Google Claims a 'Hostile, Organized Campaign Against Android'

[voonyx]

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It's one of the joys (and pains) of the open platform. Android and iOS are completely different beasts when it comes to application distribution.

Google do have control over Market apps (remote wipe/uninstallation/DRM/authentication) but anything you create yourself or install externally is beyond their control (unless it was ripped from the Market and does feature Google authentication/DRM).

The lack of central control is the reason why the malware situations are different for each platform and if Google could remote kill third party apps, the malware situation would be completely within Google's control.

I'm capable and honest enough to support developers so the risk of me coming across anything bad is minimised and paradoxically, it's Googles lack of total control that makes me prefer the platform

Ditto, the reason I love android is because of the openness. The malware and all that does exist, sure, but if you're careful, you'd never be affected by it really. That's not to say all android users are careful, they're obviously not, but in my case I have no worries about getting malware on my phone, and I enjoy every part of it from creating apps, to theming, to cooking up my own custom ROMs (which admittedly suck haha) on my D1...

 

[aohus]

Why are you deflecting the subject and bringing up the fart app and ios approval process? Are you just randomly saying things?

Ok, iTunes is not all free. What's your point? Did you just feel like stating another random fact? Ok...we get it.

well thanks for finally being on point with me. we're on the same wavelength in this regard. No, that was the only statement I was making. It was just a clarification.

Here's another internet research assignment for you (which we all know you won't do). Find me one example of an app that wasn't available on the official Android Market that Google has blocked? You are now suggesting that if Google wanted to block the Amazon App Store, they can somehow block everyone who owns an android device from installing an apk, without disabling the unknown sources dialog?

Now...just to remind you, since you forget easily:

1) Find me where Google has officially endorsed the Amazon App Market
2) Find me where Google has blocked an app that was never available on the Official Android Market

I'll wait.

So you're saying that all those apps that they're offering at a cheaper price point, and the free apps they're giving away, they're doing it without the approval of Android marketplace ToS? Really? So Amazon is cheating out the thousands of Android developers that are supposed to get their fair share? Obviously some deal was made between the two so that Amazon can coexist with Android's Marketplace. Theres a lot of business rules that goes along with it for this to happen. What exactly were the terms? Nobody knows. Clearly, some deal was made for it run on Android platform. Google may be neutral/not happy with the idea, but they're allowing it. I'd consider that as an endorsement, as Google is trying hard to show that it is an open platform.

They can ban apps that are an 'unknown source' or not ON the Android Marketplace. That was my point all along.

 

[voonyx]

well thanks for finally being on point with me. we're on the same wavelength in this regard. No, that was the only statement I was making. It was just a clarification.



So you're saying that all those apps that they're offering at a cheaper price point, and the free apps they're giving away, they're doing it without the approval of Android marketplace ToS? Really? So Amazon is cheating out the thousands of Android developers that are supposed to get their fair share? Obviously some deal was made between the two so that Amazon can coexist with Android's Marketplace. Theres a lot of business rules that goes along with it for this to happen. What exactly were the terms? Nobody knows. Clearly, some deal was made for it run on Android platform. Google may be neutral/not happy with the idea, but they're allowing it. I'd consider that as an endorsement, as Google is trying hard to show that it is an open platform.

They can ban apps that are an 'unknown source' or not ON the Android Marketplace. That was my point all along.

Of course they are in line with the TOS of the Android marketplace. But you were saying that it was official and endorsed by Google and it's not. No way around it. It's not a Google product, Google has never said "hey check out our new official Amazon marketplace!", it's not available in Google's official App Market and you have to enable unknown sources to install it. There is nothing "official" or "endorsed" about the Amazon app store. The fart apps, and sexy Japanese women apps all fall within the TOS too...does that mean they are endorsed or official??

And your last sentence, I'm assuming is a typo if not, I really don't know what to say to you. They cannot (that's cannot) ban unknown apks from being installed unless they rewrite android source and remove that dialog completely or of course if a carrier decides to block it like ATT did. Again, Google absolutely 100% cannot block a third party apk that you get from a source other then the Android Market.

