Google Pixel Fold Design, Specs Leaked Ahead of Expected May 2023 Launch

[crsh1976]

In line with the comment that follow this, I'm sure when Apple's folded lands in the next 1-2 years you'll be like, "FOLDABLES MAN! They're awesome! Wow, it's like having an iPad Mini!"

Not quite, well not unless Apple develops a solution for a convincing use case, right now we're still in the territory of tech solutions that are hitting the market without solving any problem.

Apple has work to do, same with the AR/VR goggles rumour - none of this stuff improves my personal or professional routines so far.

 

[jmgregory1]

Folding a screen and putting constant stress on the joint isn't going to cause problems eventually, unless by eventually you mean around 200k folds which amounts to about 50+ folds/day for 10 years. If you are going to keep your phone for over 10 years, then yeah don't get a folding phone.

On average, Americans check their smartphone 96 times per day. And that 200-300k folds that device manufacturers tested, were done in a lab on a machine that didn’t put any off-angle stress on the hinge or subject the devices to dust, dirt, coins, sand, lint, drops, getting tossed around inside a bag, etc.

 

[d686546s]

I get your use case is unique for needing to carry something small that expands, but I would venture to guess that the coming AR glasses that let you see full desktop sized screens virtually anywhere you look will quickly eliminate the need to carry anything other than a small device along with a pair of glasses.

Apologies for singling you out here, as this may not really apply to you overall, but I find it perplexing that people who use a phone and a tablet cannot see a use case for a phone that transforms into a tablet, but are starstruck by the thought of having floating windows in space to interact with. I can see a potential for both, but I don't think I'd want to use AR glasses in the same way as I'd like to use a phone/tablet or a foldable that more or less covers both.

Not quite, well not unless Apple develops a solution for a convincing use case, right now we're still in the territory of tech solutions that are hitting the market without solving any problem.

I'm inclined to say that smartphone came to market without solving any pressing problems. The first iPhone was great, but you could surf the web, listen to music, watch shows and movies, answer emails and that was basically it. In retrospect that's a lot, but at the time it was pretty much a gimmick for most people who were used to flip phones and didn't really have a desire to watch movies or answer their emails. Or so at least they claimed very vocally.

Of course it all turned out very differently because the existence of the smartphone created most of the use cases we now take for granted. Before "there was an app for that," the thought of having an app for that seemed pretty ridiculous to most people.

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again, imagining a use case for a good implementation of a foldable doesn't actually require a lot of imagination. I agree the user interface needs to be improved, but that usually happens once people actually start using the thing -- again the initial iPhone, early Androids and the Blackberries and Symbian phones that came before them were not very polished compared to today. The price also needs to come down because as long as a good foldable costs almost twice as much as a regular flagship I don't see them moving a lot of units. The Samsung Flip has become almost affordable and you start seeing them around town more and more.

I think foldables are not for everyone and regular smartphones will stick around. There's space for AR and for wearables. Some people will always be sceptical about the longevity of these devices. I agree with all of that -- but no use case for a phone-sized device that can offer a second screen? I'd use it every day on my commute to read a book, or text with my wife while watching a show. I can't be alone in seeing this as something they'd like to be able to do.

 

[spinedoc77]

How on earth do you know this? Have you been testing a foldable screen for 10 years and folding the screen 50+ times per day, and in different climates? If so, share the data. If not, I prefer not to speculate on the longevity of an unproven and unnecessary screen technology.

Because Samsung tests them, putting them through a rigorous test on a machine specifically designed just to fold and unfold them hundreds of thousands of times. Anything in the future is just speculation, but with rigorous testing it's not difficult to extrapolate the longevity of most of these phones. Certainly there will be outliers, and as I've stated before it's only common sense to expect more moving parts to have increased wear and tear and possibly issues, but in 4 generations of Fold products there hasn't been anywhere near of an epidemic of broken folding screens, it's a non issue.

Personally I can vouch for a good 50+ openings a day for the Fold 2 and 3 over the course of 1-2 years, I've only had my Fold 4 for a few months. I just don't typically keep my phones for longer than a year.

 

[Alasdair_Scott]

I thought the production team on Westworld totally nailed the folding devices. No actual ‘fold’ rather separate screens that lock together.

