I think that's just vbulletin changing it from all caps. Thankfully.
e.e.cummings would be proud.
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Germanization of the English grammar
- Thread starter rajalot
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I think that's just vbulletin changing it from all caps. Thankfully.
e.e.cummings would be proud.
Yes, English started out much more "German-like" but then two things happened (1) it picked up much new vocabulary from (not in order) Romans, France and the Norseman (vikings) all of whom invaded England and brought there language with them. And (2) Over time the complex German-like grammar and word ending and gender system was greatly simplified.
This is the reason English is so large and has so many exceptions to rules. It is a composite language. the English people picked up bits of language from the various groups that passed through or ruled over them the last few thousand years. Some of those bit "stuck" and others disappeared.
I think English usage on Internet forums is much different then you se in other places. Also the majority of the text you see may be from non-native speakers. Many times I've seen people using English where neither is a native speaker. When you see this in print it is not an example of how English is changing.
I give a lot of credit to non-native English speakers who have mastered any part of this perverse language. Still, I think you may be referring to what amounts to pidgin English -- a way English is changing perhaps, but more a function of the development of dialects of English in places where English is not the native language.
Much of the real slaughtering of the language is taking place at the hands of native speakers. They either (1) never learned the rules or (2) don't care. Probably both in equal measures.
....
I will say it again, all nouns, whether a person, place or thing, were capitalized in older forms of English. As a previous poster noted, English is a Germanic language that evolved over many centuries from an offshoot of German, to a language which openly assimilates words from other languages. In fact, there is a completely different set of consonant sounds in Old and Middle English. If you are interested in how the language has evolved, google Grimm's law (yes, the same Grimm who wrote the fairy tales), or pick up a student's linguistics text.
-Nathan
I will say it again, all nouns, whether a person, place or thing, were capitalized in older forms of English. As a previous poster noted, English is a Germanic language that evolved over many centuries from an offshoot of German, to a language which openly assimilates words from other languages. In fact, there is a completely different set of consonant sounds in Old and Middle English. If you are interested in how the language has evolved, google Grimm's law (yes, the same Grimm who wrote the fairy tales), or pick up a student's linguistics text.
-Nathan
Ugro-finnic is a fun one. the language of Finland and Hungary. (Most people don't realize that Hungarians were a Finnish tribe that migrated south)
don't forget Celtic, which originated in Eastern Europe and migrated West.
Hmmm. I think there might be a few more???
This is a somewhat deceptive explanation. Both German and English are considered to have the same root language -- which is "Germanic," not "German." All languages assimilate words. This is not a linguistic characteristic unique to English.
Good work. Actually, what I should have said is that English is an amalgamation of Indo-European languages and, like you so wonderfully pointed out, is from a Germanic root. A gander at Grimm's laws will nevertheless, make the dramatic evolution of English, and most other Indo-European languages, easy to see. As a topic that started out about capitalization, I will continue to state that the capitalization of nouns was once commonplace when English still retained more of its Germanic roots.
Thank you.
oh! don't forget the native Brit's language, the tribe on the island before the Angles invaded also influenced the language. And also the Norman Celtic language (yes the Normans are in fact Celtic as is French Brittany) and I believe there are a few countries in south east europe with completely different grammar structures? I can't quit remember it has been so many years since my Nations and Religions course in Vienna.
The history of the Huns is far from clear even to the Huns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languagesWikipedia said:
Many Celts, mostly those living along the Atlantic seaboard of Europe, in Portugal, Spain, France, Ireland and Britain, spoke Brythonic, Goidelic, Gaelic or Gallic, but there was not "a" Celtic language.
Other European languages and language families include Basque (an "isolate", unrelated to any other known language), Maltese, Altaic, and Caucasian.
The Normans were not Celtic. They were Vikings (Norsemen) who settled along the North coast of France, and presumably originally spoke a variety of Nordic. The Bretons speak a variety of Gaelic. The reason it is called Brittany or Bretagne is because large numbers of Britons emigrated there when the Germanic tribes moved in to their British (or Brythonic) territories from the East.
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source?
skunk said:
source?
