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Because you mentioned the increase is share price for Samsung, HTC, LG, and Foxconn as evidence that those companies are not worried about this deal. Share price directly reflects the opinions of investors, not the strategic plans of the companies.

Fair enough. I was a bit confused as he was mentioning 'analyst comments.'

That being said, I don't see how an investors' analysis should be construed as 'unreliable.' Its their money. I'm pretty darn sure they are savvy with how they're using it to maximize their own profits. Not saying that they should be 'relied upon' though.

Because you linked to a WSJ article about "analyst comments".

Yet I never mentioned anything about 'analyst comments.' That phrase was originated from the other user. Just setting the record straight.
 
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Mark my words it won't be long before we start to see the individual Android vendors decide which side of the fence they'll sit on with the vast majority deciding to leave Android for more profitable ventures elsewhere.

What is the other "more profitable" alternative for the vendors? Go Windows Phone 7? Nice idea but it hasn't made a dent yet and if it does they can be sure to pay what Microsoft damn well demands - including choking their own throats with exclusive licensing agreements. For the OEMs it is clearly in their best interest to go where Google wants them to go. And Motorola for them was always a competitor - that hasn't changed with the acquisition. Don't kid yourself. Both parties need each other.
 
Fair enough. I was a bit confused as he was mentioning 'analyst comments.'

Because you linked to a WSJ article about "analyst comments".

That being said, I don't see how an investors' analysis should be construed as 'unreliable.' Its their money. I'm pretty darn sure they are savvy with how they're using it to maximize their own profits. Not saying that they should be 'relied upon' though.

That's pretty funny. :D
 
Best analysis of the MMI purchase

Horace Dediu has a writeup in the Harvard Business Review in which he explains how Google's strategic mistakes led to the MMI purchase:

However, lately, cracks began to appear in the strategy. Issues with intellectual property in Android caused some licensees to have to pay royalties to patent holders, increasing the cost. Fragmentation took hold where some versions of the software were used by some licensees on some products without the option or incentive to upgrade. Finally, some vendors modified the software resulting in missing features or inconsistent user experiences — even to the extent that Google's own services were omitted.

By essentially "giving away" a modern smartphone operating system Google has very quickly achieved roughly 50% marketshare. (Much the same as you could very quickly build marketshare if you were to "give away" cold-rolled steel or sliced bread.)

The problem is that Google simply hasn't done a very good job of capturing the revenue-producing potential of the Android value-chain. For instance, in mainland China, many Android smartphones default to Baidu as the default search engine - meaning with each such activation Google is actually making one of its most significant competitors stronger. Ouch.

I'd really recommend reading the HBR article, as well as Horace Dediu's Asymco blog. But in closing, I'll just pass along these words of wisdom:

Android's big bet has yet to pay off and Google just doubled down.
 
What is the other "more profitable" alternative for the vendors? Go Windows Phone 7? Nice idea but it hasn't made a dent yet and if it does they can be sure to pay what Microsoft damn well demands - including choking their own throats with exclusive licensing agreements. For the OEMs it is clearly in their best interest to go where Google wants them to go. And Motorola for them was always a competitor - that hasn't changed with the acquisition. Don't kid yourself. Both parties need each other.

I think the dynamic changes a little bit when Motorola/Google is now the supplier and the competition...you don't?
 
"Finally, some vendors modified the software resulting in missing features or inconsistent user experiences — even to the extent that Google's own services were omitted." - Harvard Business Review

That article's author has some large misconceptions about Android code.

The Market and other Google services / apps are NOT part of the public codebase. The Market is only available to be licensed by manufacturers, and Google apps must be licensed as well.

No doubt millions of devices are sold in third world countries without those services, and thus are never counted by Google in their activation numbers, nor does Google directly profit from them. However, they still benefit all those people who could not otherwise afford such a device, and could lead to later adoption of better ones. (People who think that the only point of life is to always profit as much as possible from others, will not understand this.)

It's quite okay to customize the UI as well, however the device cannot use the Android name unless it passes app compatibility tests for the target version.
 
That article's author has some large misconceptions about Android code.

