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Clearly Microsoft and Apple are different. I have been watching just how "different" Apple has been with iPhoneOS and surrounding ecosystem over the last 3 years, and I don't like it one bit. Apple's desire to have complete 100% control over iPhone ecosystem.. including the application content and the types of applications and services that developers can put out..

Isn't it sad that in the post-iPhone world Apple has become "Big Brother", and if the famous 1984 Apple TV commercial were made now it would be Steve Jobs' face on the screen the lady chucks the hammer at?

"Think different" has come full circle to mean "think control."

Your whole post was excellent.
 
Microsoft should back HTC as well. Their smartphones are the only reason that windows mobile still alive

Um, why? Microsoft has their own multitouch etc. patents. Why would they join in? Its better for MS if Android fails, or at least can't compete with them. Or does everyone forget the threats Balmer has made to sue companies using linux?! They'd love nothing more than for another linux variant e.g android to fizzle out under patent violations, just like they would linux, or at least get revenue from licensing (novel patent licensing etc.)... I don't see anything microsoft gains from helping google. For ms google is the freaking devil, apple is just an annoying competitor at worst and a potential partner by comparison...
 
Clearly Microsoft and Apple are different. I have been watching just how "different" Apple has been with iPhoneOS and surrounding ecosystem over the last 3 years, and I don't like it one bit. Apple's desire to have complete 100% control over iPhone ecosystem.. including the application content and the types of applications and services that developers can put out.. Well, that goes too far in my book. As a consumer, I just don't want to be a part of that.. I do not need a control freak corporation with a control freak CEO tell me what I can or can't do with the mobile devices that I own. So I will happily continue using Apple's MacOS based products (as long as MacOS remains open), but I am done with iPhoneOS based products.

Yet this model has not only been the most successful of its kind, the envy of the rest of the industry, it's also the most consumer-centric model. People actually *like* Apple's "walled garden" approach. Developers are flocking to it, major players in the industry have gotten behind it (and gotten quite a profit from it), and publishers seem to like it as well.

If you're going to have an opinion, have it, but when it's clearly separate from reality, then acknowledge that as well. This "tight control" that Apple exercises is and has been the cornerstone of their entire operation for years now. It's just being applied to more and more products as Apple branches out.

The App Store is wildly successful. The "Apple Way" has changed the mobile landscape, consumers and developers alike can't get enough of it.

As long as the products are great and we have a good time with them - with something in it for consumers and developers alike, Apple's CEO can be as much of a "control freak" as he likes. In fact, given the User Experience of Apple products, I fully support his "control freak" behaviour. It works like a charm. If consumers and developers don't like it, there are other choices and they can leave. Not many have left. If anything, more are joining the ranks, either developing for Apple devices or opening up their wallets to buy them. Apple is the runaway success story of or generation, bar none. It didn't happen by accident.

A company that is selling more of everything, and breaking their own records quarter after quarter (in a recession!) is clearly doing something right, especially in the presence of lower-cost alternatives that are being promoted heavily.

Absolutely, vote with your wallet. Just don't moan around here when Apple yet again posts record sales for nearly all of its products for another successive quarter.

As for 1984 . . . Ballmer's face would fit perfectly on the screen, even with such a bulbous head. Over 90% of the world's PCs run some version Winblows (often one of the more awful ones) on generic boxes. And MS doesn't care what fly-by-night box-assmbler takes it. How very IBM.

The only "Big Brother" here is your government. They are a far greater cause for concern than a tech company. And last I checked, most of that government is powered by Wintel. Enjoy.

Speaking of which, here's the latest from "Big Brother" Microsoft:

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscent...rney_suggests_net_tax_to_clean_computers.html

Microsoft's Charney Suggests 'Net Tax to Clean Computers

"I actually think the health care model ... might be an interesting way to think about the problem," Charney said. With medical diseases, there are education programs, but there are also social programs to inspect people and quarantine the sick.

This model could work to fight computer viruses too, he said. When a computer user allows malware to run on his computer, "you're not just accepting it for yourself, you're contaminating everyone around you," he said.

The idea that Internet service providers might somehow step up in the fight against malware is not new. The problem, however, is cost.

