George Hotz sued by Sony... ouch

[CZK]

http://geohot.com/


Sony is suing Geohot for his unpatchable and undetectable ps3 jailbreak that is using sony's signing keys.

Note that he was not trying to promote piracy in any way shape or form.

Also he didn't violate their ToS.



http://geohot.com/ProposedOrder.pdf

 

[lucifiel]

...

Also he didn't violate their ToS.

http://geohot.com/ProposedOrder.pdf

Are you a lawyer?

 

[bbplayer5]

lol... what does his hack do again?

 

[CZK]

Are you a lawyer?

Not yet why ?

He did not violate their tos, from what he said and what i read. I could be wrong.

lol... what does his hack do again?

Ps3 jailbreak obviously. Using sony's signing keys ( google it).

I bet EFF will jump into that !

 

[ravenvii]

I'll be the first to declare that I understand little of what jailbreaking the PS3 accomplishes, but I'm basing this on my understanding of jailbreaking as applied to the iOS devices.

With that said, I've read the motion for a TRO, and it's pathetic and full of FUD meant to sway a technologically illiterate person. Hopefully the Hon. Seeborg sees right through this and throws out the motion.

And grant Hotz's motion to dismiss (if his lawyer enters such a motion).

But then again, I understand little of what the jailbreak actually entails, and IANAL.

 

[labman]

I think they are just trying to accomplish the same thing jailbreaking does for the iPhone freeing the device from some restrictions it's still early to see what fail0verflow and Geohot have in mind honestly I think they are planing some apps hacks etc. they have made it clear that they don't want piracy but that is difficult to control. Sony is also names fail0verflow that discovered a exploit I have a PS3 how I know. should be interesting the fail0verflow team is also not US the law suit is so not sure how that's gonna work. the team says they have canceled all plans to travel to the US. that was more in jest then anything.

 

[Vatche]

WTF does this have to do with iphone hacks?

 

[CZK]

WTF does this have to do with iphone hacks?

Sorry i thought that geohot was the guy behind limera1n. I'm so dumb.

 

[ravenvii]

I think they are just trying to accomplish the same thing jailbreaking does for the iPhone freeing the device from some restrictions it's still early to see what fail0verflow and Geohot have in mind honestly I think they are planing some apps hacks etc. they have made it clear that they don't want piracy but that is difficult to control. Sony is also names fail0verflow that discovered a exploit I have a PS3 how I know. should be interesting the fail0verflow team is also not US the law suit is so not sure how that's gonna work. the team says they have canceled all plans to travel to the US. that was more in jest then anything.

That's a good point - I don't know where George Hotz is actually located, and the court might not even have jurisdiction over him. However, I suspect he's in the United States - and in California at that - because Sony and that law firm up there in 2 Embarcadero Center can't be *that* dumb to forget basic rules of civil procedure.

With that said, whether it leads to piracy or not is really irrelevant. This concerns the hacking of a device so that it does what it was not meant to do - like the jailbreaking of the iPhone - not to circumvent copyright protection schemes (an example is the ripping of encrypted DVDs and Blu-Rays).

Hell, the FCC has released a statement that such hacking (jailbreaking) is kosher. And Sony has themselves left the key lying around for anyone to find and take. They just don't have much of a case here.

 

[CZK]

An excerpt from the lawsuit reads:

Defendants George Hotz, “Bushing,” Hector Cantero, Sven Peter and “Segher”
(collectively, “Defendants”) are computer hackers. Working individually and in concert with one another, Defendants recently bypassed effective technological protection measures (“TPMs”) employed by plaintiff Sony Computer Entertainment America LLP (“SCEA”) in its proprietary PlayStation®3 computer entertainment system (“PS3 System”). Through the Internet, Defendants are distributing software, tools and instructions (collectively, “Circumvention Devices”) that circumvent the TPMs in the PS3 System and facilitate the counterfeiting of video games. Already, pirated video games are being packaged and distributed with these circumvention devices. Declaration of Ryan T. Bricker In Support of Ex Parte Motion for Temporary Restraining Order And Order To Show Cause Re Preliminary Injunction; Order for Impoundment (“Bricker Decl.”) ¶2, Exh. A. Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 65 and Local Rules 65-1 and 7-10, SCEA moves ex parte to put an immediate halt to the ongoing distribution of these illegal Circumvention Devices and avoid
irreparable harm to SCEA and to other video game software developers stemming from video game piracy.

