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ScottishCaptain

macrumors 6502a
Oct 4, 2008
871
474
Hate to say it but I don't think it'll get any better the way things are going.

iOS, Windows and OS X are headed towards the model of computers as appliances, with specific, defined functionality. Press this button to buy an app, that button to buy some music, or this one to write an email.

That's nice.

So where do you think apps are magically going to come from? If everything is reduced down to a facebook/twitter-checking-appliance, where are developers going to do actual work (you know, actually creating stuff) making applications that empower these platforms?

iOS wouldn't be where it is right now without Mac OS X and Xcode. Keep that in mind. Some people want an operating system that stays out of their way. This forced-hand-holding stuff in Lion is not "staying out of the way". It's planting itself right in front of you and refusing to move until you accept Apple's new way of "doing things".

-SC
 

kemo

macrumors 6502a
Oct 29, 2008
821
201
I bought an early 2011 2.3GHz 15" MBP(MacBookPro8,2), with SL already installed, right before Lion came out. This was the top-end over-the-counter 15" model that was as fast as some of the 17" models and has a Thunderbolt port.

Initially I was going to wait for the next OS (Lion), but after seeing what they had done to Spaces, I decided to get one with SL while I could.

My understanding is that ones that came with Lion installed are difficult, if not impossible, to take back to SL.

Thanks, well then it seems I wont get it brand new already, because they are offering just Lion preinstalled. Then it seems Im gonna stick with my mid 2010 i5, 8GB, SSD for now and wait if they come with some high res displays for Laptops as well.
 

LostSoul80

macrumors 68020
Jan 25, 2009
2,136
7
I think it's very hardware dependent. If you have a 2011 Mac and maybe more RAM than the stock one, you're fine. If not, SL remains your best option.
 

Gomff

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2009
802
1
That's nice.

So where do you think apps are magically going to come from? If everything is reduced down to a facebook/twitter-checking-appliance, where are developers going to do actual work (you know, actually creating stuff) making applications that empower these platforms?

iOS wouldn't be where it is right now without Mac OS X and Xcode. Keep that in mind. Some people want an operating system that stays out of their way. This forced-hand-holding stuff in Lion is not "staying out of the way". It's planting itself right in front of you and refusing to move until you accept Apple's new way of "doing things".

-SC

I've got to be honest, my reaction to being commanded to "Keep that in mind" isn't positive but I'm going to do my best not to get in a dust up with you, particularly since the second half of your post seems to contradict the first half, and which I actually agree with....Unless you've quoted someone else there but forgotten the quote tags?

If you value your freedom to do what you want with your computer hardware, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc

SOPA is just the beginning of the stripping away of your rights to use a computer how you like.
 

doktordoris

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2009
532
1
Just read this whole thread. I have no probs at all with Lion on either of my machines, but they are 2011 macs, and anecdotal evidence is useless. what I wanted to know was why do some posters here slag off the win snap function? I thought it does the same thing as better touch tool i.e. made a window fill half or quarter or all of the screen depending on where the window is dragged to. I love BTT and use it all the time, what do folks dislike about it? or does snap do something else?
 

Joos24

macrumors regular
Nov 20, 2011
107
0
Just read this whole thread. I have no probs at all with Lion on either of my machines, but they are 2011 macs, and anecdotal evidence is useless. what I wanted to know was why do some posters here slag off the win snap function? I thought it does the same thing as better touch tool i.e. made a window fill half or quarter or all of the screen depending on where the window is dragged to. I love BTT and use it all the time, what do folks dislike about it? or does snap do something else?

BTT is better because you can choose to turn off Snap if you don't want it and still use BTT's other functions. IMO, while the snap is nice in W7, it's annoying as well and our business office turns that feature off. It frustrates people when moving windows around and it resizes to the snap feature. It's a useful feature sometimes but comparing windows side by side isn't something I do daily so it's great you can get it BTT as an option but I wouldn't miss it if that feature was gone the next day.

Generally when I need to compare windows side by side I use App Expose. Also I like the fact that Lion offers more than just two windows to compare. That something that Windows 7's snap feature doesn't do.
 

doktordoris

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2009
532
1
aha, thanks for your reply. As I said I think BTT is great, I love being able to make finder windows, programs, and browser windows share the screen easily. WHen I used to own an MBP15 running snow leopard (which was my first ever mac, I bought it April 2010, and had it stolen in Feb 2011) the one thing about switching to OSX that I found difficult to adapt to was the way windows would maximise themselves to the size they wanted, not to fill the screen. But since I bought my 2 new macs last month I have used BTT and loved it, especially when combined with the brilliant way Lion uses virtual desktops.
 

