Yeah yeah you have a point. However, it was a bit disingenuous of big Steve to show the blue dot on Lombard Street in SF in the keynote. Were we supposed to think he was just running very fast? Also, my TomTomOne isn't much bigger than an iPhone (albeit it only has the GPS antenna, not the other antennae that are cammed into the iPhone case)
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
GPS not good enough for turn by turn??
- Thread starter Ori
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Well said.
Honestly, I was one of those people where if the iPhone3G were able to give in-vehicle, automated, audible turn-by-turn directions, I would be waiting in line for one. At the moment, I'm simply not sure yet.
Also, I'm just not getting the impression that Apple wants us to use the iPhone 3G GPS in the same way people use TomTom navigation systems and other nav systems of the like. For one thing, they have been continuously pushing these new applications that are designed to utilize your precise location for whatever purpose (the new to-do list for example). In addition, because of the fact that there are so many people who are looking for this automated TomTom-like navigation system capability with the iPhone3G, I get the impression that if Apple wanted the iPhone to have this capability, they would have advertised it to do so.
It's just a total waiting game at this point. Until Apple is explicit in their intentions with the GPS, there's nothing we can really do to say for certain either way. Here's to hoping for a TomTom application!
I completely agree with you, I just didn't want to slam the door shut on all those people who want the iPhone to replace true GPS devices on the market... lol
With every forth coming software update, there's going to be chatter, "Apple please turn on true GPS"
And I'm with you, I'm willing to say I'm 99.9% certain there will be no pinpoints for a GPS antenna in the connector..
If Apple is already prohibiting the development of turn-by-turn navigation products in the license and downplaying the in-vehicle GPS capability for its first New York Times review, I highly doubt the GPS antenna will suddenly be present in the dock connector pinout.
You're right: I absolutely do not know this, and I would be very happy if it were there, as it would open up possibilities. But I'm also trying to be a tad realistic. It's only an opportunity for the third party marketplace if the GPS antenna is present in the dock connector. Some people are just saying it like it's a foregone conclusion.
I would love an OS X-based, excellent in-car nav product for the iPhone. I'd be the first person in line.
But no matter how much chatter there is about Apple "turning on" "true GPS", it isn't going to make the physical GPS antenna configuration and capabilities of the phone any different.
Apple will most certainly have to clarify these things, but I'm just preparing people for the possibility that it is not ARTIFICIAL restrictions that may be limiting it. It might be a physical, technical limitation. That is not to say it wouldn't work; it just might have caveats, like, the device MUST be mounted under the windshield glass with as unobstructed a view of the sky as possible.
But as I said, there are also licensing, carrier, and map data use (e.g., via Google Maps) concerns as well. We don't know how all these are interrelated.
This was on David Pogue's review on the NYT.
--
Unfortunately, theres not much you can do with the G.P.S. According to Apple, the iPhones G.P.S. antenna is much too small to emulate the turn-by-turn navigation of a G.P.S. unit for a vehicle, for example.
Instead, all it can do at this point is track your position as you drive along, representing you as a blue dot sliding along the roads of the map. Even then, the metal of a car or the buildings of Manhattan are often enough to block the iPhones view of the sky, leaving it just as confused as you are.
--
Full review here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/technology/personaltech/09pogue.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
--
Unfortunately, theres not much you can do with the G.P.S. According to Apple, the iPhones G.P.S. antenna is much too small to emulate the turn-by-turn navigation of a G.P.S. unit for a vehicle, for example.
Instead, all it can do at this point is track your position as you drive along, representing you as a blue dot sliding along the roads of the map. Even then, the metal of a car or the buildings of Manhattan are often enough to block the iPhones view of the sky, leaving it just as confused as you are.
--
Full review here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/technology/personaltech/09pogue.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Exactly. And to be clear, there's no reason to believe a potential TomTom application couldn't work as well as it does on any other wireless handset with a small GPS antenna. The problem is many of the GPS antennas are indeed larger, and even external.
Here's one possibility: perhaps an external Bluetooth GPS antenna, as used with other wireless handsets? Look, I'm not saying this isn't technically possible it may be, and very likely is. It may even work great, more or less, now, with some caveats, like how/where to mount the phone, external power, etc.
But there are a number of other factors here which we'll hopefully get clarification on from Apple after its release.
But the biggest thing, at the moment, is Apple's prohibition of turn-by-turn nav applications in the iPhone SDK. No matter how capable it is, or unless that really only applies to apps which use Google Maps data, we simply won't be seeing these apps, no matter how great the third party marketplace is.
(And no, the market won't be the hacking/jailbreaking community, because it is FAR to small to support a commercial quality, reliable vehicle nav product.)