Customer calls already eat into service provider profits. Adding quarantine and malware-fixing costs to that would be prohibitive, said Danny McPherson, chief research officer with Arbor Networks, via instant message. "They have no incentive to do anything today."

So who would foot the bill? "Maybe markets will make it work," Charney said. But an Internet usage tax might be the way to go. "You could say it's a public safety issue and do it with general taxation," he said.

According to Microsoft, there are 3.8 million infected botnet computers worldwide, 1 million of which are in the U.S. They are used to steal sensitive information and send spam, and were a launching point for 190,000 distributed denial-of-service attacks in 2008.
 
This occurred to me, Apple and Google were still getting along, even after the Android announcement. It wasn't until the FCC came down and said, "You're competitors, you can't be on the same boards!"

Do you ever wonder if these two companies are just trying to please the government? :D
 
I hope apple doesn't win. I was reading in the Daily Mail that one of the arguments Jobs has is, and i quote: “unlocking a device by performing gestures on an unlock image” which seems to cover like every touchscreen phone ever.’

Apple didn't invent touch screen, it did however forward the progression of touchscreens with some clever ways to use it, but come on, this kind of action by apple is going strangle the competition that makes better gadget for us. It'll be bad if the only company that is allowed to work on touchscreen is apple, as we know what they're like at holding back on things.

Oh, and if you look at the article on the DM website Mr Jobs is looking more and more like an evil tyrant!
 
I hope apple doesn't win. I was reading in the Daily Mail that one of the arguments Jobs has is, and i quote: “unlocking a device by performing gestures on an unlock image” which seems to cover like every touchscreen phone ever.’

Apple didn't invent touch screen, it did however forward the progression of touchscreens with some clever ways to use it, but come on, this kind of action by apple is going strangle the competition that makes better gadget for us. It'll be bad if the only company that is allowed to work on touchscreen is apple, as we know what they're like at holding back on things.

Oh, and if you look at the article on the DM website Mr Jobs is looking more and more like an evil tyrant!

At first I thought they were going against cross patent agreements, but now it's pretty obvious this is just a proxy attack against Android in general. But, banning the sale of HTC phones in the US? I don't think so Tim.:p

Google will back HTC in case **** gets too deep.

In any case, I've been in several forums and blogs, and it looks people don't really agree with Apple with this move. Will see what happens, ought be fun.
 
At first I thought they were going against cross patent agreements, but now it's pretty obvious this is just a proxy attack against Android in general. But, banning the sale of HTC phones in the US? I don't think so Tim.:p

Google will back HTC in case **** gets too deep.

In any case, I've been in several forums and blogs, and it looks people don't really agree with Apple with this move. Will see what happens, ought be fun.

Jobs doesn't care. He's interested in protecting Apple's intellectual property, judging by the scathing reply he sent in response to my son in law's email protesting Apple's lawsuit. (Jobs or one of his minions who answer the sjobs email at Apple).
 
I hope apple doesn't win. I was reading in the Daily Mail that one of the arguments Jobs has is, and i quote: “unlocking a device by performing gestures on an unlock image” which seems to cover like every touchscreen phone ever.’

Can you name a single touch screen device where you unlocked the device by performing a gesture on the screen prior to iPhone?

Even one?

Just one please?

No?

Didn't think so.
 
As long as the products are great and we have a good time with them - with something in it for consumers and developers alike, Apple's CEO can be as much of a "control freak" as he likes. In fact, given the User Experience of Apple products, I fully support his "control freak" behaviour. It works like a charm.

I guess you and I are different then.. Enjoy your locked down iGadgets.. where your benevolent master Steve Jobs controlling every aspect of your device, including what 3rd-party products and services you can or cannot access.. Just don't cry when you won't be able to do basic things like NetFlix streaming or Google Voice calling, because Steve decided that "allowing" these services on an iPhone isn't in the best interest of Apple corporate strategy.

Apple has gotten away with their dictatorial model only because iPhone got a head start in a mobile app market by a year or two. Well, guess what - the world is changing and with Android, WebOS and now WP7S - we will just see how this plays out over time.

