Game of Thrones (HBO)

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by Huntn, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. zmunkz macrumors 6502a

    zmunkz

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    #1876
    ... why don’t you get to decide if you found the plot satisfying?

    Nobody is saying the writers were outside their jurisdiction in making various character or plot choices (one online petition, notwithstanding). We’re just reacting to those choices as consumers, and expressing the ways the choices curtailed our experience. Seems fair to me.
     
  2. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #1877
    Think about it. This is the first Monday in years that we don’t wonder what will happen next on GOT, and the first Monday in which we will discuss everything as happening in the past :)
     
  3. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #1878
    Unless and until George R R Martin comes up with different plot twists and character arcs and narratives (and stories) in his (yet to be published) books.
     
  4. Huntn, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 21, 2019

    Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

    Joined:
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    #1879
    Scathing, brilliant, funny and spot on. Logic can overcome emotions: :D
    'Game of Thrones' series finale recap: A disaster ending that fans didn't deserve
    Subtitled: I love you, you're perfect, now die
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...n-throne-jon-dany-arya-sansa-bran/3704539002/

    This isn't what we signed up for.

    When "Game of Thrones" premiered eight years ago, it was instantly clear that the series was something different. It was a story that broke the conventions of the fantasy genre, not one that was a slave to them. Yes, the "Thrones" books and the series were inspired by J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings," but they also subverted that trilogy. Ned Stark lost his head. The Red Wedding killed Robb and Catelyn. The Mountain killed the Viper. Tragedy and injustice were as baked into the series' identity as dragons and battles.

    But that's not the show that aired its finale Sunday night. In the final episode, "The Iron Throne," the show was unrecognizable. It was hacky; it was cliched. Every character left standing received a saccharine coda. Closure is one thing, but pandering is entirely another.

    "The Iron Throne" would have been a fine ending for a different kind of TV show. It would have been a satisfying landing for a series that had long warmed hearts. But over the years, "Thrones" has been a story in which the good guys didn't win and the bad guys didn't get their comeuppance. The world the writers built wasn't fair, and good people suffered for no reason. It wasn't a particularly rosy theme, but it was one of the reasons the series became such a massive hit; why it felt relatable in spite of its otherworldy setting. It was never a fairy tale. It was as messy and broken our world is now.

    "Iron Throne" is an episode that will go down as one of the most controversial series finales of all time. For many fans, it is likely enough. Everybody who was good got their reward. Dany got her comeuppance. And there's even an argument to be made that by going for a happy-ever-after, "Thrones" subverted the expectations of everyone waiting for a bloodbath.

    But that's not what "Iron Throne" did. It didn't gracefully swerve into another lane, it careened off a cliff. And looking back at the series will never be the same.
    ——————————————-
    The Iron Throne is definitely a symbol of what killed Drogon's mama, but the man who actually killed her was standing right there. The dragon's rage fire felt like one more instance where the writers wanted something to happen and didn't know how to get it done. The Iron Throne has to go? Well a dragon can melt it. Or something.
    ——————————————-
    Much like Cersei's death last week, Dany's demise felt like a dull, anticlimactic end for such a heavily invested character. Daenerys Targaryen came into the world with a storm, and she went out with a thud.
    ——————————————-
    "Iron Throne" skips over all the messy parts (How does Jon try to explain what happened? What are the Unsullied eating? How long does it take the news of the massacre to spread? Oh, and seriously, what are the people eating? Weren't we all really worried about winter?)
    ——————————————-
    Even accepting that this as a solution, why Bran? Tyrion talks about how great his story is, but Arya and Sansa both have pretty good stories. Bran's story wasn't even worth including in Season 5.

    Bran's Three-Eyed-Raven identity remains incredibly sketchy. After surviving a mad king, a drunk king, a cruel king, a naïve king, a murderous queen and a second murderous queen, Tyrion thinks Westeros needs a robot king?

    When offered the crown, Bran responded, “Why do you think I came all this way?" Did he arrange events so that he would get a crown? He may be just as bad as her in the end.