The Market and other Google services / apps are NOT part of the public codebase. The Market is only available to be licensed by manufacturers, and Google apps must be licensed as well.

No doubt millions of devices are sold in third world countries without those services, and thus are never counted by Google in their activation numbers, nor does Google directly profit from them. However, they still benefit all those people who could not otherwise afford such a device, and could lead to later adoption of better ones. (People who think that the only point of life is to always profit as much as possible from others, will not understand this.)

It's quite okay to customize the UI as well, however the device cannot use the Android name unless it passes app compatibility tests for the target version.

So where are these millions of devices being counted in market share reports?

https://www.macrumors.com/2011/08/11/gartner-nokia-held-off-apple-in-smartphone-sales-in-2q-2011/

"Others" is only about a million units/quarter and falling. Surely, that's not all of the not-Android devices that use the Android source code. Are the Android numbers being artificially boosted by not-Androids?
 
FIRST: As earlier stated im only looking at "the western (multi-platform/devices) world" (in lack of a better term). Im completely blind . . .

Yes you are.

Kindly provide some DATA to support all (heck, any!) of your "I think," or "I believe," etc., statements. For instance, your claim that "techies" make up the bulk of Android purchasers--kindly provide a citation to evidence of that. What you've written is your opinion, which doesn't even rise to the level of speculation.

If you'd done even a cursory search, you'd see that market, analyst, and public opinion is that MS-Nokia is a desperate play to become relevant that is unlikely to succeed, since it is based on two companies currently losing in the marketplace. Rather like Sears and K-Mart merging--as many said, "Great--two losers combining!"
 
So where are these millions of devices being counted in market share reports?

I'm not sure they're counted anywhere. Also, I was thinking more of tablets without Google services rather than about phones. We'd have to ask Gartner about the latter. See below.

https://www.macrumors.com/2011/08/11/gartner-nokia-held-off-apple-in-smartphone-sales-in-2q-2011/

"Others" is only about a million units/quarter and falling. Surely, that's not all of the not-Android devices that use the Android source code.

The "Others" in that chart is for other OSes. We're not interested in them.

The "other" we need is buried in Gartner's second chart showing 153 million phones sold by smaller manufacturers.

Are the Android numbers being artificially boosted by not-Androids?

No. Either it's Android or it's not.

If you're asking if Gartner is including $150 Chinese phones with Froyo but no Google services, then I don't know. Want to buy their full report and perhaps find out?

In the meantime, we can make a guess. Let's see. Gartner says 46 million Android phones last quarter. From manufacturer 2011 whole year Android-only predictions evenly divided by four quarters:

ZTE 12 million
HTC 12 million
LG 6 million
Samsung 15 million
MMI 5 million
Huawei 5 million

Umm... well, that didn't help too much. It came out to 55 million average per quarter, which is a bit more than the 2G Gartner total... as it should be, since the numbers should keep going up and the 2011 quarterly average will end up more than the early 2Q sums.

The number does make me think that no, Gartner is not including non-Google-ized phones, if that's what you're asking. If they did, their Android totals should be higher.

Did that make sense? I'm too busy to do much editing today. Btw, I like your avatar. I went to UNC-Chapel Hill before being drafted.
 
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The "Others" in that chart is for other OSes. We're not interested in them.

The "other" we need is buried in Gartner's second chart showing 153 million phones sold by smaller manufacturers.

So, you are saying that not-Android phones (phones that use the Android source code, but do not qualify for the name "Android") do not count as smartphones? That doesn't make sense.

No. Either it's Android or it's not.

I know that's the reality, I'm just asking how it is counted in a report such as the one from Gartner.

If you're asking if Gartner is including $150 Chinese phones with Froyo but no Market, then I don't know. Want to buy their full report and perhaps find out?

Not interested in purchasing their report! :)

What I'd like to know is where two types of "Android-ish" smartphones are counted in the OS market share numbers.

1) Smartphones that are based on the Android source code but are not compatible with standard Android apps (they don't comply with the Compatibility Definition Document.)
2) Android smartphones that do not use Google services including the Android Market.

The number does make me think that no, Gartner is not including non-Google-ized phones, if that's what you're asking. If they did, their Android totals should be higher.