And the implication that "control freak" approach is the only way to ensure the best user experience is a bunch of hogwash. Heck, even Apple's MacOS is a living proof that a successful ecosystem doesn't require a single company to be the sole arbiter, gatekeeper and toll collector. However, something tells me that if Apple can go back in time and lock down MacOS to "Mac App Store" - they would in a heartbeat.
 
overreact much?

I guess you and I are different then.. Enjoy your locked down iGadgets.. where your benevolent master Steve Jobs controlling every aspect of your device, including what 3rd-party products and services you can or cannot access.. Just don't cry when you won't be able to do basic things like NetFlix streaming or Google Voice calling, because Steve decided that "allowing" these services on an iPhone isn't in the best interest of Apple corporate strategy.

Apple has gotten away with their dictatorial model only because iPhone got a head start in a mobile app market by a year or two. Well, guess what - the world is changing and with Android, WebOS and now WP7S - we will just see how this plays out over time.

And the implication that "control freak" approach is the only way to ensure the best user experience is a bunch of hogwash. Heck, even Apple's MacOS is a living proof that a successful ecosystem doesn't require a single company to be the sole arbiter, gatekeeper and toll collector. However, something tells me that if Apple can go back in time and lock down MacOS to "Mac App Store" - they would in a heartbeat.
 
This occurred to me, Apple and Google were still getting along, even after the Android announcement. It wasn't until the FCC came down and said, "You're competitors, you can't be on the same boards!"

Can you quote that FCC directive?

Or did you mean SEC?
 
Can you name a single touch screen device where you unlocked the device by performing a gesture on the screen prior to iPhone?

Even one?

Just one please?

No?

Didn't think so.

High horse, get off it.


All i am saying fanboy is that IF apple wins this then we're saying that they alone own ANY kind of touch screen unlocking. Lets face it, if you've got a touch screen and you can unlock it via the touchscreen, there's not exactly many different ways to unlock it is there? and to say apple's is the only legal design to do so kinda ruins any competition doesn't it. You like the idea of that do you?
 
High horse, get off it.


All i am saying fanboy is that IF apple wins this then we're saying that they alone own ANY kind of touch screen unlocking. Lets face it, if you've got a touch screen and you can unlock it via the touchscreen, there's not exactly many different ways to unlock it is there? and to say apple's is the only legal design to do so kinda ruins any competition doesn't it. You like the idea of that do you?

Not a high horse. It's the law. For the patent to be invalid, someone had to have invented it before Apple. Otherwise Apple's patent is valid. And the very point of a patent is to grant the inventor a 20-year monopoly. That fosters competition by requiring other companies to come up with alternate, better solutions, and rewarding the inventor who put in the hard work to come up with the idea in the first place.

In a world without patent monopolies why would any company put in large sums of money to take risks on research that might not pan out? Why would Apple invest hundreds of millions of dollars in designing iPhone when everyone else could rip them off within months?

Someone earlier in the thread said patents are not a motivator for innovation and that "none of the greatest inventions of the last 100 years were patented." I responded by listing all of the inventions that had been patented in the last 100 years (TV, microprocessor, etc.) and invited him to tell me what great inventions in the last 100 years were not the result of a patent.

Still waiting for an answer.

And don't saunter in here calling me names. People who actually read my posts know I am anything but a fanboy - just, unlike you, I understand how innovation happens and how intellectual property works.

And, finally, here's a freebie for Google: to work around the patent just remove any visual indication in the form of a moveable object or predefined channel. Alternatively, use spin wheels (like a padlock) that respond not to the gesture, but to the final location of the touches. Or just put up a numeric keypad like everyone used to do, and make you enter a code. Or put up a grid and require the user to chord (simultaneously press) certain locations. Or swipe a predetermined number of times. Or a predetermined sequence of taps, like morse code (which has the benefit that someone can't examine your grease smears to figure out your code). Or dial a phone number with a faux rotary-dial phone dial. Or arrange a series of blocks into a predefined shape. Or write your signature with your finger. Or biometrics using the camera, microphone, or additional hardware. Or use the mic to listen for a particular hummed musical sequence. Or do exactly what iPhone does, but instead of depending on gesture, depend on the result (the slider ending up in its final position) - this probably means that lifting your finger can't reset the slider to the start, but you can make it so lifting your finger moves to any random location other than the start or end, if you'd like.