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I'm positive the Normans were Celtic as I remember studying it in college. I will stop in the library tomorrow and research. Wikipedia doesn't count skunk
I'm positive the Normans were Celtic as I remember studying it in college. I will stop in the library tomorrow and research. Wikipedia doesn't count skunk
I believe you're right.
This is an interesting thread. English is such an odd language, and nobody 2-300 years ago would've guessed it would become the lingua franca of the world.
You may say Wikipedia does not count, but the article cited is merely the most readily findable link to confirm what I know. I'd be fascinated to know what you think the derivations of "Norman" and "Bretagne" are otherwise.Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5A347 Safari/525.20)
I'm positive the Normans were Celtic as I remember studying it in college. I will stop in the library tomorrow and research. Wikipedia doesn't count skunk
Don't start a fight over language. English is so f'd up right now, with there being so many idiosyncrasies between English, American, Canadian, Australian (& NZ), and "International English" that in some respects they are not the same language. Especially when you get into the different stressing of different letters and syllables.
TEG
TEG
interesting to note that the Franks name is derived from a Germanic tribe. Of course, the small tribe was assimilated by the Romans and became the name for the French.
also interesting is that the red hair and fair skin incorrectly associated with the Irish is actually a Norwegian trait. a coupke hundred years of wars left its marks
also interesting is that the red hair and fair skin incorrectly associated with the Irish is actually a Norwegian trait. a coupke hundred years of wars left its marks
Hardly surprising, but not necessarily a product of war: Dublin was founded as a Viking settlement, after all.
wiki said:
History of Normandy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Coat of Arms of Normandy
Normandy was a province in the North-West of France under the Ancien Régime. Initially populated by Celtic and Belgian tribes in the East, and Ligures and Iberians in the West, it was conquered in 56 AD by the Romans and integrated into the province of Gallia Lugdunensis by Augustus. In the 4th century, Gratian divided the province into the civitates which constitute the historical borders. After the fall of Rome in the 5th century, the Franks became the dominant ethnic group in the area, built several monasteries, and replaced the barbarism of the region with the civilization of the Carolingian Empire. Towards the end of the 8th century, Viking raids devastated the region, prompting the establishment of the Duchy of Normandy in 911. After 150 years of expansion, the borders of Normandy reached relative stability. These old borders roughly correspond to the present borders of Basse-Normandie, Haute-Normandie and the Channel Islands. Mainland Normandy was integrated into the Kingdom of France in 1204. The region was badly damaged during the Hundred Years War and the Wars of Religion, the Normans having more converts to Protestantism than other peoples of France. In the 20th century, D-Day, the 1944 Allied invasion of Northern Europe, started in Normandy. In 1956, mainland Normandy was separated into two régions, Basse-Normandie and Haute-Normandie, although proposals to unify the regions are under consideration.
More is known about Celtic Normandy due to the archeological sources being more numerous and easier to date. As early as the 19th century, local scholars studied archeological sites (especially those of Haute-Normandie) and recorded their discoveries. They discovered objects such as the Gallic gilded helmet of dAmfreville-la-Mi-Voie, made in the 4th century BC, and the iron helmet currently in the Museum of Louviers. They also examined the cemetery at Pîtres with its urns for cremated remains. The artifacts found at these sites indicate Gallic presence in Normandy as far back as the times of the Hallstatt or Tène cultures.
side note: I just learned that the term Gaul comes from the Belgian Celts... thats pretty cool.
side note: I just learned that the term Gaul comes from the Belgian Celts... thats pretty cool.
I am not disputing the history of Normandy, only saying that the Normans themselves were originally Vikings (hence the name), not Celts. Of course the people who lived there before the Normans arrived were Celts or Gaels (and Franks), of that there is no dispute. The Belgae were a Celtic tribe, to be sure, but the derivation of both "Celt" and "Gaul" is not certain. In its own language it probably means "the people" as with many other languages, and is related to Wales, Gaels, Galles, (Corn)wall, (Portu)gal, Galataea, and more besides. The Celts themselves seem to have originated in Switzerland and Southern Germany, around La Tène and Hallstadt.