That's where I'm questioning the numbers. Are they leaving out huge numbers of smartphone completely? Are there just not that many non-Google Android phones? Seems hard to believe. Less than 1 million smartphones per quarter? I would think China alone would be producing significant numbers of these devices.

I'm not necessarily asking you directly. Just hoping someone that reads this has more information.

Btw, I like your avatar. I went to UNC-Chapel Hill before being drafted.

:)
 
Yes you are.

Kindly provide some DATA to support all (heck, any!) of your "I think," or "I believe," etc., statements. For instance, your claim that "techies" make up the bulk of Android purchasers--kindly provide a citation to evidence of that. What you've written is your opinion, which doesn't even rise to the level of speculation.

If you'd done even a cursory search, you'd see that market, analyst, and public opinion is that MS-Nokia is a desperate play to become relevant that is unlikely to succeed, since it is based on two companies currently losing in the marketplace. Rather like Sears and K-Mart merging--as many said, "Great--two losers combining!"

See, this is why i said writing it up would be a waste of time. Thanks for proving me right. What data are you after? What evidence must i provide to get you to understand simple concepts related to adoption of technology? What data do i need to provide for the fact that my (and probably your) mom and dad are not tech-savvy early-adopters (but more likely late adopters, or even laggards)?

Of course not everyone using a smart-phone is a techie, far from it (for the record i dont remember stating that either, what i might have said is that Androids core following - which is not the same as anyone purchasing an Android product - at large consist of techies. Why? Simple, they are the ones that truly feel for their offering visavi iOS, webOS, xOS, whateverOS).

Thing is, smart-phones as an industry is very young, and adoption up to this point is nothing compared to what it will be in the years to come (read any analyst projection out there, what market segments do you think will make up for the hundreds of millions of devices to be sold really?).

Second, of course it is my opinion, or belief. Like earlier stated magic crystal balls do not exist. When Gartner makes their forecast they are presenting us with their opinion. When i make my forecast i am presenting you with mine. You see, thats how these things work. We take what is currently known, we try to weed out current trends (both in consumer markets and in technology), we try to understand why these trends are the way they are, what could change or disrupt them, i.e. we try to understand what the future will hold.

Third, ive done more than a "cursory search". Like stated earlier on these boards i study mobile platforms for a living. I, unlike you, perform actual research on these issues. I, unlike you, write scientific articles on matters related to these things. For someone calling for arguments, it would be nice to see anything but random bs. How bout some real arguments to why i am wrong? Arguments beyond "MSFT sucks. Nokia sucks. They will fail. (All hail Steve Jobs!)".

Fourth, if you havent gotten the concept of "convergence of platforms" this far, read up. These matters go well beyond smart-phones. In the totality of things MSFT is hardly a losing company. Yes, Nokia has issues. Serious issues. But those issues have nothing to do with the (soon to be) Windows multi-device platform.

Fifth, even looking at the level of the mobile market MSFT is not really losing. the Wp platform is gaining ground, albeit very slow. Why? Well, its hardly just in the hands of MSFT is it? However, if one thing is certain it is that OEM:s will follow the money. With Mango around the corner, and Nokia gearing up to push volumes (which they will succeed in doing, just like they managed to sell 30 million devices with Symbian last year despite its short comings), the Wp platform will gain more attention, not only from consumers but also from OEMs and developers (i could reiterate basic economic arguments as to why new entrants are more attractive to develop for even if the user base is smaller; similarly, i could point to the turn to HTML5 as a factor that will leverage the playing field - in fact, i could point to a handful of factors that make it likely that Apps will largely become an industry asset in the years to come, but i wont).

Thing is, even if it fails, and MSFT doesn't gain support now - they will later. W8 is around the corner too. Do you think all OEM:s are going to give up on Windows? Really? If not, and MSFT ends up getting full backing for their new platform - which runs on tablets - do you not think they will snag a significant market there? If not, why? (No historical arguments, as W8 is developed with the new form factor - something we really havent seen before from MSFT). Do you think businesses will just give up on their investments in MSFT? Do you think they will NOT take advantage of the fact that they can roll in W8-pads without significant hassle? That all software will run? That they can enjoy the enterprise functionality MSFT supports? (An area where competition surely lack in their respective offerings).

