Google Chairman Eric Schmidt: Competition Between Apple and Google is More Brutal Than Ever

[rGiskard]

I know what the word spank means thanks. Quality over quantity, market share does not mean better. Android is still a fragmented and buggy piece of junk. If they move to correct that I will change my opinion. However, Apple still has a distinct advantage when controlling both hardware and software.

You just said what I said in a different way.

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If 85% isn't enough for Android to become the dominant platform... how much more do they need?

Well that's the question, isn't it? I'd guess 85% would be enough if Android weren't so unstable. That's why I said Android L will be predictive of Android dominance - if Google can finally build a stable and responsive mobile OS, then in combination with the vast breadth of Android hardware they will rule the mobile space. Alternatively, if Android L piles on more features yet remains an buggy mess, developers aren't going to flock.

 

[Stella]

I've read it. The part where Android when from a Blackberry clone to an iOS clone while Schmidt was still on the Apple board was most illuminating. Thanks.

Schmidt did not attend board meetings relating to Phones…
http://www.geek.com/apple/google-ceo-has-to-step-out-of-some-apple-board-meetings-575685/
http://gawker.com/5015892/eric-schm...f-apple-boardroom-over-iphone-android-rivalry


Android phone mock ups was a reference design that advertised it ( Android OS ) could compete with the latest phones.

So, this went from Blackberry to Phone-ish mockup.

Anyway, all companies draw inspiration / copy elements from each other - Apple have done so with the iPhone - flat UI ( microsoft ), notifications, torch button etc etc.

 

[12vElectronics]

Have you ever seen him interview guests on 'Talks at Google'? He doesn't listen to what his guests say, doesn't appropriately respond to their statements, interrupts them in mid sentence to talk about himself and Google, and constantly hypes Google cr@p during interviews.

That kind of behavior is not a results of bad interview skills but is borne out of his personality.

I have not. But based on what everyone is saying in this thread, he sounds like a real prick.

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I don't care for him because he has built a company around selling my data. Steve hated him because used his position at Apple to snake away ideas for Android.. without ever admitting that Android is largely inspired by iOS. And everyone hates him because he looks like an evil villain.

I don't think anybody can deny that our current smartphones/tablets across the board are because of what Apple did in 2007 with the iPhone

 

[kdarling]

I don't care for him because he has built a company around selling my data.

Google doesn't sell our data. It sells anonymous ad slots based on our data. Quite different.

And Apple doesn't even try to collect my information and sell it to somebody else.

You must have never heard of iAds. You know, Apple's attempt to compete with Google in the ad business, using the information Apple collects about us from iTunes, app usage, location, etc.

What if I told you that 8 out of 10 smartphones sold today are running Android... but 5 out of those 8 will never buy any apps?

Suddenly... all that Android market share ain't lookin' so hot

Suddenly Android market share looks great.

-800 million out of a billion smartphones a year are Android.
-According to your figures, 300 million of those buy apps.
-200 million out of that billion are iOS.

Percentages are funny things. They rarely tell the real quantity story. For example, some people like to note that "only" about 1/3 of Samsung sales are top end phones.

But Samsung sells twice as many phones as Apple. So they sell at least 2/3 as many top end phones as Apple, who includes one or two year old models in their sales.

Not sure, maybe it's because he was on Apple's board of directors while being an executive at Google during the time the iPhone was in development.

There were at least three top execs who were cross-connected with Apple and Google at the time. Al Gore was and is still, an advisor to both companies. Art Levinson was on both boards at the time.

And of course, Steve Jobs invited Schmidt onto the Apple board halfway through iPhone development, when it became clear that Apple needed Google cooperation to add Search, Maps, cell tower location, YouTube conversions, etc... to help make the iPhone a success.

It probably didn't hurt that everyone knew Google had bought Android the year before, and no doubt Jobs thought he could get inside info on how Android was coming along.