 

[ChazUK]

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It's one of the joys (and pains) of the open platform. Android and iOS are completely different beasts when it comes to application distribution.

Google do have control over Market apps (remote wipe/uninstallation/DRM/authentication) but anything you create yourself or install externally is beyond their control (unless it was ripped from the Market and does feature Google authentication/DRM).

The lack of central control is the reason why the malware situations are different for each platform and if Google could remote kill third party apps, the malware situation would be completely within Google's control.

I'm capable and honest enough to support developers so the risk of me coming across anything bad is minimised and paradoxically, it's Googles lack of total control that makes me prefer the platform

Ditto, the reason I love android is because of the openness. The malware and all that does exist, sure, but if you're careful, you'd never be affected by it really. That's not to say all android users are careful, they're obviously not, but in my case I have no worries about getting malware on my phone, and I enjoy every part of it from creating apps, to theming, to cooking up my own custom ROMs (which admittedly suck haha) on my D1...

Yup, people are their own worst enemy! Being an iPhone owner back in the day made me appreciate the hard work that developers put into their work. Back in my younger days using Symbian/WinMo I wasn't so honest embarrassingly.

If more people took that stance, malware stories would be less rife. Anyone who gets caught up with a malware issue because of piracy get very little sympathy from me.

With your D1, are you referring to the Original Droid? I would have loved to have tried the original Milestone but with Motorola's stupid bootloader policy, it wasn't to be. They got the Droid right but locking down the Milestone as they did ruined it.

Thankfully, the Nexus One came along and was all I needed!

 

[aohus]

Of course they are in line with the TOS of the Android marketplace. But you were saying that it was official and endorsed by Google and it's not. No way around it. It's not a Google product, Google has never said "hey check out our new official Amazon marketplace!", it's not available in Google's official App Market and you have to enable unknown sources to install it. There is nothing "official" or "endorsed" about the Amazon app store. The fart apps, and sexy Japanese women apps all fall within the TOS too...does that mean they are endorsed or official??

All those crappy apps? Heck yeah they're endorsed by Google. Its on Android Marketplace. Its not violating any ToS.

The fact that Google is allowing their applications to be put on a 3rd party entity like Amazon, some kind of agreement was made. I'd consider that as an endorsement. Google is not big on PR/advertisement campaigns. They don't do that with a lot of their products. How often do you see a Google commercial straight from Google themselves? Rarely. Thats not their priority.

And your last sentence, I'm assuming is a typo if not, I really don't know what to say to you. They cannot (that's cannot) ban unknown apks from being installed unless they rewrite android source and remove that dialog completely or of course if a carrier decides to block it like ATT did. Again, Google absolutely 100% cannot block a third party apk that you get from a source other then the Android Market.

Yes. There was some confusion on my part as I assumed you were implying that they cannot ban 'unknown sources' applications WITHIN Android Marketplace.

As for the Amazon/Android marketplace issue, you'd have to be on crack to think that Amazon surreptitiously is allowing users to buy Android apps on their own service, and have Google sit idly by without doing anything about it.

 

[voonyx]

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Yup, people are their own worst enemy! Being an iPhone owner back in the day made me appreciate the hard work that developers put into their work. Back in my younger days using Symbian/WinMo I wasn't so honest embarrassingly.

If more people took that stance, malware stories would be less rife. Anyone who gets caught up with a malware issue because of piracy get very little sympathy from me.

With your D1, are you referring to the Original Droid? I would have loved to have tried the original Milestone but with Motorola's stupid bootloader policy, it wasn't to be. They got the Droid right but locking down the Milestone as they did ruined it.

Thankfully, the Nexus One came along and was all I needed!

Yep the Original Droid. One of the best phones I've ever owned. I bought two other android phones after it, and still used it as my daily driver haha...I'm hoping the Bionic will finally make me retire it for good.

It's an amazing phone, even if its specs aren't as desirable as the phones now. You can literally learn something new every single day with that phone haha

All those crappy apps? Heck yeah they're endorsed by Google. Its on Android Marketplace. Its not violating any ToS.