Folding phones are the stuff of science fiction

Minority Report strikes again!

www.theverge.com

 

[spinedoc77]

What I noted about the fragility, is the folding screen itself. As I’ve stated previously, any mechanical hinge is going to have a failure at some point, especially compared to a non-folding device, but with high tolerance machining and polishing, the hardware portion of the hinge can very likely last a long time. The problem is really going to be the screen itself. You may not have had issues, but my point is that if folding screen phones hit the mainstream as far as volume goes, with hundreds of millions of units, the failure rate due to both material issues and foreign object damage will very likely be massive. Of course we won’t find out because as you note, the cost differential forces these devices to be niche products, used by people who can afford to get it fixed or replaced if broken and/or are treating them more carefully to keep them from getting damaged.

I get your use case is unique for needing to carry something small that expands, but I would venture to guess that the coming AR glasses that let you see full desktop sized screens virtually anywhere you look will quickly eliminate the need to carry anything other than a small device along with a pair of glasses.

Well you are just making predictions based off of no data at all. My predictions are based on 1) Samsung's rigorous testing which allows a good degree of extrapolation on the longevity and 2) 4 generations of Fold devices with about 10+ million sold and no sign of any epidemic of folding screens. Again I don't disagree with you that moving parts and flexible glass will be prone to more failure, but there is a huge difference between straight out FUD and the reality of how these screens are doing in the wild.

I also don't disagree with you on AR glasses, once they are at the minimum contact lenses so I don't have to wear anything on my face, including a light pair of glasses. Although I kind of don't get this, it's not ok to have a bulky folding phone, but it's ok to have a huge bulky AR headset? Have you seen the latest renders of what people think Apple's AR headset is going to look like? Who in their right mind would say that walking around in what are pretty much ski goggles is more comfortable than having a folding phone?! Even when AR headsets become light and thin glasses, for many who don't wear glasses that won't be enough. Which again goes back to my point, folding phones aren't the end all epitome of phone technology, they are a stop gap in the journey, but it's what we have available today.

 

[spinedoc77]

On average, Americans check their smartphone 96 times per day. And that 200-300k folds that device manufacturers tested, were done in a lab on a machine that didn’t put any off-angle stress on the hinge or subject the devices to dust, dirt, coins, sand, lint, drops, getting tossed around inside a bag, etc.

Folding phones have external screens which will function perfectly for quick checking of notifications without unfolding and the full size Fold 4 functions just fine as a full slab phone without opening. I think 50+ folds /day for 10 years is more than adequate for most users, or we can say 100+ folds/day for 5 years as in your case, still quite decent IMO. Samsung puts this right up on their website, if 100+ folds/day for 5 years doesn't make sense for a consumer, then it makes sense for them not to buy one, no argument there. That's also not to say that slab phones don't have a longevity to certain parts, it's just that it's not advertised and available to consumers.

 

[crsh1976]

I'm inclined to say that smartphone came to market without solving any pressing problems. The first iPhone was great, but you could surf the web, listen to music, watch shows and movies, answer emails and that was basically it. In retrospect that's a lot, but at the time it was pretty much a gimmick for most people who were used to flip phones and didn't really have a desire to watch movies or answer their emails. Or so at least they claimed very vocally.

Uh, that's a bit shortsighted - Apple didn't invent the smartphone, they certainly did an amazing job at perfecting something that was already out there in the business world (Blackberry anyone? and many others) and open up the market for others in terms of design, functionalities, app market and mobile advertising, etc.

What Apple created the consumer model version of the then business-centric mobile market, and oriented to towards media consumption, photo/video creation, gaming (more than basic cards or pong-like games anyway), etc. It then made the tablet market what it is, and TV/media boxes, etc.

Not trying to belittle Apple's part in this, they're the reference for many, many companies and customers. Rightfully so.

But back to foldables, there is no paradigm shift - not yet anyway. It's a new form, but it doesn't change or improve usage in any way - it's a very thick phone or a small crappy tablet, both of which are pullbacks to the olden days of crappier phone and tablet models.

 

[spinedoc77]

That's not how it works. They don't just die some point after 200k folds. It's a statistical normal distribution curve. There are early failures, a bulk of mid-life failures and then some exceptionally long ones. And it's plainly a lie that 200k is on the left side based on the fact that I've seen three broken ones this week on public transport already and it's Friday morning here.