Hephaestus

macrumors 6502
Apr 4, 2010
356
13
I have Snow Leopard on my MBP, but after coming home and using the iMac for the first time in a while, I've just remembered how awful Lion really is. It really is appalling and I'm still surprised Apple released this thing.

Why does the dashboard appear on this horrific plastic car mat background? I know you can change it, but Apple set it to default which means they think it looks good... have they all banged their heads lately?

Why does it ask EVERY time I shut down if I want to relaunch the windows? WHY would I want to relaunch windows after I shut down? WHY?! Think about it logically Apple! Having that as an option for a restart would make sense, and even then there should be a setting to permanently disable it.

Why are the scroll bars so awful? They can barely be seen and don't fit the aesthetic of the OS. Why isn't there an option to have the scroll arrows? If one is using a third party mouse, those buttons are very important.

Why is the colour being stripped out of most of the OS?! WHY?! The finder looks so barren and lifeless, its so grey and boring. The colour in my SL finder looks wonderful, Lion in comparison looks like SL's predecessor for a less capable computer, one that cannot even render simple colours!

Why have they eliminated the whole point of Expose?! Expose is supposed to bring all of my windows into view. On Lion, it layers windows of the same application so they cannot even be seen! That eliminates the point!

To make things worse, my desktop background shrinks and is surrounded my an ugly metal border EVERY time I use it! Why incorporate Spaces when it works perfectly in SL? I use Spaces all the time on my MPB and its great, Lion has screwed up both. These just seem like pointless alterations that were done just for the sake of change. They didn't actually think about functionality.

Don't even get me started on Launchpad. This is the most ridiculous addition to any Apple OS I've ever seen. Ever heard of Spotlight? Or dragging the Applications folder into the dock? Both are faster and more efficient than Launchpad.

Eugh, you really screwed up with this one Apple. Even the darn download progress bar has been ruined! Many of you might be annoyed by this post and view it as whining. Well, to me it needs to be said. Sooner or later I'll probably be forced to upgrade to this hideous "upgrade" of an OS.
 

Gomff

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2009
802
1
Hephaestus,

Despite the grief you'll get from apologists in some quarters, you're not alone in your dismay :)

The thing is, people will complain about others "Still whining about it 6 months later" as if it's your fault, rather than a sign of how badly Apple has crossed some of their customers. And that's the thing here......The criticism isn't coming from Windows users trying to get a rise out of Apple apologists (easy as that would be).....it's coming from loyal Apple (mostly pro) users who are having a genuine WTF scenario every time they try and crack on with Lion. And the fact that we haven't got round those issues after 6 odd months is a measure of just how severely off piste Apple have gone this time....The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.

I'm hoping Apple will address the concerns you mentioned by making them optional, as well as a few more that others have mentioned, including me.
 

jameslmoser

macrumors 6502a
Sep 18, 2011
696
669
Las Vegas, NV
The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.

Agreed. So is the argument that Apple is smart for targeting just consumers with flashy iOS tid bits. The only reason consumers use iOS devices is because of the things they can do on them. The only reason they can do those things is because developers (professionals) created all those apps. Developers can only create those apps on Mac os x with Xcode. Developers are less likely to create those apps if they have to use a system they don't like.

Professional users were also more likely to stay committed to the Mac before apple may it clear they no longer cared about them. Professional users kept Apple relevant when no one else did.

Consumers will buy what is cool and trendy. Trends can change very quickly.
 

ScottishCaptain

macrumors 6502a
Oct 4, 2008
871
474
I've got to be honest, my reaction to being commanded to "Keep that in mind" isn't positive but I'm going to do my best not to get in a dust up with you, particularly since the second half of your post seems to contradict the first half, and which I actually agree with....Unless you've quoted someone else there but forgotten the quote tags?

How did my statement contradict itself?

I'm saying that developers will always need power tools to create content for the appliance platforms. Lion is not targeted at power users, and is therefore a hinderance to most of us who need a platform to create things and not to hold our hands every step of the way (Versions is a great example of this- I use SVN and occasionally GIT for that stuff, and there is no option to turn it off. This worries me because a lot of applications seem to be taking advantage of it now and the last thing I need is Photoshop trying to dump a 200MB PSB file through Versions and clogging up my disk drive in the process).

