Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
And I am saying that I am failing to see the irony or the hypocrisy of the situation.

Apple is committed to protecting your data, in places where they have control. Search is one area that is out of their jurisdiction. Whatever search engine you use, your user data will end up with that company at the end of the day. I suppose you could argue that Apple could take the moral high ground, turn down the money and maybe allow users the option of selecting their Safari search engine when setting up their phone.

Interesting enough, this turned up in my "similar threads" suggestion below.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-replace-google-as-ios-search-engine.1460953/

Steve abhorred Google Maps, and did contemplate replacing Google Search, but ultimately decided against it because be was aware of the backlash that would likely occur. Apple simply made the best out of the situation. They knew people would ultimately prefer Google Search anyways, so why not collect money while at it?

The irony is that they sold out to thier biggest competitor . Who on these forums gets accused the most of data mining, selling data etc....

And further more, I raised the irony that of all the people hating on Google on MR are being tracked via google analytics and Google advertising.

Look, it's the right business decision, like I said earlier , it's sleeping with the enemy.

Personally I want the best search results so very happy with Google, DuckDuckGo sucks for me.
 
If he said that, he was being disingenuous, thinking he could later claim that he meant not as a primary function. Because Apple is absolutely involved in data mining.

To clarify, data mining yes, but only in the aggregate, not personal, which is what is being discussed here. Just about every website on the planet collects data at the very least in the aggregate. It's unavoidable. TC had never said Apple doesn't do this and Apple's privacy policy is clear that Apple does do that. That isn't in dispute. What TC/Apple says is that it doesn't data mine personal information. For example, does not scan user's email, photos, or texts like other companies do.
 
Last edited:
To clarify, data mining yes, but only in the aggregate, not personal, which is what is being discussed here. Just about every website on the planet collects data at the very least in the aggregate. It's unavoidable. TC had never said Apple doesn't do this and Apple's privacy policy is clear that Apple does do that. That isn't in dispute. What TC/Apple says is that it doesn't data mine personal information. For example, does not scan user's email, photos, or texts like other companies do.

Can I ask what aggregate means to you?

Apple does not have to mine your emails, photos, or texts to gather personal data on you, each of us has a unique within apple, and every device we have bought is under that Id, going deeper, they know every app we have downloaded, music, movies etc etc.... I consider my client data to be personal information.
 
Can I ask what aggregate means to you?

Apple does not have to mine your emails, photos, or texts to gather personal data on you, each of us has a unique within apple, and every device we have bought is under that Id, going deeper, they know every app we have downloaded, music, movies etc etc.... I consider my client data to be personal information.

It doesn't matter how I define it -- we are discussing an objective contrast and comparison between TC/Apple's stated privacy policy and how it implements it, and also between its competitors. That's what's @ issue here, right?

TC/Apple condensed it in the TC letter posed on its website: "We believe in telling you up front exactly what’s going to happen to your personal information and asking for your permission before you share it with us."

This letter specifically states:

1. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers.
2. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud.
3. [W]e don’t read your email or your messages to get information to market to you.
4. iAd sticks to the same privacy policy that applies to every other Apple product. It doesn’t get data from Health and HomeKit, Maps, Siri, iMessage, your call history, or any iCloud service like Contacts or Mail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Max(IT)
I never said apple sold our data, I said they sold access to apple users in the form of Google being the default search engine. Apple is not selling our data, you data is safe in the phone, but each time the average user searches on thier apple device, Google is getting this data.

I think you will find that the average user actually wants Google to be the default search engine.

Sadly the stats prove you wrong, every browser has the ability to change the default search engine, and yet Google has a huge domination, which clearly shows users are not aware enough to change it, they don't care to change it, cause they WANT the best search results. Only reason the others have any impact is cause they either came bundled with an OS or affiliate deals have been done with broadband providers etc.

I'd say less than 1.5% in my opinion care enough to jump on say DuckDuckGo .... More users search piratebay I'd say.....

Feel free to find stats that prove users are jumping ship from Google cause they are so much more aware in the last 10 years....