Jailbreaking facilitate game piracy as dvd burners facilitate movie piracy. We should make dvd burners illegal right ?

Jailbreaking should be legal on ps3 too, like it is on iphone. Piracy is illegal and i do not support it. Jailbreaking =/= piracy thats the point.

GL to gehot ( i guess he wont have time for rubyra1n now lolol)

 

[jav6454]

Jailbreaking an iPhone is way different than jailbreaking a PS3....

 

[Bandolier]

His keys allow root access to the NAND. That's what his hacks do.

 

[thelatinist]

That's a good point - I don't know where George Hotz is actually located, and the court might not even have jurisdiction over him. However, I suspect he's in the United States - and in California at that - because Sony and that law firm up there in 2 Embarcadero Center can't be *that* dumb to forget basic rules of civil procedure.

Geohot's from New Jersey and goes to school in the Chicago area. But if you read the papers, there's a whole section establishing jurisdiction in California based on his use of Twitter, Paypal, YouTube and (probably most importantly) the PS3 TOS which specifies that all disputes arising under the TOS will be settled in a San Diego court.

Jailbreaking an iPhone is way different than jailbreaking a PS3....

In what way? In both cases, you're talking about gaining root access to a device that's been protected. Technically it's a very different process, but legally it's really not.

 

[Applejuiced]

Sounds like Sony took a big hit and now is crying and trying to scare off people from hacking their PS3.
Hope it dont get far and justice is served the same way that Jailbreaking a phone is legal so should be with game concoles IMO.
Geohot and others that took part in JB the PS3 will go thru hell, spend lots of money and have to deal with alot of BS but I hope they come out on top.

 

[Diode]

All I know is since the PS3 jailbreak has hit - hackers in online games on the PS3 have skyrocketed....

 

[CZK]

His jailbreak is back on his website ( geohot.com ( was removed a couple of hours ago)). Grab a copy while you still can.

 

[jav6454]

In what way? In both cases, you're talking about gaining root access to a device that's been protected. Technically it's a very different process, but legally it's really not.

In the iPhone's case, there is a reason to jailbreak, Unlocking. On the PS3, there is no true reason, but to pirate. Yes you could argue its to enable more productivity and to have more features, but still, the general usage of the jailbreak of the PS3 overall has been for worse not better.

 

[CZK]

In the iPhone's case, there is a reason to jailbreak, Unlocking. On the PS3, there is no true reason, but to pirate. Yes you could argue its to enable more productivity and to have more features, but still, the general usage of the jailbreak of the PS3 overall has been for worse not better.

Homebrew utilities

This does not promote piracy at all.

 

[TMar]

Hell, the FCC has released a statement that such hacking (jailbreaking) is kosher. And Sony has themselves left the key lying around for anyone to find and take. They just don't have much of a case here.

What does the federal communications commission have to do with jailbreaking? If your referring to the U.S. Copyright Office's statement all they said that it didn't infringe on Apple's copyright. It makes for bigger headlines when you put "Jailbreaking no longer illegal" then to say "legal gray area declared non-infringement". It rolls of the tongue better.

I'm still reading over the TRO but it doesn't look like Sony has a foot to stand on. Having and using the encryption keys shouldn't be an copyright infringement and there shouldn't be any CFAA violations.

 

[jav6454]

Homebrew utilities

This does not promote piracy at all.

True it does not. But unlike the iPhone, jailbreaking has a higher purpose and is a tool to achieve a goal, unlocking. I explained this earlier. A by product is homebrew apps on the iPhone as well.