Therefore, it is in the interest of some developers (who make great use of Expose, Spaces, don't need Versions, etc) to stay on 10.6.x. However Apple is doing their best to *force* everyone to upgrade, and that's what annoys me the most- that the next version of Xcode could be 10.7 only and they could simply say "Sorry, no app store submissions with the 4.(x-1) SDK!".

If you value your freedom to do what you want with your computer hardware, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc

SOPA is just the beginning of the stripping away of your rights to use a computer how you like.

I do value my freedom. That's why I don't live in the USA.

-SC
 

Gomff

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2009
802
1
How did my statement contradict itself?

I'm saying that developers will always need power tools to create content for the appliance platforms. Lion is not targeted at power users, and is therefore a hinderance to most of us who need a platform to create things and not to hold our hands every step of the way (Versions is a great example of this- I use SVN and occasionally GIT for that stuff, and there is no option to turn it off. This worries me because a lot of applications seem to be taking advantage of it now and the last thing I need is Photoshop trying to dump a 200MB PSB file through Versions and clogging up my disk drive in the process).

Therefore, it is in the interest of some developers (who make great use of Expose, Spaces, don't need Versions, etc) to stay on 10.6.x. However Apple is doing their best to *force* everyone to upgrade, and that's what annoys me the most- that the next version of Xcode could be 10.7 only and they could simply say "Sorry, no app store submissions with the 4.(x-1) SDK!".



I do value my freedom. That's why I don't live in the USA.

-SC

You seemed to contradict yourself in so far as you appeared to be advocating Lion for development of iOS apps, and yet disparaging it for hand-holding. On re-reading your post again I see you refer to OS X for application development rather than Lion specifically. I assumed incorrectly, something to which I'll happily admit.

I'm still using Snow Leopard whilst a Lion install sits unused on another disk partition for similar reasons, and I share quite a few of your concerns hence the reluctance to really get into some heated debate.

I don't live in the US either, but you know how the old expression goes, when America sneezes, Britain catches a cold. The ramifications of SOPA extend beyond the borders of the US, as do Spyware, rootkits etc.
 

Mackilroy

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2006
3,921
585
The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.
So is the usual "Lion sucks, it can do nothing right, it's riddled with bugs and everyone hates it."

Two sides to every coin.
 

Gomff

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2009
802
1
So is the usual "Lion sucks, it can do nothing right, it's riddled with bugs and everyone hates it."

Two sides to every coin.

Well, if we're dishing out clichés, there's no smoke without fire.

If the complaints against Lion were unfounded, wouldn't they have gone away by now?
 

Joos24

macrumors regular
Nov 20, 2011
107
0
Hephaestus,

The thing is, people will complain about others "Still whining about it 6 months later" as if it's your fault...
And you're complaining about the complainers. ;)

And that's the thing here......The criticism isn't coming from Windows users trying to get a rise out of Apple apologists (easy as that would be).....it's coming from loyal Apple (mostly pro) users who are having a genuine WTF scenario every time they try and crack on with Lion.


What? Do you have a crystal ball? You have absolutely no idea who is sitting behind their computers causing a stir about Lion, your post is nothing more than an assumption. In regards to "Pro Users", again, you have no idea what type of users are doing the complaining. You're assuming once again. :p. FYI, I've seen a handful of Windows users right on this forum saying they don't use Macs but tried out a friend's Mac running Lion and they hated it and were quite vocal on something they have very little experience using.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
I am behind the curve using, very happily for the most part, Macs which are used but still very useful.

I loved Tiger in two Macs that were my mainstay and in recent months got a new (used) Mac with Snow Leopard. I seem to have many issues with Snow Leopard like the OP does with Lion.

Mostly I can get around as well except sometimes the beach ball comes up during youtube and downloading videos. Also for some reason, even though I am wired into the same DSL router which worked great with the two computers with Tiger, Snow Leopard seems sluggish at times on the internet.

I think what some of what the OP has suggested, similar to my experiences, is just the learning curve. But each and every rendition of OS X is more ambitious than the one before it and that could possibly (at least in my case) lead somewhat to instability.

That being said, any issues I had with OS X on any cat version pale in comparison to the issues I had with either Windows ME or Windows Vista.
 