The fact that Google is allowing their applications to be put on a 3rd party entity like Amazon, some kind of agreement was made. I'd consider that as an endorsement. Google is not big on PR/advertisement campaigns. They don't do that with a lot of their products. How often do you see a Google commercial straight from Google themselves? Rarely. Thats not their priority.




Yes. There was some confusion on my part as I assumed you were implying that they cannot ban 'unknown sources' applications WITHIN Android Marketplace.

As for the Amazon/Android marketplace issue, you'd have to be on crack to think that Amazon surreptitiously is allowing users to buy Android apps on their own service, and have Google sit idly by without doing anything about it.

Like I said maybe you're not familiar with the definition of the term endorse. Just because the app exists doesn't mean it's endorsed by Google. To suggest that google is actively endorsing the Japanese women and fart apps is laughable. Or maybe you just like arguing?

And no one is saying Amazon is rubbing their fingers together going "muhahah, Google will never find out!"...the point is, the Amazon App Store is not an official source for Android apps. Nor is it endorsed by Google. That doesn't mean Google has to buy a $1M ad on Superbowl sunday telling you to visit the Amazon app store, but youre telling me Google doesn't advertise its products? That people somehow know through telepathy when new Google products are created?

n·dorse/enˈdôrs/Verb
1. Declare one's public approval or support of.
2. Recommend (a product) in an advertisement

There's the definition. Show me where google declared public support of, or recommended the amazon app store...otherwise you're just arguing man...

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Yep the Original Droid. One of the best phones I've ever owned. I bought two other android phones after it, and still used it as my daily driver haha...I'm hoping the Bionic will finally make me retire it for good.

It's an amazing phone, even if its specs aren't as desirable as the phones now. You can literally learn something new every single day with that phone haha

I personally would say give up hope on the Bonic. It kind of become this Unicorn of phone. It should of been release around the time the Atrix was released. I like my Atrix but I do find it said the Bonic is still not out.

 

[aohus]

I personally would say give up hope on the Bonic. It kind of become this Unicorn of phone. It should of been release around the time the Atrix was released. I like my Atrix but I do find it said the Bonic is still not out.

why even wait on the Bionic when it was supposed to come out back in March timeframe.

I'd just wait for Tegra 3 (Kal-El) or go TI OMAP5 (comes out end of 2012 lol)

at this point i'm looking at iP5, as it looks like there will be a bigger screen, possibly non-glass exterior?

 

[voonyx]

I personally would say give up hope on the Bonic. It kind of become this Unicorn of phone. It should of been release around the time the Atrix was released. I like my Atrix but I do find it said the Bonic is still not out.

ha you know whats funny? they had some leak of verizon's roadmap which said the bionic is coming out on the 8th of September and I really didn't care. You're right, I've been waiting for it so long, it seems like whatever now. However, I guess I'll check it out, at least for the 14 day window and return it if its just overhyped (which it almost has to be considering it's like 9 months in the making...)

 

[aohus]

Like I said maybe you're not familiar with the definition of the term endorse. Just because the app exists doesn't mean it's endorsed by Google. To suggest that google is actively endorsing the Japanese women and fart apps is laughable. Or maybe you just like arguing?

And no one is saying Amazon is rubbing their fingers together going "muhahah, Google will never find out!"...the point is, the Amazon App Store is not an official source for Android apps. Nor is it endorsed by Google. That doesn't mean Google has to buy a $1M ad on Superbowl sunday telling you to visit the Amazon app store, but youre telling me Google doesn't advertise its products? That people somehow know through telepathy when new Google products are created?

n·dorse/enˈdôrs/Verb
1. Declare one's public approval or support of.
2. Recommend (a product) in an advertisement

There's the definition. Show me where google declared public support of, or recommended the amazon app store...otherwise you're just arguing man...