    Bran is such a bewildering choice for king that it feels like an eleventh hour reach for the kind of shock and awe the series once had, and a lame rebuttal to all those fan theories. Like most other plot development in Seasons 7 and 8, it is mostly nonsensical. If it's where George R.R. Martin is taking the books, one can only hope he'll take more time and care to get there.
    ——————————————-
    Also of note...

    • Very happy to see Jon Snow finally pet his dog.
    • I would really like to believe that after weeks of my tweeting about his whereabouts and writing this story, Edmure Tully's reappearance was added just for me.
    • Arya's little venture westward is so open-ended I wonder if it is or ever was in the cards for a spin-off. (The last thing HBO said officially is that they're moving forward with just one prequel series.)
    • Brienne didn't need to finish Jaime's page in the Kingsguard book. She needed to write her own. Another female character ill-served by this series in the end.
     
  5. MileHighPilot macrumors member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2018
    #1880
    one of my coworkers said drogon didnt kill john snow because he was a targaryan but your post raises a question
    which targaryans did the dragons kill
    not to mention people wont have to take mondays off from work or call out due to got parties
     
  6. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

    Joined:
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    #1881


    Drogon was forced to kill thousands of innocents. He loved mama, but I am pretty sure he realized that mama was a bit of a bitch because of the throne.



    That is what being an ****** in Westeros gets you. I mean, even Joffrey was poisoned; no fight, nothing, just poison.



    Sansa had to be ruled out because her accepting the throne would've meant the end of Winterfell's independence.
    Arya simply refused it; heck she didn't even want to stay in Westeros!
    As for Bran, he is the wisest of them all, and they all know it.



    Because he's wise and peaceful; that is, he's not corruptible by feelings. Can't even have sex. Doesn't get drunk. I mean he's stoic as stoicism can get :)


    The crown as a tool is meaningless to Bran, it's pretty obvious by the way he handled the cabinet meeting. His concern is not day-to-day, his concern is humanity as a whole (although I do agree that this point is weak).
     
  7. Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #1882
    This sounds true, an example of a brilliant author writing himself into a corner, he is not smart enough to escape from. I won’t be holding my breath for the new books.
    --- Post Merged, May 20, 2019 ---
    I understand you disagree with this article. :D
     
  8. sunapple macrumors 68000

    sunapple

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    #1883
    Can't be worse than the show... The way I read it, it's just costing him more time than expected. Wouldn't say he won't be able to solve it.
     
  9. Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #1884
    I hope you are right and his ending is better.
     
  10. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    Aug 19, 2017
    #1885
    The more I think about this, the more it seems fitting for him to have been burned by Drogon alongside the throne. The Targaryen's made the throne, he's the last Targaryen heir to it. It's kinda hinted that to rule the kingdoms successfully from it, you need to be a bit ruthless and wield extreme personal power like Aegon - Jon showed himself to be quite soft and with Rheagal dead he didn't have access to the might of a Dragon (Drogon is and always was Dany's). It also has a sort of Romeo and Juliet tragedy fittingness about it.

    With where ADWD leaves off, I find it inconceivable that it won't unfold very, very differently, even if it ends up landing in more or less the same place. There's just too many characters still around that the show either didn't include, merged with another, or killed off prematurely. Not to mention the artefacts which were missing from the show...
     
  11. Huntn, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019

    Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #1886
    • Drogon, was he smart enough to realize Jon murdered her? Jon was cradling her tenderly. And Jon had dragon blood, so he had an infinity with Dragons, but I would not have been surprised if he had killed Jon in his rage, if he knew or did not know who murdered her.
    • Grey Worm, killing Jon in a rage, I could have expected it, but we would have needed to see that. Locking Jon up seemed out of character, for this character.
    • Drogon taking his wrath out on a throne that he probably had no clue that it was a symbol, or the history of the Targarians seems like that was an unlikely event, or did the throne just happen to be in that direction? Maybe this is a really smart dragon, but no story development time was used to explain dragon IQ. ;)
    • The ending we got was unexpected, but a little too sugar coated for this series imo.
    Bottom line, Jon being killed by Danny’s dragon seemed like the most realistic ending , and more appropriate to the narrative for the man who murdered the Dragon Queen. When I saw that fire building in Drogon’s open mouth, I thought, here it comes! Poor throne. ;):)
     