Steve Jobs felt betrayed when Google, shortly after the announcement of the iPhone, began to copy iPhone features for Android.

Jobs used his influence on his ardent admirer Schmidt to force Android to hold back similar features for a long time. Eventually Google allowed the features anyway, and that's when Jobs publicly went ballistic.

Either it was a good act, or he actually naively believed that Apple had invented multitouch, etc.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

Google doesn't sell our data. It sells anonymous ad slots based on our data. Quite different.

Not really true. Advertising agencies can and do purchase the complete demographic profiles from Google of all the users who have in some way interacted with or been exposed to their ads, and use this information to evaluate and ad's success rate in an infinite number of different demographic categories, and to plan future ads targeting well defined demographic categories. It is hardly anonymous. Is scraping users emails, for example, searching for their interests, professions, etc. attaching that to their permanent and persistent user profile id, and then serving up that information to paying advertisers something you call anonymous?

You must have never heard of iAds. You know, Apple's attempt to compete with Google in the ad business, using the information Apple collects about us from iTunes, app usage, location, etc.

I think the main difference is that iAds doesn't use a permanent user identifier of any kind, and includes zero demographic information, unlike Google who sell and provide every detail about you and your life and your internet activities, basically everything but your social security number so that advertisers have all the tools they need for pinpoint accurate advertising.

The other major difference is that I as the user can turn off this access in every single Apple device under settings>privacy>advertising.

Why do you think iAds was so unsuccessful? None of the big ad players had any use for it. There was/is no way to reliably track how effective ads and ad campaigns were/are. iAds mainly exists to give developers who want to support their free apps in the App Store an alternative to Google. It was never meant to turn Apple's users into a product to sell to advertisers, which is Google's primary business model. It was never meant to compete with Google head on in the ad business.

I can tell you, I have never once seen an ad for a music artist that I purchased from iTunes 5 minutes previous. What I have had happen to me is going into look at F1 merchandise on the official F1 site and then going back to do a web search on Google and having a big banner ad showing off Red Bull Racing's latest line of apparel, or going into a Bathroom fixtures site and looking at bathtubs for the bathroom I am going to remodel, and then having ads for the exact same model of bathtub I looked at once show up on every website I visited for the next 6 months.

It is starting to piss me off, actually. So I made the move, abandoned Gmail Google Maps, and Google Search, and am seriously researching hosting my own email privately for me and my family on our Mac mini server at home that already serves as the media and photo hub of the household.

Email sucks though, not an easy thing to host, and then when you get it up and running properly, you have to get decent spam filters. If there is one thing Google is really great at, it is providing all these services for free that we all take for granted these days, and lulling their users/products into a nice complacent ignorant existence. A lot like herds of cattle or sheep...

 

[fallenjt]

I believe the most brutal competition was when Schmidt went back from the iPhone event in 2007 and overhauled entire Android program to change it to iOS like operating system with mult-touch support. Yup...he got no vision on Android until he saw Apple iPhone with that advance OS...Sure, Schmidt, you don't have to admit it, but deep down in your heart, you knew you copied or by another word "inspired by" Appple iOS.

 

[sha4000]

That's a point goes over most Apple fans heads. When there wasn't competition, iPhone 3/iOS2 users were begging for'cut, copy and paste' and MMS and being told we 'didn't need it.

When other smartphones hit the scene, Apple upped their game. The iPhone 4 was a quantum leap beacuse of the threat Apple suddenly had in the smartphone market.

Apple fans foolishly think 'they win' if Apple wins. You aren't Apple. (Even you, 'handful of shares owner guy' who's paid just as much in Apple markup as they've 'made' from their stock). You're a customer. And the only thing that keeps Apple making great products is fear you'll spend your money somewhere else. Fortunately for them, millions of their customers ignore slipping product quality and fiascos like today's 8.01 release and will defend Apple with the same blind faith and complex thought a small child does with their mother. ('You said something bad about mommy, you're mean!')