ScottishCaptain

macrumors 6502a
Oct 4, 2008
871
474
You seemed to contradict yourself in so far as you appeared to be advocating Lion for development of iOS apps, and yet disparaging it for hand-holding. On re-reading your post again I see you refer to OS X for application development rather than Lion specifically. I assumed incorrectly, something to which I'll happily admit.

Then I apologize for being ambiguous.

I was simply referring to development in general. My own personal source of income (and only source of income at that) stems primarily from iOS development, with the occasional Mac OS X application thrown in (usually server-side things for applications that require something sitting on the computer to talk to).

Being able to work productively and efficiently is what puts food on my table. Right now, 10.6.8 lets me do that. 10.7 does not, and things like Mission Clutter are in fact a bane to my workflow- enough so that I simply cannot waste the time dealing with it, because time is literally money.

What? Do you have a crystal ball? You have absolutely no idea who is sitting behind their computers causing a stir about Lion, your post is nothing more than an assumption. In regards to "Pro Users", again, you have no idea what type of users are doing the complaining. You're assuming once again. :p. FYI, I've seen a handful of Windows users right on this forum saying they don't use Macs but tried out a friend's Mac running Lion and they hated it and were quite vocal on something they have very little experience using.

I have a crystal ball. It's called "friends in the industry".

I can, from direct experience and knowledge, essentially file Lion users that I personally know into one of two groups:

1) Those who are doing non-professional tasks (checking Facebook, writing emails, surfing the internet, managing iTunes music)- who really don't care, and in fact, tend to enjoy everything Lion has to offer.

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

Apple already had to back peddle on FCP 7- being that it is now available again if you really need it. There will be severe repercussions to what is left of Apple's professional user base if they continue down the path they're heading with on Lion, and refuse to give users the bare minimum of choices that they should have on any computing platform.

Hell, I wouldn't have any problem at all with Apple offering a desktop, workstation, AND server OS. Sell the base package for $29 or whatever. Then let the users chose what package (if any) they want to tack on for additional features and control. Going even further on that idea, there's no reason why Mission Control and Expose need to be baked into the operating system itself. They could just as well have been apps purchasable through the App Store for $4.99. Let the user figure out which one they want.

-SC
 

thundersteele

macrumors 68030
Oct 19, 2011
2,984
9
Switzerland
2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

Just out of curiosity, which changes do prevent graphics designers from doing their work under Lion? I'm not a big fan of Mission control - I'm used to a 3x3 desktop layout with spaces - but other than that, I don't see any deal breakers.
 

Joos24

macrumors regular
Nov 20, 2011
107
0
Being able to work productively and efficiently is what puts food on my table. Right now, 10.6.8 lets me do that. 10.7 does not, and things like Mission Clutter are in fact a bane to my workflow- enough so that I simply cannot waste the time dealing with it, because time is literally money.
I'm one of the partners in our insurance agency. We have a mixture of Macs and Windows machines. The majority of Macs run Lion and we use them for a lot of creation for advertising our business and Lion's productivity tools have served us well. Also personally I've been on the Mac OS since 8.5 and Lion to me is the best version of OS X to date. Too many small things were missing in Snow Leopard and previous OS X versions that I wanted. Lion now has them. In case you cared I am a power user, not just a Facebook, email user. :rolleyes:

As far as your beef with Mission Control I wish you and others here would speak for yourself rather than acting like everything you hate about Lion is everybody else's problem as well especially if they are "professionals". Lion puts plenty of food on my table, those are your personal issues.

I have a crystal ball. It's called "friends in the industry".

I can, from direct experience and knowledge, essentially file Lion users that I personally know into one of two groups:

1) Those who are doing non-professional tasks (checking Facebook, writing emails, surfing the internet, managing iTunes music)- who really don't care, and in fact, tend to enjoy everything Lion has to offer.

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

Well those are the people in your life, not mine. Furthermore, IMO it's quite condescending of you to group people saying that Facebook lurkers, emailers and web surfers don't care about the OS and will accept anything that's given to them and that professionals are the ones that are smart enough to see what the real issues are. (Paraphrasing your words of course).
Posts like yours make me wonder if some of you guys here ever wonder what software Apple is using? They are "thee" power user doing video creation and editing. Do you think they are purposely screwing up their OS so that they can't even use it for the work they do, or maybe they are using Windows 7 secretly. :rolleyes:
 
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vitzr

macrumors 68030
Jul 28, 2011
2,765
3
California
I love how some people make forum accounts just to whine.