There - some ways to unlock a touchscreen without infringing the patent (which, unlike you, I took the trouble of analyzing). Happy now?

Quite some monopoly, huh? Won't be possible to have any touchscreen phone without swipe to unlock, right? Feel better?
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.1-update1; en-gb; Nexus One Build/ERE27) AppleWebKit/530.17 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/530.17)

SandynJosh said:
Everybody I know who own iPhones have been so impressed with my Nexus One that they want one.
There are far better choices in the smartphone arena.

The best smart phone for anyone is the one that runs on the network that has the best coverage in the area you intend to use it. If there is a choice of smart phones available from the network of choice, then one should look at the cell phones UI and the availability of apps to support your main intended tasks.

I think the iPhone is the best smart phone out there, but it lacks the coverage I need in my use area, so it can't be a choice. You, on the other hand seem to think that working backwards through the decision tree makes more sense.

What on earth are you on about? Living on the tiny island that I do, no network has the issues that a larger country has.

Network coverage isn't such an issue over here (unless you live in some remote highlands area of Scotland) but thanks for your uneducated opinion.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.1-update1; en-gb; Nexus One Build/ERE27) AppleWebKit/530.17 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/530.17)

carmenodie said:
Everybody I know who own iPhones have been so impressed with my Nexus One that they want one.
There are far better choices in the smartphone arena. :p

(In fact, a few who have seen them are going to import one like I did) :cool:
Blah blah blah! Early adoptee syndrome. Happens all the time.

OH WOW LOOK AT THE ROBOT DANCE THAT IS SO COOL. MAKES MY IPHONE LOOK OLD. I THINK I'LL DROP SOME COIN ON THE NEXUS ONE IN THE MIDDLE OF MY CONTRACT.LOL!!!!!!

I was jokingly replying to the "99% of people don't use Google maps" reply. We can all say 99% of whatever but it doesn't make it true.

Best to attack first then think later eh? ;)

OMG, he said something positive about a non apple product! BURN HIM!
 
Can you name a single touch screen device where you unlocked the device by performing a gesture on the screen prior to iPhone?

Sure, but not from the factory.

As I mentioned before, I did a graphical combination lock in 1993 for a casino project, on a capacitive touchscreen... however, that was a desktop.

Since then, I've been programming enterprise handhelds for over a decade. A big problem has always been getting people to use passwords to lock/unlock their mobile device. It's a major security concern.

Thus there have been plenty of third party visual password/unlock tools over those years, many still being sold. They required either touches at certain picture points, or on a grid, or close replication of a signature or scribble.

Picture Password, Visikey, Gridlock, Matrix, VisualKey and others for the Pocket PC and Palm OS date back at least as far as 2001.

Here's a YouTube video of a user-defined-gesture unlocker that was first sold back in 2003.

The novelty in the Apple version is that it has a visible path. Thus it's a simplistic non-secure version of gesture unlockers that came before it. It was an obvious implementation, but so insecure that nobody tried to sell it. I'll grant that using it for insecure unlocking is clever, but is it worth a patent?

Edit: in the (long) time that it took me to finally post this response, I see that you also pointed out the visible path as the novel item.
 
Can you name a single touch screen device where you unlocked the device by performing a gesture on the screen prior to iPhone?

Even one?

Just one please?

No?

Didn't think so.

Tell you the truth I can think of one.

On my old Palm TX there was some 3rd party software I could install that allowed an unlock using a gesture much like how an iPhone does it. Hit button then it brought up the unlock swipe. Hmm lot like the iPhone is today exept I was doing that in 2004-2005. Long before the iPhone ever came out.

As for the software I can not remember what it was called and my TX broke a long time ago but I do remember doing that to unlock it after I installed the 3rd party software.

Post above showed stuff back even farther. It is my understanding that you can not patent something that is clearly intuitive or clearly the next step. Like you can not patent the wheel. . Apple swipe to unlock patent might not hold up if they can show multiple things long before that used it.
 
Sure, but not from the factory.

As I mentioned before, I did a graphical combination lock in 1993 for a casino project, on a capacitive touchscreen... however, that was a desktop.

Clearly doesn't anticipate the patent claims, as only the end position of the lock matters, not the gesture to get you there.