Sad but so true. I just don't get ppl, it's the herd mentality and it happens in ALL phases of life.

 

[Michael Scrip]

By your rough math, the number of people buying apps is, by my rough math about the same.

And I find the apps on both platforms to be about the same.

I know it's harder to code for and support Android because of so many differing hardware and OS version possibilities - but there's still money to be made there and just about all the major apps are on both platforms.

So if the number of people buying apps is "the same" on both platforms... then developers would be making "the same" amount of money on both platforms.

Are they?

The last figures I've seen show the iOS App Store making more money for developers... despite Google Play having more downloads.

And I've also seen it described like this: Android has twice as many users... but they spend half as much.

So I'm not seeing your theory of "the same" in either of those quotes.

 

[Oletros]

Not really true. Advertising agencies can and do purchase the complete demographic profiles from Google of all the users who have in some way interacted with or been exposed to their ads, and use this information to evaluate and ad's success rate in an infinite number of different demographic categories, and to plan future ads targeting well defined demographic categories. It is hardly anonymous. Is scraping users emails, for example, searching for their interests, professions, etc. attaching that to their permanent and persistent user profile id, and then serving up that information to paying advertisers something you call anonymous?

Ad agencies can buy just anonymized and aggregated data. So no, Google doesn't sell your data

I think the main difference is that iAds doesn't use a permanent user identifier of any kind, and includes zero demographic information, unlike Google who sell and provide every detail about you and your life and your internet activities, basically everything but your social security number so that advertisers have all the tools they need for pinpoint accurate advertising.

Second time you make the claim that Google sells your profile, can you give just one proof of that?

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that's my point ... why would jobs say "I don't want your money ... "? Unless an offer of money has been made? (Of course there's some other possibilities)

If I say, I won't want any money from you, just stop doing that doesn't means that you have offer me any money at all. It only means that I don't want any ****ing money from you

 

[Michael Scrip]

Percentages are funny things. They rarely tell the real quantity story.

Exactly!

And that's why I wish people would not be so reliant on quarterly market share percentages to try to prove their point about developers.

The iPhone only has 12% smartphone market share... which sounds horrible.

On the other hand... there are 400 million iPhones out in the world.

Which one of those would grab a developer's attention?

And like I said before... the iPhone has NEVER had a lot of market share... yet iPhone apps are a huge business. Some developers focus solely on iPhone apps.

It sounds to me like market share is NOT the be-all and end-all.

I've seen people in this very thread saying things like "Apple needs market share to draw sufficient developers to keep the platform vibrant and innovative"

Geez... haven't they been paying attention AT ALL over the years?

Apple has had NO PROBLEM getting developers, accessory makers, case makers, etc.... despite always having a small percentage of market share.

Once again... the iPhone having "not a lot of market share" hasn't scared away developers.

 

[iolinux333]

So if the number of people buying apps is "the same" on both platforms... then developers would be making "the same" amount of money on both platforms.

Are they?

The last figures I've seen show the iOS App Store making more money for developers... despite Google Play having more downloads.

And I've also seen it described like this: Android has twice as many users... but they spend half as much.

So I'm not seeing your theory of "the same" in either of those quotes.

I think you're right really-i think I've seen similar numbers, it doesn't matter too much though because there's still enough money to be made. And then once the app is already made for one platform-well then the design is done-and if you've ever written your own app from scratch you know that at that point all the important stuff is finished in your head - what's left is just the hard work of sitting down, getting your hands dirty, and getting the damn code written, regardless of language or platform. If the dev wants the extra money that is. At a certain low adoption point there isn't enough money to justify the PITA of coding and testing and supporting (Windows Phone) but Android is well past that.

 

[nsayer]

How can you guys talked like this about another human being whom you don't know and never met?

I understand you may not care for his company's business practices but to say things like this says more about you than him. It's disgraceful and you should be ashamed.