  12. zmunkz macrumors 6502a

    zmunkz

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    Nov 4, 2007
    #1887
    I’m not sure what to expect from the remaining books. I know a lot of people take refuge in the fact the show left the source material behind, but they did have access to Martin and he did give them outlines and the landing point for all of the major arcs. Perhaps they didn’t know how he was getting there, which is no small thing, but I suspect the big picture is the same one he had planned. Dany dies at the hands of Jon, after going mad, and Bran becomes the elected king.

    Just on that… I think GRRM is on record saying that he had originally considered an Arya spin-off after the books. This was one of the hints that led many people to believe Arya would survive to the end.
     
  13. Shanghaichica macrumors G4

    Shanghaichica

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    UK
    #1888
    In the dance of the dragons in fire and blood there was a Targaryen civil war and the dragons and Targaryens killed each other.
     
  14. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #1889
    I wonder if there is some allegorical meaning here. She was the savior while the NK was the bad guy. In the end, they were both butchering humans and she intended to move forward in her butchering, so there wasn't much difference between the two, at least from a results perspective.
    Is Gray Worm and his army the equivalent of the NK's army? Once the leader is lost, all is lost.
     
  15. loon3y macrumors 65816

    loon3y

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    #1890
    Anyone that doesn’t see writers cop out, rushed execution is either in biased denial or never saw any quality writing.

    All those storylines built up in the books and shows have been demolished.

    It’s just extremely sad. Plot points, dialogue, etc etc.
    After the show moved passed the books, the quality sunk.

    But this finale is just ridiculous. Hollywood gimmicks and tacky tactics for such a great prime time show.
     
  16. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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  17. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #1893
    It's an interesting question, and I don't think it's explicitly addressed in either the book or show - my personal impression was that the Dragons are meant to be somewhat smarter than just any old beast, but of course still not on a Human level of sentience. It seems odd he turned away at the last moment by chance, so I feel like it was a conscious decision not to kill him - the only thing I can think of is that he recognised Jon as Dany's lover and therefore had a certain amount of respect for him. But that also implies him being intelligent enough to probably also put 2 and 2 together that Jon killed her?

    Yes I think the dynamic between Dany's army left under Grey Worm and the city seemed a bit off for the final part - particularly if GW was also meant to be unstable from Missandei's execution, I'd have thought Dany being killed would have made him go even more berserk and sack the city entirely or something.

    There is some interesting Lore around where Arya is going and what she might expect to find, though I will leave that for you/ anyone else who reads this to look up as it's quite in depth!
     
  18. Huntn, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019

    Huntn thread starter macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #1894
    GW always struck me as a good follower, who believed in Danny’s message unchaining the little people. Now while I can see him being really pissed about his girl friend being offed by Cersei, I have a hard time understanding how he would not be appalled by the indiscriminate killing of the little people, which was a complete 180, inconsistent with her past campaigns.

    Instead he seemed to be just as mad and indiscriminate as his Queen when came to his vengeance. And yet, he lets Jon live, the guy who killed the Queen he was devoted too? And in the end, he just wipes his hands and says enough of this BS, I/we are out of here! :) Except for the previous sentence, it is inconsistent writing.