The whole concept is actually entirely stupid from an engineering perspective. All these displays are complex laminates. When I say complex, the screens have literally billions of deposited parts on many layers and complex signal distribution paths. They also generate localised heat as a side effect of emitting light. To add mechanical stress to that, regardless of bend radius constraints etc, is simply statistically going to be considerably less reliable than gluing it to something solid.

If you bend things, eventually they break.

If you look at Apple, they are attempting to remove even mechanical buttons because they know that the durability of devices under normal use is ultimately constrained by mechanical part lifetime. Remember your unreliable 80s tape players with scratchy pots and switches that died - that has nearly been eliminated due to this product engineering discipline. That's some engineering I can actually get behind.

Edit: also from a usability perspective I've observed people using them and they aren't very practical. They are too large to hold with one hand reliably when unfolded, too small to put on your lap and they partially fold up if you press them too hard. It's just bananas.

They're shiny landfill that is all. And that's sad.

Of course that's not how it works, testing can only give one an approximation of longevity which can be extrapolated to the product. I don't think anyone is saying your phone will fold exactly 200,000 times then fail. In real life some phones will fail before 200k, and some phones after 200k. This is only common sense and begs why bring up the obvious, other than the usual FUD I see, I'd much rather see hard data of Fold phones failing en masse. Of course since Fold phones are not failing en masse there is no data, no epidemic.

With that said, as I've said before, I don't disagree that the physical properties of hinges and bending glass won't be prone to more failure, that's pretty much a given. But what's acceptable failure? That's up to each individual consumer to decide, and with Samsung's testing and their website publishing a lifetime of around 200k folds consumers do have at least a tested number to extrapolate longevity and base their purchasing decision on. At 50+ folds/day (again extrapolated from the testing) for 10 years, I'd say it's a pretty good deal. But then again I don't keep my phones for longer than 1-2 years, I can certainly see it as an issue if someone wanted to keep their phone for 7-10 years.

On practicality again you are espousing personal use cases, anecdotally I could say that using my Fold is more practical than my 13 pro max. Due to the narrower form factor it fits much better into my hand and pocket, and is much easier to type and reach things one handed. Two handed use has the same exact caveats using a small tablet would have so those usability issues I don't understand. Mine also doesn't fold if I press too hard, the amount of force to fold is quite significant. I get that a folding phone doesn't suit your use case scenario, absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just irks me when people say inane stuff like the technology is "garbage" or "shiny landfill" because it doesn't suit THEIR use case scenario. It's kind of a one sided way to view the world.

 

[spinedoc77]

Not quite, well not unless Apple develops a solution for a convincing use case, right now we're still in the territory of tech solutions that are hitting the market without solving any problem.

Apple has work to do, same with the AR/VR goggles rumour - none of this stuff improves my personal or professional routines so far.

Ahh the solution in search of a problem declaration. It's crazy that this is such a difficult concept to grasp, I think I'm just going to stop using words and hope that pictures are enough for some. See if you can figure out which of the following images doesn't mix well with the other.

 

[spinedoc77]

But back to foldables, there is no paradigm shift - not yet anyway. It's a new form, but it doesn't change or improve usage in any way - it's a very thick phone or a small crappy tablet, both of which are pullbacks to the olden days of crappier phone and tablet models.

Of course it changes and improves usage, simply in the fact that you can carry a tablet sized screen that fits into your front pocket. The best tablet is the tablet you have, and that means either figuring out how to carry one around in a bag, cargo pants, squeezed between your back and pants, always taking up one hand, or having a foldable in a front pocket. You can say it's a small crappy tablet, but then so is the iPad mini with similar screen dimensions, which is worse in my personal use case scenario because I have nowhere to carry one and would just leave it at home. The improved portability IS the improved usage. In the same vein a laptop has improved usage over a desktop mainly because it is portable, but in essence it can be described as a "crappy" desktop because it has a smaller screen, a less usable keyboard, and less potent hardware.

I'm just stunningly baffled by the inability to grasp this functionality. I get that today's Fold phones aren't for everyone for varying reasons, whether it's usability, reliability, or whatever many continue to confound those personal use cases with a folding phone actually having a use case scenario for many of us.

 

[darngooddesign]

On average, Americans check their smartphone 96 times per day. And that 200-300k folds that device manufacturers tested, were done in a lab on a machine that didn’t put any off-angle stress on the hinge or subject the devices to dust, dirt, coins, sand, lint, drops, getting tossed around inside a bag, etc.