Since then, I've been programming enterprise handhelds for over a decade. A big problem has always been getting people to use passwords to lock/unlock their mobile device. It's a major security concern.

Thus there have been plenty of third party visual password/unlock tools over those years, many still being sold. They required either touches at certain picture points, or on a grid, or close replication of a signature or scribble.

Picture Password, Visikey, Gridlock, Matrix, VisualKey and others for the Pocket PC and Palm OS date back at least as far as 2001.

Here's a YouTube video of a user-defined-gesture unlocker that was first sold back in 2003.

The novelty in the Apple version is that it has a visible path. Thus it's a simplistic non-secure version of gesture unlockers that came before it. It was an obvious implementation, but so insecure that nobody tried to sell it. I'll grant that using it for insecure unlocking is clever, but is it worth a patent?

The thing that the claim requires (other than the visible path) that seems missing is that the things you mention don't seem to rely on the gesture (that is, the path). Things that require you to touch certain points don't anticipate the claims. Things that require you to move something from point A to point B don't anticipate (since you can use multiple paths to do that, or can lift your finger off the screen, put it back down, and continue).

In my message above, I list a litany of things that you can do and not infringe Apple's claims. Many of those things have been done. And I believe all the things you list (or most of them, at least) are in my list.

All I'm saying is that no one has been able (so far) to give an example of the actual elements of apple's patent claim being done prior to apple's patent. Remember - all that matters is the exact wording of the claims.

p.s.: re the video - it, too, seems to shape match, not gesture match, and, of course, it's missing the visible channel or the visible shape (depending on which claim you look at).
 
HTC Corp. is a Taiwan-based manufacturer of smart phones. They are one of the biggest makers of smart phones. If HTC Corp. loses then it will be unprecedented and no manufacturer will be able to produce phones that infringe on Apple's broad patents. How would you like them :apple:'s?
 
All I'm saying is that no one has been able (so far) to give an example of the actual elements of apple's patent claim being done prior to apple's patent. Remember - all that matters is the exact wording of the claims.

Oh, I agree, and had even pointed out before that HTC doesn't show a path in its WinMo unlockers. But you, sir, had only asked for examples of any gesture being used to unlock :)

(I still say that using one of the old grid-based unlockers, set to just a straight line, with a background skin showing the path, would look a lot like Apple's idea. However, it wouldn't have a visual object being moved.)

Btw, I forgot to include my favorite historical gesture unlock example:

Back in 2002, Microsoft publicly posted Pocket PC sample code for a unlock screen replacement that allowed you to draw a pattern on a grid as your password. Even a straight line would have worked, of course.

The Visual Studio project was called Let Me In and is still available.

Regards.
 
not prior art. Even if I set it for a line (2 points) it would unlock for ANY path between those two points, not just the predetermined path. I could draw a sine wave (as long as I avoided the forbidden points) and it would unlock.

Same principle applies to your other examples. Anything that compares shapes or compares sets of points isn't going to be prior art. Has to be vector paths and lifting you finger midway and continuing has to not unlock.

Oh, I agree, and had even pointed out before that HTC doesn't show a path in its WinMo unlockers. But you, sir, had only asked for examples of any gesture being used to unlock :)

(I still say that using one of the old grid-based unlockers, set to just a straight line, with a background skin showing the path, would look a lot like Apple's idea. However, it wouldn't have a visual object being moved.)

Btw, I forgot to include my favorite historical gesture unlock example:

Back in 2002, Microsoft publicly posted Pocket PC sample code for a unlock screen replacement that allowed you to draw a pattern on a grid as your password. Even a straight line would have worked, of course.

The Visual Studio project was called Let Me In and is still available.

Regards.
 
If Google wanted to join the fun, here are what I want them to do:
-Sell the no-contract Nexus One for $50 or less.
-Force HTC to make the Legend and Desire with tri-band UMTS chip supporting 850 band, and sell them unlocked for cheap in the US.
 
Heh whatever, seriously it's fanboys like you who help boost Apples ego. Yes I bought everything from them because I believed in them and I enjoyed using their products. But when they try to do stupid things like they have over the past several months and also try to take away my income it's time to say good bye.