Here is an example of the state of affairs , probably better sources, but this is presented nicely

http://theeword.co.uk/info/search_engine_market/

I was being very generous when I estimated it at 1.5%....... Your arguement that users are more aware and actively selecting an alternative, is not supported by stats , it's what you want to believe.

At times apple and Google are enemies that sleep together .....

I'm not defending Google for what they are and do, I just see the irony of the situation :)

who said most users are jumping ship ?
I did.... and that's what counts to me, regarding my privacy.
I don't need you to stop using Google services, if you dare.
I need ME to stop doing that.
 
It doesn't matter how I define it -- we are discussing an objective contrast and comparison between TC/Apple's stated privacy policy and how it implements it, and also between its competitors. That's what's @ issue here, right?

TC/Apple condensed it in the TC letter posed on its website: "We believe in telling you up front exactly what’s going to happen to your personal information and asking for your permission before you share it with us."

This letter specifically states:

1. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers.
2. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud.
3. [W]e don’t read your email or your messages to get information to market to you.
4. iAd sticks to the same privacy policy that applies to every other Apple product. It doesn’t get data from Health and HomeKit, Maps, Siri, iMessage, your call history, or any iCloud service like Contacts or Mail.

The problem is that they do use personal data I refered to above, that is linked to your Apple ID. People for some reason believe mails, photos, SMS etc are personal data, and think apple does not data mine it.

Is there a statement that apple does not mine the data connected to your Apple ID? Cause frankly that is the data that contains the good stuff....for a company.

Think appleid. Think of the wealth of personal data associated with that.
[doublepost=1453650719][/doublepost]
who said most users are jumping ship ?
I did.... and that's what counts to me, regarding my privacy.
I don't need you to stop using Google services, if you dare.
I need ME to stop doing that.

You tell me max, your keep going on about how easy it's to change the default search engine and how users are much more aware of privacy etc which I contradicted by the tiny % shown in stats.

True, if you value privacy it's about you, and the action your take.

Question, on your idevices, what steps are you taking to avoid being tracked on sites with google analytics or ad tags?
 
It doesn't matter how I define it -- we are discussing an objective contrast and comparison between TC/Apple's stated privacy policy and how it implements it, and also between its competitors. That's what's @ issue here, right?

What's at issue is the perception people have, because it's often quite mistaken. Apple counts on their customers and news reporters to be too naive and lazy to actually pay attention to what they really say. They know that a good sound bite overshadows the whole truth.

TC/Apple condensed it in the TC letter posed on its website: "We believe in telling you up front exactly what’s going to happen to your personal information and asking for your permission before you share it with us."

One of the less desirable traits of Steve Jobs that got instilled in Apple/Cook is the propensity to use misdirection to avoid telling the whole truth.

With Cook, same as with Jobs, always pay attention not at what he includes, but at what he leaves out. They know that the best way to hide information in plain sight, is to tell only a part of the truth, the part that they want people to remember.

This letter specifically states:
1. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers.

No need. Apple builds a nice profile based on the information they made us give for an iTunes account, along with our iTunes behavior, our location, and the types of devices we own and use.

In fact, Apple brags to potential iAds advertisers about how well they can target their own customers:

iads_blurb.png


2. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud.

A clever half-truth. Sure, they don't monetize info that YOU store on the phone or in iCloud, but they DO monetize the info that THEY store, such as our demographics, location, iTunes media searches, and app / media purchases.

Note also that in their Privacy and iCloud terms, Apple reserves the right to look at, censor, and share everything they know about us, or anything we put on their servers. (Many here will remember a couple of years ago when it came to light that Apple was scanning people's email for a banned phrase, and deleting said emails... not just sending them to a spam folder)

--

Another part of the same letter was this handwaving comment:

"Finally, I want to be absolutely clear that we have never worked with any government agency from any country to create a backdoor in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed access to our servers. And we never will."

Very cute misdirection. The fact is, Apple is part of PRISM, which is a program where the government can request... with a judge's approval... stored records of a person's account and actions.

