GPS not good enough for turn by turn??

[daveschroeder]

But TomTom don't seem to mind the liability. Hence the parallel thread in the argument about TomTom being able to have a full blown app.

Google Maps data uses TomTom's TeleAtlas data - so it's current, plus as previously mentinoned, TomTom/Google are likely to open it up so you can update the map data.

To be honest, who should really take a phone call, when they're at a critical point in the driving, where they need to concentrate on the GPS? Pull over, or wait till it's an easier road junction. Pretty hard to drive, take a call, and look at a GPS anyway, so it's a kind of void argument.

This isn't about liability.

This is about the fact that, for now, the iPhone SDK license prohibits it. This, by extension, means that such applications will likely not be approved.

At this time, we do not know which of numerous possible reasons this is.

Ultimately, it may be a combination of technical and other reasons, and it will probably become obvious once people actually have iPhone 3Gs in their hands, as, at that time, we will be able to:

- Confirm the accuracy and ability to maintain a fix, both inside and outside of a vehicle, in urban settings, etc.
- Assess battery life when GPS is in use (yes, we know they can be attached to power in a vehicle, but this is still important)
- Determine the antenna size and type used
- Determine the GPS chipset used
- Determine whether the GPS antenna pinouts are available via the dock connector, and/or whether an external Bluetooth GPS antenna is possible
- A number of other things

All we know right now is that:

- Apple's iPhone SDK prohibits applications which provide "real time route guidance"
- Apple advertises "turn by turn" directions now, on its own site, for simple "walking around"-type use with Google Maps
- The consensus among analysts and tech pundits is that Apple is going to be hitting LBS. Hard. And it could be very, very big.
- Apple directly told a New York Times reviewer that the device is not suitable for in-car nav applications. Yes, there could be a million caveats, and it *could* be fine in the windshield, etc., but we don't know that yet, and we won't until people get them and test for themselves. But Pogue isn't a fool, and if he said it had a hard time maintaining a fix in a vehicle, I tend to believe it. However, we don't know if he was just holding it in his hand, or whether it was under the windshield, etc.

We'll know more Friday.

This has NOTHING to do with whether a third party provider is willing to accept liability. Apple is currently prohibiting real time route guidance application, period, and not just ones that use Google Maps data. We do not yet know exactly why this is, and it could be for a number of reasons. But no, GPS isn't "useless" if it can't be used for realtime in-car nav. But it's clear that Apple isn't currently targeting that market, and there are probably good reasons.

 

[Archie-]

To the person saying any small phone would have the same issue - the HTC Diamond is much smaller than the iPhone 3G, and GPS works fine. In fact the phone comes bundled with TomTom 7 software, which is not even out yet for general consumption.

The problem with the iPhone is that you can only do what Apple wants you to do, and it seems they dont want to sully their phone by having it used for in-car navigation. God knows why not, but then we dont know why they do not do A2DP, MMS, cut and paste and the 100 other things they seemed to have intentionally left out.

The statement that a work-around would be to use an external GPS receiver, despite the device having GPS built-in is funny, because of course people are using external A2DP transmitters, despite the phone having bluetooth built-in.

If you want to do anything advanced, you seem to be constantly struggling against Apple's restrictions.

 

[t0mat0]

Agreed. It's about if and or when the SDK will stop the prohibition or make an exception. And what the reasoning is for the current prohibition.

it'd be cracking to actually have one or 2 main threads regarding the GPS - I know BlueViolet is taking suggestions for sticky threads at this thread
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/513564/

Maybe the list you have should be added, so we can have a list of questions we can try and get answered once people have their hands on them. That or a guide?

- Confirm the accuracy and ability to maintain a fix, both inside and outside of a vehicle, in urban settings, etc.
- Assess battery life when GPS is in use (yes, we know they can be attached to power in a vehicle, but this is still important)
- Determine the antenna size and type used
- Determine the GPS chipset used
- Determine whether the GPS antenna pinouts are available via the dock connector, and/or whether an external Bluetooth GPS antenna is possible
- A number of other things


All we know right now is that:

- Apple's iPhone SDK prohibits applications which provide "real time route guidance"
- Apple advertises "turn by turn" directions now, on its own site, for simple "walking around"-type use with Google Maps
- The consensus among analysts and tech pundits is that Apple is going to be hitting LBS. Hard. And it willbe very, very big.
- Pogue says that Apple directly told him directly that the device is not suitable for in-car nav applications. Yes, there could be a million caveats, and it *could* be fine in the windshield, etc., but we don't know that yet, and we won't until people get them and test for themselves. But Pogue isn't a fool, and if he said it had a hard time maintaining a fix in a vehicle, I tend to believe it. However, we don't know if he was just holding it in his hand, or whether it was under the windshield, etc.