I'll enjoy my Sony very much thank you, it stomps all over the highest spec mac book, and I own one!

And yes Google is pretty cool, I get to make a living developing software that runs on their products and I'm not getting screwed in the process so I'll take that with my crazy spec Sony and smirk all the way to the bank with my paycheck. I'm not the only one taking this stance other developers at my office have slowly been making the switch for months now.

here the one that make no sense is you, sorry
you owned almost every apple product that apple made, and you stop buying it because apple tries to protect itself?
you reasoning makes no sense. apple spent billions of dollars in research and developing iphone
htc / google very likely are using apple tech without asking / paying
that is stealing, but i guess it is just a concept too difficult for you
i sincerely hope that in the future someone steals some of your codes from your pc and starts making money out of it instead of you

i am sure you would be pretty pissed off...
between apple and google the company that is more dangerous is clearly google, but i guess you cant see that since google is paying your lunch.
Google is a single corporation that is gathering and controlling everything we think and do, now this is dangerous and may seriously develop in something negative
wake up

High horse, get off it.


All i am saying fanboy is that IF apple wins this then we're saying that they alone own ANY kind of touch screen unlocking. Lets face it, if you've got a touch screen and you can unlock it via the touchscreen, there's not exactly many different ways to unlock it is there? and to say apple's is the only legal design to do so kinda ruins any competition doesn't it. You like the idea of that do you?

please
apple patented that, if other companies want to use it, they have to pay
as simple as that
that happens constantly
why only apple is the evil?
u guys r pathetic

Not a high horse. It's the law. For the patent to be invalid, someone had to have invented it before Apple. Otherwise Apple's patent is valid. And the very point of a patent is to grant the inventor a 20-year monopoly. That fosters competition by requiring other companies to come up with alternate, better solutions, and rewarding the inventor who put in the hard work to come up with the idea in the first place.

In a world without patent monopolies why would any company put in large sums of money to take risks on research that might not pan out? Why would Apple invest hundreds of millions of dollars in designing iPhone when everyone else could rip them off within months?

Someone earlier in the thread said patents are not a motivator for innovation and that "none of the greatest inventions of the last 100 years were patented." I responded by listing all of the inventions that had been patented in the last 100 years (TV, microprocessor, etc.) and invited him to tell me what great inventions in the last 100 years were not the result of a patent.

Still waiting for an answer.

And don't saunter in here calling me names. People who actually read my posts know I am anything but a fanboy - just, unlike you, I understand how innovation happens and how intellectual property works.

And, finally, here's a freebie for Google: to work around the patent just remove any visual indication in the form of a moveable object or predefined channel. Alternatively, use spin wheels (like a padlock) that respond not to the gesture, but to the final location of the touches. Or just put up a numeric keypad like everyone used to do, and make you enter a code. Or put up a grid and require the user to chord (simultaneously press) certain locations. Or swipe a predetermined number of times. Or a predetermined sequence of taps, like morse code (which has the benefit that someone can't examine your grease smears to figure out your code). Or dial a phone number with a faux rotary-dial phone dial. Or arrange a series of blocks into a predefined shape. Or write your signature with your finger. Or biometrics using the camera, microphone, or additional hardware. Or use the mic to listen for a particular hummed musical sequence. Or do exactly what iPhone does, but instead of depending on gesture, depend on the result (the slider ending up in its final position) - this probably means that lifting your finger can't reset the slider to the start, but you can make it so lifting your finger moves to any random location other than the start or end, if you'd like.

There - some ways to unlock a touchscreen without infringing the patent (which, unlike you, I took the trouble of analyzing). Happy now?

Quite some monopoly, huh? Won't be possible to have any touchscreen phone without swipe to unlock, right? Feel better?

too difficult to understand i guess
lol
 
I'm not surprised that Apple is going after HTC first. Confronting Google head-on would result only in getting shamefully steamrolled.

This epic ex-lover saga of fail is becoming excruciating. Perhaps a steep loss will encourage Apple to innovate more instead of employing strong arm tactics. :mad:
 
Maybe you should take the time to read up on the patent. There's a little more to it than pretty pictures. Or are you changing your mind for altogether different (more sensible) reasons?

I did read them. I said I was joking and then I said their explanation is so general and common!
 
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