However, PRISM doesn't use a backdoor nor does it require access to servers. That was an bad assumption on the part of today's typically poor reporting. But instead of simply saying that, Cook attempts to get credit for not doing something that no one was doing anyway, while omitting any mention of Apple's membership in a program that is about legally giving up private data.
 
Last edited:
You tell me max, your keep going on about how easy it's to change the default search engine and how users are much more aware of privacy etc which I contradicted by the tiny % shown in stats.

True, if you value privacy it's about you, and the action your take.

Question, on your idevices, what steps are you taking to avoid being tracked on sites with google analytics or ad tags?
Options on iDevices are limited compared to my Macs, for sure, but I'm using an adblocker and the privacy settings allowed by iOS (Do not track and Limit ad tracking).
Better than nothing.
As for the search engine, if you don't want to use DuckDuckGo (it need time to improve), Bing is a choice (I'd trust Microsoft over Google everyday).

What's at issue is the perception people have, because it's often quite mistaken. Apple counts on their customers and news reporters to be too naive and lazy to actually pay attention to what they really say. They know that a good sound bite overshadows the whole truth.



One of the less desirable traits of Steve Jobs that got instilled in Apple/Cook is the propensity to use misdirection to avoid telling the whole truth.

With Cook, same as with Jobs, always pay attention not at what he includes, but at what he leaves out. They know that the best way to hide information in plain sight, is to tell only a part of the truth, the part that they want people to remember.



No need. Apple builds a nice profile based on the information they made us give for an iTunes account, along with our iTunes behavior, our location, and the types of devices we own and use.

In fact, Apple brags to potential iAds advertisers about how well they can target their own customers:

View attachment 612295



A clever half-truth. Sure, they don't monetize info that YOU store on the phone or in iCloud, but they DO monetize the info that THEY store, such as our demographics, location, iTunes media searches, and app / media purchases.

Note also that in their Privacy and iCloud terms, Apple reserves the right to look at, censor, and share everything they know about us, or anything we put on their servers. (Many here will remember a couple of years ago when it came to light that Apple was scanning people's email for a banned phrase, and deleting said emails... not just sending them to a spam folder)

--

Another part of the same letter was this handwaving comment:

"Finally, I want to be absolutely clear that we have never worked with any government agency from any country to create a backdoor in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed access to our servers. And we never will."

Very cute misdirection. The fact is, Apple is part of PRISM, which is a program where the government can request... with a judge's approval... stored records of a person's account and actions.

However, PRISM doesn't use a backdoor nor does it require access to servers. That was an bad assumption on the part of today's typically poor reporting. But instead of simply saying that, Cook attempts to get credit for not doing something that no one was doing anyway, while omitting any mention of Apple's membership in a program that is about legally giving up private data.
What a biased post you made ...
You just twisted every single Apple statement to fulfill your agenda here.
No matter how hard you try, Apple isn't doing the same dirty things Google is doing every single day.

The whole question about PRISM is utterly ridiculous.
Apple released an official statement about the PRISM question a while ago:

Apple’s Commitment to Customer Privacy
June 16, 2013

Two weeks ago, when technology companies were accused of indiscriminately sharing customer data with government agencies, Apple issued a clear response: We first heard of the government’s “Prism” program when news organizations asked us about it on June 6. We do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers, and any government agency requesting customer content must get a court order.

Like several other companies, we have asked the U.S. government for permission to report how many requests we receive related to national security and how we handle them. We have been authorized to share some of that data, and we are providing it here in the interest of transparency.

From December 1, 2012 to May 31, 2013, Apple received between 4,000 and 5,000 requests from U.S. law enforcement for customer data. Between 9,000 and 10,000 accounts or devices were specified in those requests, which came from federal, state and local authorities and included both criminal investigations and national security matters. The most common form of request comes from police investigating robberies and other crimes, searching for missing children, trying to locate a patient with Alzheimer’s disease, or hoping to prevent a suicide.

Regardless of the circumstances, our Legal team conducts an evaluation of each request and, only if appropriate, we retrieve and deliver the narrowest possible set of information to the authorities. In fact, from time to time when we see inconsistencies or inaccuracies in a request, we will refuse to fulfill it.