Now, as per the PS3, there is no higher purpose or goal. Homebrew it is, and it will be pretty hard for a bunch of hackers to prove this was it given the fact that piracy soared on the PS3 right after the jailbreak was released.

 

[CZK]

What does the federal communications commission have to do with jailbreaking? If your referring to the U.S. Copyright Office's statement all they said that it didn't infringe on Apple's copyright. It makes for bigger headlines when you put "Jailbreaking no longer illegal" then to say "legal gray area declared non-infringement". It rolls of the tongue better.

I'm still reading over the TRO but it doesn't look like Sony has a foot to stand on. Having and using the encryption keys shouldn't be an copyright infringement and there shouldn't be any CFAA violations.

They are only trying to scare them obviously. And since geohot.com is back with all download available i think it did not work quite well.

Here is an interesting article explaning that he he did not break any laws and Sony has nothing to sue him.

http://www.blogsdna.com/15445/george-hotz-geohot-and-others-sued-by-sony.htm

 

[Applejuiced]

True it does not. But unlike the iPhone, jailbreaking has a higher purpose and is a tool to achieve a goal, unlocking. I explained this earlier. A by product is homebrew apps on the iPhone as well.

Now, as per the PS3, there is no higher purpose or goal. Homebrew it is, and it will be pretty hard for a bunch of hackers to prove this was it given the fact that piracy soared on the PS3 right after the jailbreak was released.

Yes, but by JB an iphone you can also install pirated software for free just like on the PS3's case.
Just because you JB/hack something it doesnt mean you're responsible for what people will do with it.
Some might make their own homebrew and others just be pirates.
Same reason you cant outlaw CD/DVD burners cause with those you could potentially pirate stuff etc...
I dont know, sounds like a scare tactic to me cause thats all they can do besides throwing in the towel.

 

[TMar]

True it does not. But unlike the iPhone, jailbreaking has a higher purpose and is a tool to achieve a goal, unlocking. I explained this earlier. A by product is homebrew apps on the iPhone as well.

Now, as per the PS3, there is no higher purpose or goal. Homebrew it is, and it will be pretty hard for a bunch of hackers to prove this was it given the fact that piracy soared on the PS3 right after the jailbreak was released.

The thing is they don't have to prove anything, Sony has to prove what their intent was. Innocent until proven guilty. A lot of good can come from a jailbroken PS3 but you have to take the good with the bad, fact of life.

Jailbreaking the iphone sole purpose wasn't an unlock. It was the unlock and the lack of third part apps from Apple which were equally important to the community. It wasn't the accidental by product you make it out to be.

 

[Applejuiced]

The thing is they don't have to prove anything, Sony has to prove what their intent was. Innocent until proven guilty. A lot of good can come from a jailbroken PS3 but you have to take the good with the bad, fact of life.

Jailbreaking the iphone sole purpose wasn't an unlock. It was the unlock and the lack of third part apps from Apple which were equally important to the community. It wasn't the accidental by product you make it out to be.

Well said.
Hopefully the courts will use the same logic that Library of Congress Copyright Office used when ruling that iPhone jailbreaking was legal. "When one jailbreaks a smartphone in order to make the operating system on that phone interoperable with an independently created application that has not been approved by the maker of the smartphone or the maker of its operating system, the modifications that are made purely for the purpose of such interoperability are fair uses."

 

[lucifiel]

Not yet why ?

He did not violate their tos, from what he said and what i read. I could be wrong.

I wanted to see whether you were basing your assertion on a legal analysis or otherwise.

I haven't read the TOS, so I don't know whether geohot is in breach of the TOS or not.

And I also think the focus on the potential for piracy is somewhat misguided, largely due to the fact that rooting the PS3 is not pirating anything, the fact that you CAN pirate after you root the PS3 is a matter for the pirate, not the person rooting the PS3 (unless of course there is some element of procuring and aiding/abetting etc). The only question appears to be that is rooting a PS3 in contravention of a) Sony's copyright and b) any agreement between Sony and Geohot (the ToS).