And say they do manage to snag a significant market share here. How far off do you think it is before people also pick up on their mobile offering of the same platform (Wp will integrate, its just a matter of time)? If MSFT offering was crap, i could see your point - at least in the mobile segment - but it is not. Sure, its behind in some respects, i already acknowledged that. But will they be in 1 year? In 2 years? If you really think so, explain why, and how. Also explain why Average Joe (or Jane) will care (or know) enough to not buy their products. After all, that is what will matter in the end.

Now, once again, i find myself throwing pearls at pigs. Ill leave it at that for now.

p.s.

According to economic and innovation research, being the biggest loser may actually be a "good" thing in markets that were recently disrupted. Reason is that drastic situations call for drastic solutions. As such, one may be able to free oneself from the chains that made one sink in first place (put very simply: out with the old, in with the new). If i remember it correctly Teece (who is bound to get a Nobel prize btw), refers to this as (Schumpterian) creative destruction within the firm. I can pull up some articles for you to read if youd like. After all, i got them at home an arms length away.

Disclaimer:

I really dont give a rats ass "who wins" in the end. Well, actually, i'd like the consumers to win but im not that naive (and, to be frank, consumers are stupid anyway so who cares).
 
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dunno about you but i'd definitely prefer Google's overlay/UI over Comcast's in a heartbeat.



Thing is they're not analyst comments. Those numbers are from Asia's stock market last night. Stocks were high for all Android related companies, including HTC, Samsung, LG, Foxconn, and some key component suppliers for Motorola.

Also, I prefer analyst comments over armchair analysis from MR anyday.


Foxconn is much more an Apple manufacturing company then a Motorola company, or even an Android company so its stock going higher isnt likely because of positive thoughts about Google's folly. After reading alot over the last few hours, I'm really not sure the Cable boxes arent going to be the big hurdle in the regulatory process. Not that Motorola probably cares, they got $2.5B coming in if this doesnt happen.
 
Foxconn is much more an Apple manufacturing company then a Motorola company, or even an Android company so its stock going higher isnt likely because of positive thoughts about Google's folly. After reading alot over the last few hours, I'm really not sure the Cable boxes arent going to be the big hurdle in the regulatory process. Not that Motorola probably cares, they got $2.5B coming in if this doesnt happen.

From what I've read, it looks as though the deal will go through, but the IP lawsuits coming Android's way will continue to be a burden on Google, even with the acquisition of 17,000 patents from Motorola, the OG (original gangsta) of wireless companies.

Its definitely a net positive though for Foxconn, as Motorola/Foxconn relationship will remain intact. And yes, Foxconn's biggest client is definitely Apple, there is no doubt about that.

For the STB business, I agree. I think there will be all kinds of regulatory approvals necessary for this to work out. Not to mention, the cable providers' input on Google muscling its way into living rooms. I don't think Comcast is 'happy' about this new development. This kind of litigation could possibly take years to overcome.

I'm not surprised that S&P downgraded Google from 'Buy' to 'Sell.' Google acquired 20k more employees, and a company whose net income is negative. This is a really bold move on Google's part. For once I think I agree with MG Siegler on this. Its either a really smart move, or a really dumb one.
 
From what I've read, it looks as though the deal will go through, but the IP lawsuits coming Android's way will continue to be a burden on Google, even with the acquisition of 17,000 patents from Motorola, the OG (original gangsta) of wireless companies.

I'm not directing this question directly at you, but your comment made me think of it. Why would the DOJ force Microsoft to sell the 882 patents that it acquired from Novell, but allow a market leader with a 50% share in Google to acquire 17,000-25,000 patents?
 
Dear Google

While you were out with the new Mrs., we were continuing to build out our world class supply chain, and yeah, we have some problems with the iPad Retina display that we have to work out, but the 28nm A6 is coming along nicely at TSMC. Isn't it cool that Imagineering Technologies picked up Caustic Labs last year? We can't wait to see ray tracing on the iPad.

Welcome to our world and have a nice day.