Apple has always placed a priority on protecting our customers’ personal data, and we don’t collect or maintain a mountain of personal details about our customers in the first place. There are certain categories of information which we do not provide to law enforcement or any other group because we choose not to retain it.

For example, conversations which take place over iMessage and FaceTime are protected by end-to-end encryption so no one but the sender and receiver can see or read them. Apple cannot decrypt that data. Similarly, we do not store data related to customers’ location, Map searches or Siri requests in any identifiable form.

We will continue to work hard to strike the right balance between fulfilling our legal responsibilities and protecting our customers’ privacy as they expect and deserve.


But for sure we must trust a "kdarling" instead....
This has NOTHING to do with the matter discussed in the thread and it is just a poor attempt to put Apple in a bad light (as usual).
 
As long as I can continue using google for search I don't mind if it is the default or not. Shame that you can't change from Apple Maps to Google Maps in settings. Shame also that you have to download Google's rubbish youtube App. Apple's old one was far better.
 
As long as I can continue using google for search I don't mind if it is the default or not. Shame that you can't change from Apple Maps to Google Maps in settings. Shame also that you have to download Google's rubbish youtube App. Apple's old one was far better.
Google Maps .... another good way to give Google your personal info .... :rolleyes:
 
The problem is that they do use personal data I refered to above, that is linked to your Apple ID. People for some reason believe mails, photos, SMS etc are personal data, and think apple does not data mine it.

Is there a statement that apple does not mine the data connected to your Apple ID? Cause frankly that is the data that contains the good stuff....for a company.

Think appleid. Think of the wealth of personal data associated with that.

Again, no one is disputing Apple doesn't collect user data. But Apple's use of that data is not in conflict with its stated privacy policy AFAIK. If you proof of something specific that Apple is doing with user data that isn't inline with it's privacy policy then you have a potential Pulitzer or grounds for a $$ making class action lawsuit. Otherwise it's only conjecture on your part.

From Apple's privacy policy web page:

Our business model is very straightforward: We sell great products. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud. And we don’t read your email or your messages to get information to market to you. Our software and services are designed to make our devices better. Plain and simple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Max(IT)
Options on iDevices are limited compared to my Macs, for sure, but I'm using an adblocker and the privacy settings allowed by iOS (Do not track and Limit ad tracking).
Better than nothing.
As for the search engine, if you don't want to use DuckDuckGo (it need time to improve), Bing is a choice (I'd trust Microsoft over Google everyday).

Cheers, was wondering if there was something beyond those settings.
[doublepost=1453729614][/doublepost]
Again, no one is disputing Apple doesn't collect user data. But Apple's use of that data is not in conflict with its stated privacy policy AFAIK. If you proof of something specific that Apple is doing with user data that isn't inline with it's privacy policy then you have a potential Pulitzer or grounds for a $$ making class action lawsuit. Otherwise it's only conjecture on your part.

From Apple's privacy policy web page:

Our business model is very straightforward: We sell great products. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud. And we don’t read your email or your messages to get information to market to you. Our software and services are designed to make our devices better. Plain and simple.

cool. Though based on that statement, there are alot of grey areas, not directly mentioned in that paragraph.

Be interesting what how much data Apple uses to build insights into their customer base.
 
Weird thought - would Apple ever consider having their own search engine? I know that it's easy to use a well established company like Google for this task. But is it within reason for Apple to ever do something like this?
You mean like the cluster f*ck They attempted with maps... no thanks..
[doublepost=1453742221][/doublepost]
Why? There's nothing special about Google. I switched to Bing recently and actually prefer it.
[doublepost=1453433077][/doublepost]

*throws up*

No thanks. Most people don't load all that crap on their iPhones anyways.
Have you asked most people?
[doublepost=1453742331][/doublepost]
I sincerely hope you are joking.
Why? Don't you use YouTube , Gmail, maps? And assorted others. .
 
Again, no one is disputing Apple doesn't collect user data. But Apple's use of that data is not in conflict with its stated privacy policy AFAIK. If you proof of something specific that Apple is doing with user data that isn't inline with it's privacy policy then you have a potential Pulitzer or grounds for a $$ making class action lawsuit. Otherwise it's only conjecture on your part.

