course in those days there were no computers in schools, but if the economy of england is as bad now as it was then (1985), i would hate to think what it would be like for the poorer students in england to try and afford a mac

This has been a hotly debated topic for a long time:
Should Apple drop prices and gain more market share, or should they maintain their prices and keep their high profit margins?

I think the idea of even lower educational pricing is a great idea (since I'm both a student and a staff member at a four-year university ).
If more states followed the example of Maine and made huge purchases to provide computers for their students Apple would be doing great, but we all saw the hub-bub created over the Maine deal.

It comes down to image. Apple has a reputation for being expensive, but not necessarily high-value. People don't understand why one computer should cost so much more than another. People also think that you can't upgrade or tinker with Macs, that you're stuck with what Apple's hardware for as long as you have the machine. But then again, they would rather let people think that and have them buy from Apple rather than outside sources.

I'm on the fence with this one. Lower priced Macs would be great, but not if it creates lower quality machines. Let eMachines, Gateway and the rest make cheap (price and quality) machines.

 

[mischief]

ARGH!

Will you please do a Thread in General for cost concerns?

Or at least tack an on-topic guess on the end of your collegic critique?

Jeez guys, I've come to expect more of you two.

 

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


This has been a hotly debated topic for a long time:
Should Apple drop prices and gain more market share, or should they maintain their prices and keep their high profit margins?

I think the idea of even lower educational pricing is a great idea (since I'm both a student and a staff member at a four-year university ).
If more states followed the example of Maine and made huge purchases to provide computers for their students Apple would be doing great, but we all saw the hub-bub created over the Maine deal.

It comes down to image. Apple has a reputation for being expensive, but not necessarily high-value. People don't understand why one computer should cost so much more than another. People also think that you can't upgrade or tinker with Macs, that you're stuck with what Apple's hardware for as long as you have the machine. But then again, they would rather let people think that and have them buy from Apple rather than outside sources.

I'm on the fence with this one. Lower priced Macs would be great, but not if it creates lower quality machines. Let eMachines, Gateway and the rest make cheap (price and quality) machines.

but apple has already used usb (an intel creation), the pc motherboard standard (universal motherboard architecture), and have used vga - another pc industry standard...and not to mention that "U" word instead of using it's own patented/copyrighted code it used to used for classic

...and the quality is still high, so apple should and could take a chance for more market share and go for that "sweet spot" which is where a lower priced computer is

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: ARGH!

Originally posted by mischief
Will you please do a Thread in General for cost concerns?

Or at least tack an on-topic guess on the end of your collegic critique?

Jeez guys, I've come to expect more of you two.

Sorry, just following the path the thread had diverted off...

Ummm, the G5 will be really *neat* when it comes out. Uhhh, it will be a Dorito running at 10Hz, but with infinite flavor potential...or something.

 

[ftaok]

All-time favorite thread

This is my all-time favorite thread. It has branches talking about all my favorite subjects.

Who's making the G5 --- I've posted this in other threads, so I'm gonna rehash it again. If you look at Motorola's PPC Road Map, you'll see that the G5 is not a desktop chip. It's designed for the embedded market. My guess is that Apple will continue to use the G4 in the consumer Macs and use IBM's G5 (or whatever they want to call it) for the pro line. That's just my theory, which is based only on conjecture and voodoo.

NCAA Tourney --- The thing I like about Drexel's program is that they aren't satisfied with being a big fish in a little pond. When I was attending (1991-1996), we were in the NAC. Small conference, but it was either us or Delaware that was getting the automatic bid. We've since moved into the Colonial Conference, which is a slightly better conference. Eventually, I would like to see Drexel being the number one team in the Big East. But that may only be a pipe dream.

Apple business policy --- I personally think that Apple has hit the sweet spot in terms of market share and profitability. Would I like to see 10% market share? YES. Would I like to see 15% profit margins? YES. Do I think Apple can get both? Sadly, no. Steve Jobs is a PR genius and he's responsible for saving the current iteration of Apple. I think he's doing as well as anyone could do. Microsoft's dominance is the main reason that the market share is where it's at.

Mac prices --- I think they affordable to most families. Could they be more affordable? YES. But they're selling them as fast as they can make them. So you can't blame them for the price that they've set. I don't think that Apple can make a $500 Mac that would still be a Mac. Maybe if they removed Firewire and used bottom of the barrel parts, they could do it, but I think it would hurt their brand image more than it would help in the bottom line.

Man, I really should get back to work.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: All-time favorite thread

Originally posted by ftaok
Man, I really should get back to work.

Work...what's that?

 

[jefhatfield]

Re: Re: All-time favorite thread

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Work...what's that?

i have a valid excuse...i am a techie and work when there is a "fire" and my wife drove home from her job with the emergency brake up so i am waiting for her car to get out of the shop so i can go my IT clients

hey, check out the new thread i started so we can keep this thread only on the "mythical" g5

 

[mischief]

You'd think I'd learn...........

not to share my stash BEFORE starting a discussion.