That wasn't my point whether or not its 'endorsed' or not. I am stating that its officially sanctioned, meaning, no rooting/jailbreaking is required to access the Amazon App Store. You just have to enable 'unknown resources' and go to a URL to download the apk. Thats a big difference. Amazon is legitimately being used (paying out developers as well as Google's piece of every paid app transaction). Read through the comments again. Its you who injected 'endorsed' all over the place when i first stated that the cydia app isn't officially endorsed by Apple. Well you know what, Amazon App is officially available on any non-rooted Android device. Cydia is not officially available on non-jailbroken iOS devices. Theres a difference.

 

[voonyx]

That wasn't my point whether or not its 'endorsed' or not. I am stating that its officially sanctioned, meaning, no rooting/jailbreaking is required to access the Amazon App Store. You just have to enable 'unknown resources' and go to a URL to download the apk. Thats a big difference. Amazon is legitimately being used (paying out developers as well as Google's piece of every paid app transaction). Read through the comments again. Its you who injected 'endorsed' all over the place when i first stated that the cydia app isn't officially endorsed by Apple. Well you know what, Amazon App is officially available on any non-rooted Android device. Cydia is not officially available on non-jailbroken iOS devices. Theres a difference.

This is like you bringing up that iTunes is not free then, you're just randomly saying things. If your point in saying "cydia is not endorsed" wasn't that Amazon is endorsed, then what was the point? You yourself said cydia doesn't count because it's not endorsed (or official...you used both of those words). And now (shockingly) you're changing your argument again to "that wasn't my point"....just admit you were wrong and move on, man. It's getting tired. At the very least, admit you didn't know the meanings of the words you were using, youd get more respect doing that then arguing over and over about something you were wrong about.

google does not endorse the amazon app store, nor is it an official source for android apps. If it was why can't I find Gmail, Maps, Google Voice, or any other official Google product in the Amazon app store? Why can't I find the Amazon App store in the Android market? Seriously...just stop. Are you going to now deny that you said "heck yeah Google endorses the crappy apps" too? Because you did say that, just two posts ago...but I guess that "wasn't your point", huh?

 

[DeathChill]

I am not sure you understand how it works. Developers have to sign up with Amazon and submit their apps for the Amazon App Store. Amazon doesn't take them from the Android Market. Amazon pays nothing to Google; they are a separate app store completely.

 

[MacNewsFix]

Best summation I've read to date:

If you have a monopoly business and generate monopoly profits and take those monopoly profits to another industry and *gave away* what your competitors (must) charge for, which led you to quickly capture the *dominant* market share, would you…

…whine like a b****?

Thanks for posting that one, Jim D!

 

[voonyx]

I am not sure you understand how it works. Developers have to sign up with Amazon and submit their apps for the Amazon App Store. Amazon doesn't take them from the Android Market. Amazon pays nothing to Google; they are a separate app store completely.

I am sure he doesn't understand how it works.

 

[aohus]

This is like you bringing up that iTunes is not free then, you're just randomly saying things. If your point in saying "cydia is not endorsed" wasn't that Amazon is endorsed, then what was the point? You yourself said cydia doesn't count because it's not endorsed (or official...you used both of those words). And now (shockingly) you're changing your argument again to "that wasn't my point"....just admit you were wrong and move on, man. It's getting tired. At the very least, admit you didn't know the meanings of the words you were using, youd get more respect doing that then arguing over and over about something you were wrong about.

google does not endorse the amazon app store, nor is it an official source for android apps. If it was why can't I find Gmail, Maps, Google Voice, or any other official Google product in the Amazon app store? Why can't I find the Amazon App store in the Android market? Seriously...just stop.

I'm not changing stories at all. You're twisting my words to fit it into your narrative.

You can't seem to grasp nuance. Everything is generalization for you, which makes it that much tougher to even engage in any kind of discussion with you.

My point wasn't whether or not it was 'endorsed' which you continue to say, even though thats NOT what I had first stated. Theres a difference between an app that works out of the box, and an app that requires rooting. Just face it, you know the difference but won't admit it, so you start going into semantics and trying to run circles over nothing.