From Apple's privacy policy web page:

Our business model is very straightforward: We sell great products. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud. And we don’t read your email or your messages to get information to market to you. Our software and services are designed to make our devices better. Plain and simple.
Tell kdarling, he seem to know a different reality.....

Apple isn't a charity institution for sure, but they don't behave like Google...
 
Tell kdarling, he seem to know a different reality.....

I think you failed to read closely, and totally missed the point:

Cook likes to list things they don't do. Fine, but he never lists information that they are known to collect. That's being intentionally deceptive. He wrote:

"Our business model is very straightforward: We sell great products. We don’t build a profile based on your email content or web browsing habits to sell to advertisers. We don’t “monetize” the information you store on your iPhone or in iCloud. And we don’t read your email or your messages to get information to market to you. Our software and services are designed to make our devices better. Plain and simple."

A non-deceptive version of that might be:

"Our business model includes accepting billions from Google, so that Google could be first in line to monetize your searches, while we acted like our hands were clean. We ourselves build a profile on you from everything you do via iTunes/App Store registrations and purchases. We then monetize that information by selling anonymous ad slots, exactly the same as Google does. While we don't automatically scan your email to better customize our ad offerings or give you cool stuff like Google Now, we have been known to scan it for censorship reasons. We also reserve the right to disclose anything you have stored with us, if the government asks, or if we think you're doing something wrong. Just wanted to be open about it all, plain and simple."

--------------------------------------------------

Interesting excerpts from Apple's iCloud and Privacy terms:

--- Apple can disclose personal information:

"It may be necessary - by law, legal process, litigation, and/or requests from public and governmental authorities within or outside your country of residence - for Apple to disclose your personal information. We may also disclose information about you if we determine that for purposes of national security, law enforcement, or other issues of public importance, disclosure is necessary or appropriate."

"You acknowledge and agree that Apple may, without liability to you, access, use, preserve and/or disclose your Account information and Content to law enforcement authorities, government officials, and/or a third party, as Apple believes is reasonably necessary or appropriate, if legally required to do so or if Apple has a good faith belief that such access, use, disclosure, or preservation is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process or request; (b) enforce this Agreement, including investigation of any potential violation thereof; (c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or (d) protect the rights, property or safety of Apple, its users, a third party, or the public as required or permitted by law."

-- Apple can screen content on iCloud:

"Apple reserves the right at all times to determine whether Content is appropriate and in compliance with this Agreement, and may pre-screen, move, refuse, modify and/or remove Content at any time, without prior notice and in its sole discretion, if such Content is found to be in violation of this Agreement or is otherwise objectionable."

-- Apple tracks clicks from their emails to determine interests:

"In some of our email messages, we use a “click-through URL” linked to content on the Apple website. When customers click one of these URLs, they pass through a separate web server before arriving at the destination page on our website. We track this click-through data to help us determine interest in particular topics and measure the effectiveness of our customer communications. If you prefer not to be tracked in this way, you should not click text or graphic links in the email messages."

- Apple collects information and can share it with others:

"We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising."
...
"At times Apple may make certain personal information available to strategic partners that work with Apple to provide products and services, or that help Apple market to customers."
...
"Additionally, in the event of a reorganization, merger, or sale we may transfer any and all personal information we collect to the relevant third party."

Apple isn't a charity institution for sure, but they don't behave like Google...

Google is no angel, but their business model is well known, and they give excellent services to everyone in return for targeted ads. Like Apple, they do not sell personal information. Unlike Apple, Google offers a dashboard where you can at least see what targeted slots they have put you in, and even allows you to edit them.

One thing I would change about Google is that I think the GMail scanning should be optional, or at least you should be able to pay for a more private version without ads at all. That's where I agree with you that paying should be an option, same as it is here in MacRumors forums.
 
That's your personal biased interpretation of totally different words.
Apple officially said something, you totally twisted it.

Yes, you are right: Google's business model is well known: data mining offering services as a bait.
Keep loving them.
I don't.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.