He is a director of his company. Therefore, it is naive to suggest that there is a separation between those business practices and his own ethical compass. If he doesn't have the power to curb Google, then who does? And when he says things out loud like, "I want Google to be as creepy as people will accept," then how can you be surprised that that causes rancor?

I don't have to ever have met Eric Schmidt to be able to form an opinion as to whether he has the douchebag nature or not.

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Exactly!

And that's why I wish people would not be so reliant on quarterly market share percentages to try to prove their point about developers.

The iPhone only has 12% smartphone market share... which sounds horrible.

In the U.S., Apple has a 41.9% share of the smartphone market: https://www.comscore.com/Insights/M...-2014-U.S.-Smartphone-Subscriber-Market-Share

That alone likely explains why the iOS App Store has so much more buzz than any other comparable equivalent.

 

[Michael Scrip]

In the U.S., Apple has a 41.9% share of the smartphone market: https://www.comscore.com/Insights/M...-2014-U.S.-Smartphone-Subscriber-Market-Share

That alone likely explains why the iOS App Store has so much more buzz than any other comparable equivalent.

Correct.

But when we talk about market share... we're usually talking about the worldwide numbers.

While the US market is huge... there are more iPhones sold outside the US.

A developer doesn't care where the user lives. They just want you to buy their app.

But my point was... Apple has always had low smartphone market share worldwide... but their App Store is still the most successful.

 

[Poisonivy326]

Geeze Eric Schmidt is basically the Google mascot nowadays. Larry Page makes all the decisions and has since he returned as CEO. Some of you guys really live in such a bubble -- if it doesn't happen at Apple it doesn't happen.

 

[McCool71]

You can't blame Schmidt though. No other company can build up hype and coverage like Apple.

It is quite funny how this spills over to reviews as well - in almost every review of large phones the last 2-3 years the size has been mentioned as a negative point. There was no end to how useless, large and impossible to handle those devices were. And of course you would look like a clown when using one to call someone.

In most the iPhone 6 plus reviews though the size is suddenly something that is great and very useful. This often comes from the exact same reviewers that earlier barely could say a single positive thing about the screen size of large phones.

Go figure.

 

[McCool71]

They can quote sales figures and features all they like but the fact remains that people don't queue round the block for the latest Android phones.

To be honest though, those queues are largely designed by Apple as promotional tools by artificially limiting the number of available phones in store the first day.

You can always stroll into an Apple store a couple of days after launch and pick up the newest phone. I don't believe for a second that a huge shipment 'unfortunately' misses the exact launch date by 24-48 hours every single time a new model arrives. It is not like they start actual manufacturing a few days before launch.

When you own a lot of stores yourself you can pull stunts like that, the complexity of arranging similar stuff is really not within reach for other manufacturers that have to rely several extra steps between themselves and the employees in each store.

That being said, I have had to wait to get my hands on the flagship models from other manufacturers several times - often a week or three - because they have been sold out. And those does not magically appear in large numbers in stores a day or two after the sold out launch day...

 

[kdarling]

And when he says things out loud like, "I want Google to be as creepy as people will accept," then how can you be surprised that that causes rancor?

Like other well known but mistaken "quotes" (e.g. "640K is enough"), the "creepy line" one has been taken out of context and lost its original intent.

Schmidt was being interviewed about how far technology will integrate with us in the future.

He commented that implanting devices, "crossed the creepy line" in his opinion, at least at the current time. He went on to say that he wanted Google to go up that line as far as helping us out, but not to cross it and freak anyone out.

His implication was that having a machine automatically guess - too well - what we're thinking, could be creepy to people.

(This is similar to the "uncanny valley" with robotics, where people are disturbed by something that looks or acts almost human, but is clearly not. Perhaps that's why Siri started with such an obviously robotic voice. Something more natural at first might've crossed a creepy line.)

It is quite funny how this spills over to reviews as well - in almost every review of large phones the last 2-3 years the size has been mentioned as a negative point. There was no end to how useless, large and impossible to handle those devices were. And of course you would look like a clown when using one to call someone.