Pogue did say that, but in the same time, he mentioned skyscrapers. Even something like a Forerunner 405 might have problems in that environment

We'll know more Friday.
Aye Guess I just can't wait to get my hands on one.

 

[RRK]

To the person saying any small phone would have the same issue - the HTC Diamond is much smaller than the iPhone 3G, and GPS works fine. In fact the phone comes bundled with TomTom 7 software, which is not even out yet for general consumption.

The problem with the iPhone is that you can only do what Apple wants you to do, and it seems they dont want to sully their phone by having it used for in-car navigation. God knows why not, but then we dont know why they do not do A2DP, MMS, cut and paste and the 100 other things they seemed to have intentionally left out.

The statement that a work-around would be to use an external GPS receiver, despite the device having GPS built-in is funny, because of course people are using external A2DP transmitters, despite the phone having bluetooth built-in.

If you want to do anything advanced, you seem to be constantly struggling against Apple's restrictions.

Again, I would say this part may have to do with AT&T Navigator.

 

[Archie-]

Again, I would say this part may have to do with AT&T Navigator.

But the iPhone is world wide. USA is less than 10% of the world market for mobile phones. If Apple played their card right they would expect to sell more phones overseas than in USA, but it seems they are catering to the technological level of USA rather than Europe and many parts of Asia for example.

 

[daveschroeder]

But the iPhone is world wide. USA is less than 10% of the world market for mobile phones. If Apple played their card right they would expect to sell more phones overseas than in USA, but it seems they are catering to the technological level of USA rather than Europe and many parts of Asia for example.

But we have no idea why Apple isn't targeting in-car nav currently. I gave a number of possible reasons, all valid, why this might be. (And, to be clear, I am not saying it has to do with the size of the handset...it's the size of the antenna. And whether the antenna is bigger or smaller or has more gain, etc., in the iPhone 3G vs the HTC Touch Diamond is pure speculation at the moment.)

Yes, Apple controls this ecosystem. But you can't compare a targeted app for ONE product (e.g., TomTom on the HTC Touch Diamond under Windows Mobile) against what may be developed in worldwide markets on potentially hundreds of carriers for the iPhone. Apple's control works well for the vast majority of consumers. That's why the iPod and iTunes paradigm were so ridiculously successful, and continue to be.

It's like people are just imagining Apple as a king sitting on high, saying, hmm, we don't think you, our subjects, need in car nav. Therefore, poof, we won't let you have it. I have already outlined a number of possibilities why there are prohibitions on realtime nav at the moment. Some may — believe it or not — actually be technical limitations. And no matter how much control Apple exerts over it's products, you simply can't argue with the success they've had.

The iPhone and its SDK would be an AMAZING platform for a nav product. Far better than anything else out there. So many wheels wouldn't have to be re-invented to make a world class navigation application far better than anything else out there, not to mention visually stunning. Apple knows this. So can you fathom a world where there might be an actual, legitimate reason Apple is doing what it's doing, whether you might personally agree with it or not?

 

[RRK]

But the iPhone is world wide. USA is less than 10% of the world market for mobile phones. If Apple played their card right they would expect to sell more phones overseas than in USA, but it seems they are catering to the technological level of USA rather than Europe and many parts of Asia for example.

Apple has shown that it is US centric in many other situations. Maybe after Apple's iPhone market share is mostly non-US they would offer a feature not available in the US.

 

[daveschroeder]

Apple has shown that it is US centric in many other situations. Maybe after Apple's iPhone market share is mostly non-US they would offer a feature not available in the US.

But if there are TECHNICAL limitations that ultimately do prevent the iPhone 3G from being suitable for in-car nav applications, then the discussion isn't about Apple "offering a feature" on the current device; it's a discussion about why Apple chose that tradeoff.

Is the iPhone's GPS antenna just as good as anything else when mounted under the windshield? I don't know. Apple explicitly told one of its first reviewers that the antenna isn't suitable for in car nav, and the reviewer, who is not a moron, generally agreed. Yeah, it's skyscraper city. No, we don't know how he was holding it in the car.

We also don't know what other limitations Apple may be operating under. They may be taking baby steps. They may have the coolest nav application ever up their sleeve, but aren't releasing it until its ready. There may be interplay with the persistent rumors that, as Apple moves OS X more and more to an embedded model (Apple TV, iPhone, etc.), Apple may be going vehicle interfaces and navigation systems.