Counterpoint. All folding phones, like this Google one, have a full screen which is visible while folded so there is no reason to unfold the phone just to check it. I'm sure these phones are subjected to different kinds of testing on different machines; there is no way that the only durability testing machine is the fold/unfold one.

 

[d686546s]

Uh, that's a bit shortsighted - Apple didn't invent the smartphone, they certainly did an amazing job at perfecting something that was already out there in the business world (Blackberry anyone? and many others) and open up the market for others in terms of design, functionalities, app market and mobile advertising, etc.

What Apple created the consumer model version of the then business-centric mobile market, and oriented to towards media consumption, photo/video creation, gaming (more than basic cards or pong-like games anyway), etc. It then made the tablet market what it is, and TV/media boxes, etc.

I didn't say they did, although I can see how what I wrote can be read that way.

What I meant was -- and what you're basically saying in your second paragraph -- was that the initial generation of the modern smartphone was not much better at anything than its predecessors, but the opportunities that a bigger touchscreen offers were quickly seized.

The BlackBerry was really good at its intended purpose of sending and receiving emails, but it couldn't really do much else. People had also been emailing and surfing the web on their Windows CE and Symbian machines -- and some may have even watched media on the larger touch screen devices that kept popping up around that time.

The point is: there wasn't really a pressing use case for most of it. Business users were quite satisfied with their BlackBerries and it took quite some time until iOS and Android gained a foothold in that market. I can't remember talking to a single person in the mid-00s who had a burning desire to watch YouTube on their phone because the tech wasn't there. Banking on your phone mostly meant calling people etc etc.

Apple wasn't first, but Apple brought the conversation mainstream. I remember it vividly: the screen is so big and fragile it'll surely break in no time, it's super inconvenient to type on glass rather than buttons, who'd want a device with a battery that barely lasts a day and so on and so forth. We've been there and we're there again.

None of the issues preventing people from adopting foldables have anything to do with there being no use case. Get these things into the hands of people and I guarantee you there's going to be several quickly, in fact most people who've actually tried them say that.

 

[crsh1976]

Ahh the solution in search of a problem declaration. It's crazy that this is such a difficult concept to grasp, I think I'm just going to stop using words and hope that pictures are enough for some. See if you can figure out which of the following images don't mix well with the other.

Sounds you're sold on the thing before it's even announced, I can't say anything of any value to you then.

 

[The Game 161]

Of course it changes and improves usage, simply in the fact that you can carry a tablet sized screen that fits into your front pocket. The best tablet is the tablet you have, and that means either figuring out how to carry one around in a bag, cargo pants, squeezed between your back and pants, always taking up one hand, or having a foldable in a front pocket. You can say it's a small crappy tablet, but then so is the iPad mini with similar screen dimensions, which is worse in my personal use case scenario because I have nowhere to carry one and would just leave it at home. The improved portability IS the improved usage. In the same vein a laptop has improved usage over a desktop mainly because it is portable, but in essence it can be described as a "crappy" desktop because it has a smaller screen, a less usable keyboard, and less potent hardware.

I'm just stunningly baffled by the inability to grasp this functionality. I get that today's Fold phones aren't for everyone for varying reasons, whether it's usability, reliability, or whatever many continue to confound those personal use cases with a folding phone actually having a use case scenario for many of us.

Issue is too many people have their apple glasses on simply because apple haven't brought this to market. Many are simply uneducated when it comes to foldables so simply don't see the worth. They aren't perfect but it'd pushing through innovation in technology and should be praised

What you can do on a foldable is simply unmatched which other phones simply can't do. Granted its not perfect in all areas but can be a phone/tablet replacement for many

I find it funny people talk about long term durability when many people and those who mention it keep phones for 2-5 years tops

 

[_Spinn_]

I’m still no sold on foldable phones because of the crease and concerns over durability. If I had to get one right now I thing the Surface Duo has the best approach with 2 screens joined by a hinge.