Uh, why do those Google apps have to be on there? As I stated many times before, they are two UNIQUE app stores. Why do they have to be the same? Thats why its an Amazon App Store. Its officially sanctioned on Android platform because a) its available for download for any Android user out of the box, no rooting required, whereas with cydia you must jailbreak, what was once an illegal practice. obviously not the same, but you lack nuance to differentiate. simplifying things won't make your arguments valid. to the contrary actually b) developers are getting paid for the premium apps they're giving away for free.

It really is tiring to have to correct you every time I post. Most of your statements lack validity.

 

[voonyx]

Nobody has refuted my claim with EVIDENCE that two unique app stores exist on the same platform before Android OS.

Nobody has answered this. You know why? Because I'm right. I have yet to see someone refute my claim with evidence.

AFAIK, Android OS was the FIRST mobile OS that had two unique app stores coexisting with one another. Add on top of that, the Amazon App Store continues to give away premium apps for free EVERY DAY, 7 days a week.

I didn't change the definition of innovation at all. Its you who has.

Google introduced a new concept of two unique app stores co-existing with one another. No, jailbreaking with Cydia doesn't count, as it is not officially endorsed.



yeah, the iPhone has it finally, 3-4 YEARS after the fact? Whereas Google had this multi tasking down since Android 1.6, when you all were laughing at the UI.

Its funny when I see comments from Apple fanboys (not enthusiasts, theres a difference) tout new features for the upcoming iOS as revolutionary when they've been in existence with Android platform for years. Its cute though.

I'm not changing stories at all. You're twisting my words to fit it into your narrative.

You can't seem to grasp nuance. Everything is generalization for you, which makes it that much tougher to even engage in any kind of discussion with you.

My point wasn't whether or not it was 'endorsed' which you continue to say, even though thats NOT what I had first stated. Theres a difference between an app that works out of the box, and an app that requires rooting. Just face it, you know the difference but won't admit it, so you start going into semantics and trying to run circles over nothing.

Uh, why do those Google apps have to be on there? As I stated many times before, they are two UNIQUE app stores. Why do they have to be the same? Thats why its an Amazon App Store. Its officially sanctioned on Android platform because a) its available for download for any Android user out of the box, no rooting required, whereas with cydia you must jailbreak, what was once an illegal practice. obviously not the same, but you lack nuance to differentiate. simplifying things won't make your arguments valid. to the contrary actually b) developers are getting paid for the premium apps they're giving away for free.

It really is tiring to have to correct you every time I post. Most of your statements lack validity.

Care to try again?

 

[aohus]

Care to try again?

failed. miserably, as i stated that

That wasn't my point whether or not its 'endorsed' or not. I am stating that its officially sanctioned, meaning, no rooting/jailbreaking is required to access the Amazon App Store. You just have to enable 'unknown resources' and go to a URL to download the apk. Thats a big difference. Amazon is legitimately being used (paying out developers as well as Google's piece of every paid app transaction). Read through the comments again. Its you who injected 'endorsed' all over the place when i first stated that the cydia app isn't officially endorsed by Apple. Well you know what, Amazon App is officially available on any non-rooted Android device. Cydia is not officially available on non-jailbroken iOS devices. Theres a difference.

 

[KnightWRX]

LOL...I asked "if someone did something detrimental to Google, do you think they wouldn't sue?" and your reply (which you claimed "addressed this very point") is some rambling speculation about whether Google wanted to offer free licensing as part of joining the consortium. Where did you even get that from?

Or I saw right through your loaded question which was quite something else from what we were discussing and just decided to ignore it. It was pure flamebait and I'm not getting it that.

 

[SandynJosh]

Meanwhile back on topic:

Microsoft has responded to Google's whine about the hostile forces of evil organizing against it.


Not so fast, says Microsoft, which brought the feud to Twitter. There, Microsoft's communications chief, Frank Shaw, posted an image of an email from Google's general counsel, Kent Walker, declining to join Microsoft in the consortium to bid for the patents.