    Real life frequently make no sense, and is not that exciting, but when we invest ourselves in a story like this we have standards and expectations. We demand to be thrilled. And although completely within the realm of realism, I never expected Cersei to go out hiding in the basement. Instead, something like in her moment of triumph, Ayra pulling off her Mountain disguise and putting Needle through Cercei’s heart. ;) Yes, she already sprang out of nowhere to finish the Night King, so that would have been repetitive. But with what we got in the words of Switch (Matrix ref): Not like this! I did like the Clegan Bowl though. :)
    --- Post Merged, May 20, 2019 ---
    Hilarious! :D
     
  19. ThunderSkunk macrumors 68030

    ThunderSkunk

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    #1895
    That’s the only explanation I could come up with too. Maybe Dragons aren’t as smart as everyone thought. Or, maybe just that particular dragon wasn’t. ...being the last of his kind & all. Not having parents to learn from, or a properly funded education system to provide a bare minimum of dragon reasoning, or human contextual comprehension 101.
     
  20. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #1896
    I do agree that the post Dany's death time jump was a 100% cheap trick by the writers. As I said in my first post after the episode, this was a weak finale. Not horrible, but certainly not great or memorable either. I also expected something much stronger (see TP The Return for example, I still think about it), but in the end I got an average ending that I will probably forget about. It doesn't destroy the series. I will watch it again, and I will enjoy the entertainment, but yes as a conclusion it's not as good as it could've been.
     
  21. iLog.Genius macrumors 601

    iLog.Genius

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    #1897
    100% agree. After the aftermath of Kings Landing burning down, I expected something more intense to follow which we kind of got when Dany's was giving her speech and Jon and Tyrion were looking at each other in angst - you thought something that might happen. Instead, the best part of the episode only lasted a few minutes from the conversation between Jon and Tyrion. The rest of the episode felt like something that would usually take 5 minutes and be put at the very end of an episode to wrap it up but instead they stretched it for 1 hour+.

    For all the hype, this was one very weak finale.
     
  22. Shanghaichica, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019

    Shanghaichica macrumors G4

    Shanghaichica

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    #1898
    I’m really disappointed to be honest. I watched the first season and then I went off and read all the books. I loved the books so much that I refused to watch the TV show and then around season 6 I decided I’d start watching again and I watched season 2-5 then carried on watching. I just knew the TV show couldn’t do it justice and now it’s panned out for me.

    The books are just so epic, probably the best I’ve ever had read. We probably won’t get the rest of the books now so we’ll never get the true story.
    --- Post Merged, May 20, 2019 ---
    Also I would have rather they just played the mad Targaryen card and made it as though she snapped due to the grief. Even though it would have been a cop out. However making Dany into an over night Tyrant was terrible. The way she was portrayed was as a despot. She wasn’t mad just very evil. That’s not madness. However she became a despot overnight.

    In the past she was ruthless to those who had wronged her or who opposed her. She was always about getting the iron throne, but then over the course of an episode she wanted destroy the whole world and remake it in her image.
     
  23. ritmomundo macrumors 68000

    ritmomundo

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    #1899
    Well, I’m glad the finale brought a closing to all of the character arcs. In that sense, I’m satisfied.

    I started thinking about why they made such a big deal of Jon’s lineage since last season (and really the whole series), and how disappointing it was that in the end it didn’t really lead to much. The R+L=J hints.. Bran’s visions.. Sam’s discovery.. Varys’s letters.. It all seems like such a waste, when Jon just ends up back at the Wall anyway.

    And then it hit me.. Maybe Bran WANTED to be king all along. If he hadn’t insisted on telling Jon his lineage, it wouldn’t have set in motion the sequence of events that pushed Dany over the edge. Maybe he foresaw that it was the only way to get both Jon and Dany out of the picture and then he’d have a shot at the crown.. And his whole “I don’t want anymore” attitude was just an act. This was Bran playing and winning the game of thrones.

    Or maybe I'm grasping at straws and just want it to make more sense. :p
     
  24. iLog.Genius macrumors 601

    iLog.Genius

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    #1900
    That was the main thing that bothered me the most. All episode, I was waiting for that card to be played. Being the last male Targaryen, had to have some play within the current landscape of the 6 kingdoms. But nope, let's ignore that and put force him into the Night's Watch as a punishment.

    As for Bran, I truly think he didn't want to be king or ruler but he would take the role if they needed him to be - at the end all the houses agreed with how a ruler should be appointed.
     

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