Correct.
In fact, Selective Availability (the intentional error introduced into GPS for non-military users) was turned off eight years ago.
If we can't get something that happened nearly a decade ago right...
The original comment in the review - "The antenna isn't big enough" seems a bit odd to me. If it's good enough to pick up 3 satellites and triangulate when held in your hand, why can't it do the same sitting in a cradle on your dashboard/windscreen, just like a TomTom?
If sitting on a dash, or mounted on a sucker cup on the windscreen it would be looking straight up through the backwards leaning glass of the front window, thus having a 180 degree (or more) arc of reception from the horizon ahead to the window frame above. Then add the 180 degree horizontal arc from A pillar to A pillar and how is this different from what any other GPS system has?
All that is needed then is to write the slick app and download the mapping information (probably stored onboard would be the way to go) and bingo. And you can't tell me that the iPhone has less processing power than an average TomTom. Or less memory! Something about all this negative info isn't quite right. Prohibition on GPS nav in the SDK, and a comment thrown out by an Apple spokesperson with no specific attribution. It just doesn't all add up.
We all know Steve only wants to make the best devices on the market in whatever category Apple goes into. Turn by turn vehicle navigation is THE killer app for GPS - it's what everyone automatically thinks of when you say 'GPS'. Why else would you bother putting the chips in if you weren't planning a nav app? Just to have the fun of explaining to everyone for the next two years how the device doesn't do what they most wanted? To spend two years promoting how wonderful geotagging is? Yeah, right.
If sitting on a dash, or mounted on a sucker cup on the windscreen it would be looking straight up through the backwards leaning glass of the front window, thus having a 180 degree (or more) arc of reception from the horizon ahead to the window frame above. Then add the 180 degree horizontal arc from A pillar to A pillar and how is this different from what any other GPS system has?
All that is needed then is to write the slick app and download the mapping information (probably stored onboard would be the way to go) and bingo. And you can't tell me that the iPhone has less processing power than an average TomTom. Or less memory! Something about all this negative info isn't quite right. Prohibition on GPS nav in the SDK, and a comment thrown out by an Apple spokesperson with no specific attribution. It just doesn't all add up.
We all know Steve only wants to make the best devices on the market in whatever category Apple goes into. Turn by turn vehicle navigation is THE killer app for GPS - it's what everyone automatically thinks of when you say 'GPS'. Why else would you bother putting the chips in if you weren't planning a nav app? Just to have the fun of explaining to everyone for the next two years how the device doesn't do what they most wanted? To spend two years promoting how wonderful geotagging is? Yeah, right.
Speculation at best but with some clever programming an external Bluetooth gps device could be used. I know this is redundant since the device has a gps antenna in it. What I don't understand is this. We know that the new google maps has tracking, you can see it on the demo on Apples site, how hard would it be to just allow the existing turn by turn to move to the next leg of a trip once it detects that you have complete a particular section. This functionality would be plenty good for me.
I think this part is just because google spends a lot of money collecting all of that data and they would rather other nav companies cross that hurdle themselves.
It remains to be seen whether it's either a.) allowed by Apple (or even possible at the moment) or b.) even done by anyone if it is possible, given that it would have limited applications, since turn-by-turn apps are prohibited by the iPhone SDK. It doesn't need to be "clever" programming. It's either going to be possible via the SDK, or not.
Again, the jailbreaking community, no matter how vibrant, is far, far to small to support a complete, commercial quality in-car nav system.
Everything you said here is more or less correct.
It's not that these things aren't technically possible.
But, as you indicate, in-car use would have a number of caveats, such as mounting position, external power, and so on. And again, there may be licensing, carrier, and map data issues (e.g., prohibition on using Google Maps data). So, sure, someone could do an app with their own data, but we simply don't know what Apple's strategy is here, and/or technical limitations. And while I generally agree with your antenna comments, it may very well be that the iPhone 3Gs GPS antenna is NOT quite as good as other dedicated GPS units or wireless handsets.
Also, Location Based Services (LBS) may be a LOT bigger than you surmise. This is what people think Apple is heading for with GPS on the iPhone. It doesn't matter what people assume GPS means...well, scratch that: it may matter, and Apple may have to clarify things. But as it stands now, this is all moot discussion since turn-by-turn nav apps are prohibited by the iPhone SDK, and the jailbreaking community is too small to support a high quality vehicle nav system — nothing against them. And they'll get sidelined even more once the app store is out.