 

[icwhatudidthere]

Of course it changes and improves usage, simply in the fact that you can carry a tablet sized screen that fits into your front pocket. The best tablet is the tablet you have, and that means either figuring out how to carry one around in a bag, cargo pants, squeezed between your back and pants, always taking up one hand, or having a foldable in a front pocket. You can say it's a small crappy tablet, but then so is the iPad mini with similar screen dimensions, which is worse in my personal use case scenario because I have nowhere to carry one and would just leave it at home. The improved portability IS the improved usage. In the same vein a laptop has improved usage over a desktop mainly because it is portable, but in essence it can be described as a "crappy" desktop because it has a smaller screen, a less usable keyboard, and less potent hardware.

I'm just stunningly baffled by the inability to grasp this functionality. I get that today's Fold phones aren't for everyone for varying reasons, whether it's usability, reliability, or whatever many continue to confound those personal use cases with a folding phone actually having a use case scenario for many of us.

Yes, this is exactly what I've found with my Fold 4. It makes things possible that were simply impractical even on the large screen of the iPhone 12 Pro Max. Things like viewing and editing documents and PDFs are much easier with the Fold 4. The typical phone aspect ratio limits a document's width. If you switch to landscape, now you're limited in height. In either case, you end up zooming in or out and having to scroll a lot. It's usable in a pinch but not very practical.

An even worse use case is spreadsheet editing on a typical phone. In portrait, trying to edit a spreadsheet will show you maybe 3-4 columns if you're lucky and you're forced to scroll horizontally for most spreadsheets. In landscape, you can probably see a usable number of columns but start typing and you're limited to a handful of rows.

Even more day-to-day tasks like viewing images on a webpage are a better experience on the Fold 4. A practical example: I'm currently shopping for a car and the dealer sent me images of some of the options. It's a lot easier to see details without having to zoom in and then scroll around. He then sent a price list of options and I could easily open up a popup calculator and have the options list in the background making it really easy price out various configurations.

 

[spinedoc77]

Sounds you're sold on the thing before it's even announced, I can't say anything of any value to you then.

I'm not necessarily sold on Google's implementation, I was just pointing out that there is in fact a problem that folding phones are helping to solve. Whether they are everyone's cup of tea is one thing, but they do solve problems for many consumers.

 

[darngooddesign]

Sounds you're sold on the thing before it's even announced, I can't say anything of any value to you then.

This type of folding phone has been available for years so it's not exactly a vague concept. That's like telling someone in August that it looks like they are sold on the AirPods Pro2.

 

[Dadcelo]

Convo here is always the same no matter how much time passes…

Can’t wait to see Apple’s foldable soon!

 

[Danfango]

I get that a folding phone doesn't suit your use case scenario, absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just irks me when people say inane stuff like the technology is "garbage" or "shiny landfill" because it doesn't suit THEIR use case scenario. It's kind of a one sided way to view the world.

It's not related to my use case.

It's simply unethical to intentionally build a lower durability device at this price point and market it as superior.

 

[darngooddesign]

It's not related to my use case.

It's simply unethical to intentionally build a lower durability device at this price point and market it as superior.

Would you say that the superior iPhone 14's glass back is more or less durable than the metal backed iPhones or plastic 5C?

 

[ShawnTXDFW]

I know I’m not the only one not into ‘foldable’ or ‘flip’ phones here. They can keep them. Flip phones have been gone a long time and Samsung has brought them back. They are ugly AF if you ask me. I know everyone has their own opinions but I just don’t see the market being there. Just like ‘RCS’ messaging that Google is trying to push Apple’s way but they don’t have any interest. And I think the same thing applies for these phones. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Danfango]

Would you say that the superior iPhone 14's glass back is more or less durable than the metal backed iPhones or plastic 5C?

Definitely more durable. The aluminium chassis used to deform permanently when impacted. The glass is elastic. Case in point my ex wife dropped her 6s back in the day, in a case, and popped the screen. They couldn’t fit a new screen because the corner of the chassis was actually pushed in.

I’ve dropped my 13 pro tens of times. Looks like it’s new. No damage.

 

[darngooddesign]

Definitely more durable. The aluminium chassis used to deform permanently when impacted. The glass is elastic. Case in point my ex wife dropped her 6s back in the day, in a case, and popped the screen. They couldn’t fit a new screen because the corner of the chassis was actually pushed in.

I’ve dropped my 13 pro tens of times. Looks like it’s new. No damage.

Counterpoint. I never shattered the back of an aluminum phone, but have shattered the back of a glass phone due to a drop without a case.