20 years of experience... lol
I find it exceedingly revealing about ones experience, or lack thereof, when they complain about a major point upgrade so soon in it's young life.

No matter the platform, it's expected that any major upgrade will take a few revs to sort out. There's simply no way to test for everything, until it's in the hands of the public.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
I have a crystal ball. It's called "friends in the industry".

I can, from direct experience and knowledge, essentially file Lion users that I personally know into one of two groups:

1) Those who are doing non-professional tasks (checking Facebook, writing emails, surfing the internet, managing iTunes music)- who really don't care, and in fact, tend to enjoy everything Lion has to offer.

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

A very narrow view of users. I don't fit in either. I'm 3 :

3) Those who are doing professional tasks (systems administration, hobby programming, scripting and some web design). I care about the changes in Lion, enough so to spend my money on it and have it boost my productivity with the nice changes it brought.

:rolleyes:

6 months later... still people feel the need to rehash the same complaints over and over. I see all the same people from that other thread are back, and they resurrected a thread to boot!
 

Gomff

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2009
802
1
6 months later... still people feel the need to rehash the same complaints over and over. I see all the same people from that other thread are back, and they resurrected a thread to boot!

So you joining in and coming out with the same old rebukes after 6 months is different because....?

----------

Then I apologize for being ambiguous.

I was simply referring to development in general. My own personal source of income (and only source of income at that) stems primarily from iOS development, with the occasional Mac OS X application thrown in (usually server-side things for applications that require something sitting on the computer to talk to).

Being able to work productively and efficiently is what puts food on my table. Right now, 10.6.8 lets me do that. 10.7 does not, and things like Mission Clutter are in fact a bane to my workflow- enough so that I simply cannot waste the time dealing with it, because time is literally money.


-SC

No need to apologize, it's all good. ;)

Personally speaking, I do 3D graphics and animation and for a while I could do it all in Snow Leopard. Then technology moved on but Apple didn't, leaving me with old GPU's and poor OpenGL support. With most projects it was possible to muddle through but Lion brought with it broken applications & plugins, instability, dumbed down workflow and no benefits.

Still what do we know? We'll never reach the dizzy heights of the insurance broker "power user".:rolleyes:

In case you hadn't noticed, expect to get rounded on by a couple of folks in particular here....I'm sure you'll be able to work out who I mean......One especially has a penchant for complaining to the mods.
 
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ADMProducer

macrumors regular
Mar 28, 2010
177
0
The only thing I'd like in Lion, as a power-user, is the ability to change the default setting in the tick box asking whether you'd like to restore the desktop next time you start up.

That is all.

Other than that, I am 100% happy with Lion. I do like the new mission control, it's great. Gestures are better than ever. Even the backwards scroll doesn't feel backwards anymore, it feels... natural.
 

Hephaestus

macrumors 6502
Apr 4, 2010
356
13
And you're complaining about the complainers. ;)




What? Do you have a crystal ball? You have absolutely no idea who is sitting behind their computers causing a stir about Lion, your post is nothing more than an assumption. In regards to "Pro Users", again, you have no idea what type of users are doing the complaining. You're assuming once again. :p. FYI, I've seen a handful of Windows users right on this forum saying they don't use Macs but tried out a friend's Mac running Lion and they hated it and were quite vocal on something they have very little experience using.

He's right. What are you suggesting? That people who don't even own Macs post criticisms just for the sake of it? Do you really think people care that much about a darn computer? You should get out more if that is your perception. When people are praising I bet you don't say that, just because its negative CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, you plug your ears.

Apple have screwed up big time with Lion, anyone with an attention to detail like Steve had knows that, hell I bet Steve thought so too. If he was still around in good health, I don't think the Lion we have today would look like this.

----------

Hephaestus,

Despite the grief you'll get from apologists in some quarters, you're not alone in your dismay :)

The thing is, people will complain about others "Still whining about it 6 months later" as if it's your fault, rather than a sign of how badly Apple has crossed some of their customers. And that's the thing here......The criticism isn't coming from Windows users trying to get a rise out of Apple apologists (easy as that would be).....it's coming from loyal Apple (mostly pro) users who are having a genuine WTF scenario every time they try and crack on with Lion. And the fact that we haven't got round those issues after 6 odd months is a measure of just how severely off piste Apple have gone this time....The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.

I'm hoping Apple will address the concerns you mentioned by making them optional, as well as a few more that others have mentioned, including me.

Nice to see I'm not alone!
 
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