Note though, that we're taking issue with:
- A comment DIRECTLY from Apple, likely in direct response to a question from David Pogue. There might be more nuance there, but if Apple says the antenna is "too small" to be used accurately and well in a car, they probably got that right, considering they are being VERY careful with the first reviewers, particularly NYT.
- A person who actually has and is testing an iPhone 3G in a car, and says, sure enough, it can't maintain a fix. Sure, we can ask "was it in the windshield just right" and "could there still be an external Bluetooth GPS antenna" and all sorts of other questions; but ultimaely it doesn't matter if the SDK disallows such apps anyway. And they may be disallowed for good reason.
Pogue isn't an idiot. Sure, he dumbs things down in his articles because they are intended to be read by a VERY mainstream viewer. And if the result is that Apple is saying, and Pogue is concluding, that the iPhone 3G's GPS antenna, as-is, is not quite good enough for in-car nav applications, that is *probably* more or less true. There may be a million other factors. And it may ultimately be possible, with the proper configuration. But we need more clarification from Apple on why turn-by-turn nav apps are prohibited on the app store before it will even matter.
And to repeat, for people who don't like to read the whole thread, it could be for a number of reasons:
Licensing and/or other agreements with carriers
Global licensing uniformity issues
Map data licensing issues
Google Maps map data use issues
Future plans
Physical antenna limitations for in-vehicle applications
Product positioning
Not wanting to compete where it won't be the clear winner
Etc.
My understanding is that the prohibited use of GPS apps is only applicable on GOOGLE MAPS. Eg you're not allowed to make an app that uses data from Google Maps. This does not prohibit other companies of using their own maps/map data in their own apps.
That's not what the SDK license agreement says. It is speculation that this only refers to Google Maps data, and quite frankly a reach given the current language.
The SDK license says:
Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance [...]
Nothing about the data source. Seems fairly clear.
It seems you're right. I read the SDK Agreement and nowhere is it mentioned that it refers to data sources or Maps application. Somewhere I read that it only applied to Google Maps but I actually hadnt checked myself.
I surrender.
Based on my new intel I dont think any company could make a 3rd party GPS app without scoring a deal with Apple first.
I rest my case.
To add to this, automotive navigation apps must also usually "snap" your location to the closest roadway. This means just showing your calculated position on top of a graphical map is not enough... the app has to actually know where the roads are.
(Which is why they get a bit confused if you turn off into an unmapped mall parking lot.)
The error introduced into GPS signals by the military was removed in the Clinton administration.
You're now only limited by the quality of the GPS receiver.
Guys....
Google doesn't want their maps being used for turn-by-turn realtime monitoring car NAV for one reason and one reason only - LIABILITY. It only takes one moron doing exactly what the GPS says to do and making a turn onto a no-longer-existing or closed road and having an accident, then turning around and suing Google... And don't think it doesn't or won't happen.
Google Maps/Earth is great for finding locations and such, but I wouldn't want to rely upon it for real-time nav. The data just doesn't get updated often enough.
Additionally, keep in mind - with the iPhone, 1 app running at a time... So if you're driving along, totally lost, and relying upon the GPS for nav and suddenly you get a call.... NO MORE NAV!
I consider the GPS in the iPhone a "nice to have", esp since I'm working on a few apps that require it, but I wouldn't consider it a "mission critical" capability. I certainly wouldn't rely upon it as my only way of getting from point a to point b...
Google doesn't want their maps being used for turn-by-turn realtime monitoring car NAV for one reason and one reason only - LIABILITY. It only takes one moron doing exactly what the GPS says to do and making a turn onto a no-longer-existing or closed road and having an accident, then turning around and suing Google... And don't think it doesn't or won't happen.
Google Maps/Earth is great for finding locations and such, but I wouldn't want to rely upon it for real-time nav. The data just doesn't get updated often enough.
Additionally, keep in mind - with the iPhone, 1 app running at a time... So if you're driving along, totally lost, and relying upon the GPS for nav and suddenly you get a call.... NO MORE NAV!
I consider the GPS in the iPhone a "nice to have", esp since I'm working on a few apps that require it, but I wouldn't consider it a "mission critical" capability. I certainly wouldn't rely upon it as my only way of getting from point a to point b...
But TomTom don't seem to mind the liability. Hence the parallel thread in the argument about TomTom being able to have a full blown app.
Google Maps data uses TomTom's TeleAtlas data - so it's current, plus as previously mentinoned, TomTom/Google are likely to open it up so you can update the map data.
To be honest, who should really take a phone call, when they're at a critical point in the driving, where they need to concentrate on the GPS? Pull over, or wait till it's an easier road junction. Pretty hard to drive, take a call, and look at a GPS anyway, so it's a kind of void argument.