Be sure to say hello to Larry Ellison for us when you see him.

Apple
 
Like stated earlier on these boards i study mobile platforms for a living. I, unlike you, perform actual research on these issues. I, unlike you, write scientific articles on matters related to these things..

When in doubt, spew. I see you learned that, though you don't write well enough to be paid to do it.

Hence: kindly link or PM me some of the "scientific articles" you claim to write. Along with some of your purported "research." Unless and until you do, you're simply a fraud.

It's not difficult to use some actual numerical data to support what you're saying. Unless, of course, it doesn't exist.
 
I'm not directing this question directly at you, but your comment made me think of it. Why would the DOJ force Microsoft to sell the 882 patents that it acquired from Novell, but allow a market leader with a 50% share in Google to acquire 17,000-25,000 patents?

The behavior, history of behavior, and likely behavior by the company is taken into account.

Microsoft has a very long and very documented history of anti-competitive practices. Both their competitors (including Apple) and their partners (including Dell and Intel) have made many complaints about lots of different actions MS has taken in the past.

Google doesn't exemplify that exact pattern of behavior. Yes, there are complaints about google's policies. These are centered around their prevalence as a search giant and advertising business. Few people (that I have heard of anyway) have accused Google of trying to strangle their competition.

If the DOJ thought that there was a small risk that Google would leverage a group of patents agressively, then they might well allow them to possess there whereas they might be suspicious of the motives for a Microsoft (or Apple, lately).
 
Will this create even a little urgency for apple to give up all the sweet features they have in tow a liiiittle earlier from now on?
 
The behavior, history of behavior, and likely behavior by the company is taken into account.

Microsoft has a very long and very documented history of anti-competitive practices. Both their competitors (including Apple) and their partners (including Dell and Intel) have made many complaints about lots of different actions MS has taken in the past.

Google doesn't exemplify that exact pattern of behavior. Yes, there are complaints about google's policies. These are centered around their prevalence as a search giant and advertising business.

If the DOJ thought that there was a small risk that Google would leverage a group of patents agressively, then they might well allow them to possess there whereas they might be suspicious of the motives for a Microsoft (or Apple, lately).

I hope that's your opinion and not the DOJ's actual legal standard. "Well, nobody's complained too loudly about them so far. I'm sure that just because they paid 12 billion for access to the patents doesn't mean that they are going to leverage them aggressively against their competitors." :)

Few people (that I have heard of anyway) have accused Google of trying to strangle their competition.

You mean like how they are leveraging their windfall profits from one market that they dominate (search/online advertising) to gain market share in a separate market by offering a product for free? And tying that free product to it's own services through licensing deals that push out competitors. Sounds familiar somehow.
 
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Foxconn is much more an Apple manufacturing company then a Motorola company, or even an Android company so its stock going higher isnt likely because of positive thoughts about Google's folly. After reading alot over the last few hours, I'm really not sure the Cable boxes arent going to be the big hurdle in the regulatory process. Not that Motorola probably cares, they got $2.5B coming in if this doesnt happen.

No, they have nothing coming in if this doesnt happen. Google only needs to pay if they back out. Not being allowed to buy != backing out.

When in doubt, spew. I see you learned that, though you don't write well enough to be paid to do it.

Hence: kindly link or PM me some of the "scientific articles" you claim to write. Along with some of your purported "research." Unless and until you do, you're simply a fraud.

It's not difficult to use some actual numerical data to support what you're saying. Unless, of course, it doesn't exist.

1) Yet another post that says.... yeah "....". Nothing. Kind of cute at first, by now its old though.

2) As for my writing, i am not used to having to spell everything out. My general audience is intelligent enough to fill in the blanks.

3) I have no intentions of outing myself on these boards, or any other boards for that matter. I could provide you with some interesting work on the matter though (its not like im on top of the field anyway)... or you can just use google scholar: Yoo, Lyytinen, Cusamano and Gawer has written some nice stuff on the topic, to name a few).

(call me a fraud all you want. my university paycheck says differently).

4) In the last post i asked you what data you were interested in. You failed to respond. Trolls usually do.

Ciao!
 
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