In most the iPhone 6 plus reviews though the size is suddenly something that is great and very useful. This often comes from the exact same reviewers that earlier barely could say a single positive thing about the screen size of large phones.

There's an article that puts old Samsung and new Apple phablet articles by well known reviewers side by side, demonstrating exactly what you're talking about. It's pretty funny.

Phablet reviews before and after iPhone 6 Plus (Everyone got it wrong)

One of the few to acknowledge this obvious flip-flip was BGR:

Now that Apple has finally taken the wraps off the iPhone 6 and the iPhone 6 Plus, and Apple fans are going crazy with anticipation over the largest iPhones ever released, something needs to be said. And that something is, “Thank you, Samsung.” We got it wrong.

-BGR

 

[nsayer]

Correct.

But when we talk about market share... we're usually talking about the worldwide numbers.

While the US market is huge... there are more iPhones sold outside the US.

A developer doesn't care where the user lives. They just want you to buy their app.

But my point was... Apple has always had low smartphone market share worldwide... but their App Store is still the most successful.

But the U.S. is by far the most valuable market, generally speaking. I won't go so far as to say that the rest of the world doesn't matter, but it surely doesn't matter as much. By way of factual back-up, the U.S. GDP is more than double that of China, which holds the number 2 spot. That, surely, makes the U.S. market share for smartphones a major factor as to why the iOS app store ecosystem is so much more valuable than the others.

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Like other well known but mistaken "quotes" (e.g. "640K is enough"), the "creepy line" one has been taken out of context and lost its original intent.

Schmidt was being interviewed about how far technology will integrate with us in the future.

But that's not the only thing he's said that demonstrates his ethical compass is at odds not only with a notion of respecting and preserving privacy, but is, in fact, attuned to the idea that because people (presently) value privacy, they must be coerced, cajoled, bribed, tricked or in some other way deprived of it in a less than honest and transparent way. And that makes him a douchebag.

 

[kerrikins]

Google doesn't sell our data. It sells anonymous ad slots based on our data. Quite different.



You must have never heard of iAds. You know, Apple's attempt to compete with Google in the ad business, using the information Apple collects about us from iTunes, app usage, location, etc.

Apple's main focus has always been and remains their hardware, though, not ads. The fact that they've been content to just let iAds flounder quietly is evidence of that - it was a sidebar mostly because investors expected it of them. And I trust them a heck of a lot more with my data than I do Google, because they're not so obviously desperate to get their fingers into every single piece of data pie that's out there. Google is incredibly invested in knowing as much about me as possible, Apple is incredibly invested in selling me their stuff. I prefer the latter because if there's one thing I've learned it's that if I'm not the customer, I'm the product.

Google does great things but it does so with money made off of people's data. Unlike most, I find it creepy and invasive to have one company know so much about me, even as an anonymous data point, and I do my best to minimise that.

 

[Michael Scrip]

But the U.S. is by far the most valuable market, generally speaking. I won't go so far as to say that the rest of the world doesn't matter, but it surely doesn't matter as much. By way of factual back-up, the U.S. GDP is more than double that of China, which holds the number 2 spot. That, surely, makes the U.S. market share for smartphones a major factor as to why the iOS app store ecosystem is so much more valuable than the others.

Yes... I agree.

I was just explaining where I got the 12% market share number from.

Every 3 months we get reports like these... which is when people bash Apple for not having enough market share:

Worldwide Smartphone Shipments

You're right.... Apple has much higher numbers in the US... and I'd imagine there is a higher concentration of iOS developers in the US than anywhere else.

I would imagine that's one reason why Apple's App Store is relatively strong despite having a smaller worldwide footprint.

It's funny though... Android actually has more market share in the US... 52% to 42%

Yet Apple's App Store has always been stronger.

Once again... more market share doesn't always equal more app store revenue. It proves that you don't need the most market share to have a well-performing platform.