I'm of the mind that it'll be an IBM chip as well.........Moto's 8xxx series just doesn't look like a desktop chip.

If you want a generic PPC go look at the other chaotic thread I started about "a new vision."

 

[spikey]

Originally posted by ftaok
I am by no means rich. In my opinion, if you can't afford an $800 computer, then maybe you should be working instead of playing on a computer. Unless of course, your job is in the computer field.

Seriously though, $800 is affordable. $500 is even more so. OK, you can afford a $500 computer. But there's a guy that can only afford a $300 one. What's he gonna do?

If you can't afford a computer, you could always go to the library to use their's. Or you could pick up a used one. Apple can't compete in the ultra low end marketplace. They'd get creamed.

If this sounds harsh, sorry. Maybe I'm just too damned cynical. That East Coast upbringing and all.

The guy who cant afford a $300 computer has realised (or in a case like yours should have realised) that there isnt a market which would give profit for the company that he would buy off. It would also damage the reputation of that company and cripple the consumers attitude towards them.
If you had a brain then you would have thought of this, but dont worry here at macrumors were not the sorts to judge you.

A $500 PC would allow the company to create a little profit, but more importantly broaden the range of their user base. This is exactly what apple needs seeing as they dont have many fans. Hence proving that there is a market for a $500 user and also that unless you sort out your intellect defficiency you will lead a life of stupidity and right-wing ignorance.

Apple wouldnt get creamed in a low end market, the majority of the people in that marlet want a USABLE computer not one which has Hz.

[ed note: Ridiculously unneccessary explicatives/rant/personal attack removed. ]

 

[jefhatfield]

don"t be too hard on him/her, spikey

i think ftaok is not the one you need to go after, this person is a fellow mac user but (possibly) came from a more privelidged background than you or me, that's all (his college is kind of like john123's ivy league institution so he may have a different perspective than us non ivy leaguers/oxbridgers)

300 dollars to him is just seen as different to you or me, that's all

i too was a little privelidged, but got out of the house at 18 and it has, predictably so, been a struggle and i am glad...it is the basis for my more liberal viewpoints...before that as a kid, i was an ignorant who thought everybody had enough money for bills, computers, etc...

just outside of silicon valley where i am at, times are very hard and some techie are volunteering for free to keep their skills up

now if we get some pc using-mac hater who has all the facts wrong, then i will jump on them like you and the rest of the mac users

ps - you started something with this anti zealot thing, the only thing that burns me up more than an ignorant pc user is someone who thinks steve jobs walks on water and that apple can do no wrong (and that somehow, us rumor board people have "no excuse" to go after apple if they don't deliver) any even handed person is truly an anti-zealot

jef

 

[mischief]

And spikey IS BACK!

Jeez.......My GM's used to get on my case for not leaving recognizeable pieces of the NPC's ............it looked kinda like that post......scorched earth. Ah the fun of combined spell FX.


"Uh.....3 weapons FX, 2 Hexes, a Fireball and a lightning strike.....(chews pencil)....carry the two...multiply for level.....round up.....Hah! 52 D6!"

"That'll teach ya to kill me in the first ten minutes!"

 

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by spikey

(By the way, although the itanium was an impressive piece of kit in design it was really software and intels lack of knowledge in that field which lets it down. So the G5 might not be as powerful, but its not as far away as all that.)

I'm not saying the Itanium's that great (it's not, compared to the competition), but it's targeted at people who think a 10,000 dollar computer is cheap. The G5 isn't. I think the G5 will give a better price/performance ratio, and *much* better power consumption, but worse overall performance. It's like comparing a Mazda RX7 to a Ferrari. The Ferrari's going to win, but it costs an insane amount, and the RX7 still puts up a pretty good fight.

 

[ftaok]

Originally posted by spikey
The guy who cant afford a $300 computer has realised (or in a case like yours should have realised) that there isnt a market which would give profit for the company that he would buy off. It would also damage the reputation of that company and cripple the consumers attitude towards them.
If you had a brain then you would have thought of this, but dont worry here at macrumors were not the sorts to judge you.

A $500 PC would allow the company to create a little profit, but more importantly broaden the range of their user base. This is exactly what apple needs seeing as they dont have many fans. Hence proving that there is a market for a $500 user and also that unless you sort out your intellect defficiency you will lead a life of stupidity and right-wing ignorance.

Apple wouldnt get creamed in a low end market, the majority of the people in that marlet want a USABLE computer not one which has Hz.

[ed note: Ridiculously unneccessary explicatives/rant/personal attack removed. ]

How do you know for sure that Apple can make a profit by selling $500 Macs? Hey, if Apple thinks that they can make money in the ultra-low end market, they would go after it. It's their responsibilty to the shareholders to make money.