The email was sent to Microsoft's own general counsel, Brad Smith, who also chimed in. Smith wrote to his 2,000-plus Twitter followers that "Google says we bought Novell patents to keep them from Google. Really? We asked them to bid jointly with us. They said no."

Shaw offered a reason in another Twitter post: "Why? BECAUSE they (GOOGLE) wanted to buy something that they could use to assert against someone else."

 

[voonyx]

Or I saw right through your loaded question which was quite something else from what we were discussing and just decided to ignore it. It was pure flamebait and I'm not getting it that.

haha, almost like Google saw right through Microsoft and Apple's attempt to force them to join up and destroy humanity right? You're too smart for me KnightWRX ...it was a yes/no question, with a simple answer that you could have expaned upon. Rather you decided to ramble and speculate.

failed. miserably, as i stated that

dude seriously stop...you look like a fool. Go play with your android as you have a lot to learn about the whole OS and how it works in general. Hilarious that you suggested that Google gets a cut of apps sold on the Amazon App store, and that "heck yeah Google endorses crappy app"...you're sad.

 

[bear89103]

WOW... there's something to be said about the dogged persistence of aohus. I mean I've never seen someone that dodgy when it comes to actual points, that moves "goalposts" so often as astutely called out by BaldiMac, and that just will not face reality no matter how often they are smacked down on this forum.

I've been a reader of MacRumors and the forums for a long time, but never felt the desire to register and comment. But reading through this entire thread, post by post I have to say that there needs to be bravo given to aohus. You inspire clueless people all over the world. Your persistence is remarkable. Your ignorance is monumental.

WOW. I stand in awe. I am literally and seriously standing in awe of you right now. Amazing.

 

[voonyx]

Meanwhile back on topic:

Microsoft has responded to Google's whine about the hostile forces of evil organizing against it.


Not so fast, says Microsoft, which brought the feud to Twitter. There, Microsoft's communications chief, Frank Shaw, posted an image of an email from Google's general counsel, Kent Walker, declining to join Microsoft in the consortium to bid for the patents.

The email was sent to Microsoft's own general counsel, Brad Smith, who also chimed in. Smith wrote to his 2,000-plus Twitter followers that "Google says we bought Novell patents to keep them from Google. Really? We asked them to bid jointly with us. They said no."

Shaw offered a reason in another Twitter post: "Why? BECAUSE they (GOOGLE) wanted to buy something that they could use to assert against someone else."

Blasphemy! Google would have melted the patents down into fairy dust and spread it all over the world!

 

[aohus]

dude seriously stop...you look like a fool. Go play with your android as you have a lot to learn about the whole OS and how it works in general. Hilarious that you suggested that Google gets a cut of apps sold on the Amazon App store, and that "heck yeah Google endorses crappy app"...you're sad.

whats funny is that you never refuted this claim. it took another user to let me know that i was wrong. in essence, you bought into it.

 

[KnightWRX]

it was a yes/no question, with a simple answer that you could have expaned upon. Rather you decided to ramble and speculate.

It was a yes/no question which had nothing to do with what we were discussing. No OEM is harming Google.

My point was easy from the start : Google might have wanted more freedom with the patents than what was afforded by the consortium. There was many reasons to not join it, and to try to hold it against them is both odd and simple hate. People like to hate Google around here ever since Steve Jobs decided to do the same towards them.

 

[voonyx]

It was a yes/no question which had nothing to do with what we were discussing. No OEM is harming Google.

you said Google didn't join because they didn't want to end up being caught in litigation with one of their OEMs, I said are you saying Google wouldn't sue one of their OEMs...you rambled. Plain and simple. Exactly how was that not what we were discussing?

And of course there were many reasons they didn't join, but those were their reasons. To attack Microsoft and Apple as evil is stupid. They had the option to join, they declined and now they're whining. I don't hate Google, but they're wrong.

whats funny is that you never refuted this claim. it took another user to let me know that i was wrong. in essence, you bought into it.

haha, ok...and that makes it better somehow? You were wrong. I didn't realize we were having a competition and the fact that I'm not the one that called you out on that somehow invalidates how foolish you are.