What exactly would be the specs on a $500 Mac? 300 Mhz G3? 5 GB HD? 64 MB RAM? Not exactly the type of computer that Apple wants for it's image.

Apple is better off leaving the low end market to guys like eMachines and PeoplePC. I don't see Dell, Gateway, or Compaq selling $500 computers (at least not advertised).

Just a note - right after 9/11, Apple was offering iMacs for $500 (or was it $400) to NYC and DC people affected by the attacks. I think that they said that they would be taking a loss for each machine sold. Apple wouldn't be making any money at all selling at $500.

BTW, I don't see anything that you've posted that "proves" anything. Just because you (and some others) would like a $500 Mac doesn't mean there's a feasible market there. Hell, I'd like a $500 Mac too, but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting.

BTW2, I've been accused of many things (i.e. narrow-minded, obnoxious, know-it-all, etc.), but I think you're the first to brand me as being "right-wing". That's a new one. Personally, I like to think of myself as being right down the middle, but maybe I'm getting older. Oh well.

 

[Wry Cooter]

Re: Re: Re: OK

Originally posted by Mac_User


ONE LAST THING
Anyone notice Apple Edu. Store is having additional price drops? Powermacs get an ADDITIONAL 50 to 100 dollars off, and powerbooks, ibooks, and the old iMac.

Apple is really trying to take a big lead in that area, i guess.

Its educational buying season.

Apple has to stay aggressive in this market, as there are plenty of Superintendants that would and could easily pass a Wintel only rule for their district, with or without a kickback from Michael Dell. Or college bookstores that would simply chose to simplify their stock.

 

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ftaok
How do you know for sure that Apple can make a profit by selling $500 Macs? Hey, if Apple thinks that they can make money in the ultra-low end market, they would go after it. It's their responsibilty to the shareholders to make money.

What exactly would be the specs on a $500 Mac? 300 Mhz G3? 5 GB HD? 64 MB RAM? Not exactly the type of computer that Apple wants for it's image.

Apple is better off leaving the low end market to guys like eMachines and PeoplePC. I don't see Dell, Gateway, or Compaq selling $500 computers (at least not advertised).

Just a note - right after 9/11, Apple was offering iMacs for $500 (or was it $400) to NYC and DC people affected by the attacks. I think that they said that they would be taking a loss for each machine sold. Apple wouldn't be making any money at all selling at $500.

BTW, I don't see anything that you've posted that "proves" anything. Just because you (and some others) would like a $500 Mac doesn't mean there's a feasible market there. Hell, I'd like a $500 Mac too, but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting.

BTW2, I've been accused of many things (i.e. narrow-minded, obnoxious, know-it-all, etc.), but I think you're the first to brand me as being "right-wing". That's a new one. Personally, I like to think of myself as being right down the middle, but maybe I'm getting older. Oh well.

as an engineer with my own business, i am up on the prices of ram and processors in the silicon valley, and there is no problem with a 500 mhz, 128 RAM machines in that range, but the hard drive price is what is the key...it would be a small hard drive and that would look silly (to some...like 8 GB)

and there would probably be only one firewire port and one usb port and no composite video out

...and forget about any titanium shell or fancy finishes...that said, it is possible and i am sure apple has considered the entry level market for at least two years and they probably have several plans if they needed to mobilize their company to fill this market

they are in the 600+ dollar range with their educational imac, so it is just a little more to make a machine around 500 dollars or so a reality...but this will take time, of course

jef...my 2 1/2 cents

 

[dpaxton]

question

If one looks at the rapidio offered by moto and ibm you can see an excellent inter-processor comm/message bus and general I/O (ibm sells a 32 crossbar switch that is quite amazing). If apple could increase its mp to 8 instead of two like linux we would have and ideal 8 way option for a new motherboard. The moto 8540 would be a very good southbridge replacing some enet with usb 2 and 1394 etc. Since connector speeds can be 800mhz why not leave the option for cpu upgrades as cards. Since I/O takes place on rapidio leave the 333mhz ddram as local memory on the card. The problem with rims or dims is they do hit the 800mhz wall for I/O. These processors will not see this for a while so just put two low profile sodims for a 128 bit bus. With pcix at 8 slots I would not buy agp again. This would be a nice inexpensive machine with one cpu card, two dims at 256meg each and some global dims for I/O cache. I could up the number of cpu cards and sodimm size for some time. This does not sound like the corperate ideal machine that one replaces every year but it sounds good to me. Ideas?

 

[jefhatfield]

i think a cpu card might be expensive due to the cache architecture involved...correct me if i am wrong...i am a pc side guy so i don't know how that would translate into a moto chip

i believe a lot of apple's high cost on their machines is their markup which they could keep on the rest of their machines, but lower the markup for a low cost machine with a g3 or g4

g5, or course, would be apple's top machine, if they even call it that