But getting the phone in our hands should quickly confirm just how easily it can maintain a fix in a vehicle under the windshield.

 

[ubersalad]

Apple has shown that it is US centric in many other situations. Maybe after Apple's iPhone market share is mostly non-US they would offer a feature not available in the US.

History has shown that Asia and Europe have much different preference than US. You simply can't win them all.

From a business perspective, I don't think Apple should ever shift their focus away from their biggest clientele in hopes to gain more. If anything, they could release an iPhone-Eu or iPhone-Asia, similar to what every phone manufacturers have already been doing.

 

[RRK]

But getting the phone in our hands should quickly confirm just how easily it can maintain a fix in a vehicle under the windshield.

Yeh sure, but I was responding to Archies point about Apple's relationship with international iPhone providers vs at&t.

 

[kdarling]

[

The iPhone and its SDK would be an AMAZING platform for a nav product. Far better than anything else out there.

Can you explain on what you base this idea?

With its deliberate lack of multitasking, the iPhone would seem a poor platform for a GPS app that could get interrupted by incoming calls or texts.

On other phones, TomTom continues to display directions over the phone screen.

On the iPhone, TomTom would be forced to exit when a call comes in. You would then have to hit the Home button and find and launch TomTom again.

 

[daveschroeder]

[

Can you explain on what you base this idea?

With its deliberate lack of multitasking, the iPhone would seem a poor platform for a GPS app that could get interrupted by incoming calls or texts.

On other phones, TomTom continues to display directions over the phone screen.

On the iPhone, TomTom would be forced to exit when a call comes in. You would then have to hit the Home button and find and launch TomTom again.

Ugh. I'm not talking about multitasking here.

I'm talking about the platform in general. The features and functionality of the SDK. The iPhone hardware capabilities. The screen size and resolution. The iPhone OS. The APIs that the OS provides. Being based on an incredibly powerful desktop platform, from a development perspective. Not things that are artificial, deliberate limitations of specific aspects of how applications can interact with the phone.

The point is that the iPhone WOULD be an amazing platform...which is what I said. But that is moot, since Apple's iPhone SDK license prohibits the development of such applications, and there may be other limitations, one of which you yourself just noted.

 

[ntrigue]

I think it'll be fine. Thankfully though, I can read a map, so there will be no need for turn-by-turn directions courtesy of GPS

I will be taking advantage of the 15-day right to pull out of contract if the GPS is crippled.

 

[t0mat0]

<snip>With its deliberate lack of multitasking, the iPhone would seem a poor platform for a GPS app that could get interrupted by incoming calls or texts.

On other phones, TomTom continues to display directions over the phone screen.

On the iPhone, TomTom would be forced to exit when a call comes in. You would then have to hit the Home button and find and launch TomTom again.

What's to stop Apple resolving this software issue? It's not like you can't do certain multitasking. Poor platform for that sort of GPS app currently, yes.

 

[bbplayer5]

If apple is blocking GPS as a company, I will personally boycott them and look elsewhere for my cell phone. I would even drop ATT just to spite them. They wouldnt care, but id be happier not contributing to a company that doesnt put their best foot forward for me.

 

[daveschroeder]

If apple is blocking GPS as a company, I will personally boycott them and look elsewhere for my cell phone. I would even drop ATT just to spite them. They wouldnt care, but id be happier not contributing to a company that doesnt put their best foot forward for me.

I don't think Apple is "blocking GPS", consider they *just added* GPS to the handset, and are going full-force after Location Based Services market.

 

[Donz0r]

If apple is blocking GPS as a company, I will personally boycott them and look elsewhere for my cell phone. I would even drop ATT just to spite them. They wouldnt care, but id be happier not contributing to a company that doesnt put their best foot forward for me.

I agree, alhtough I'd probably keep it,
They're making a big deal out of this GPS, and to the general population GPS=SatNav. period.
technically this isn't correct, but forget this gps for location based app ********, it needs satnav. If the iPhone doesn't have SatNav soooooooo many people will be pissed off, claiming false advertising until they realize that GPS doesn't technically mean SatNav.

 

[crees!]

Blackberry Can

The original comment in the review - "The antenna isn't big enough" seems a bit odd to me. If it's good enough to pick up 3 satellites and triangulate when held in your hand, why can't it do the same sitting in a cradle on your dashboard/windscreen, just like a TomTom.

I don't know the exact model. Working to figure that out. But I was on a road trip w/ a co-worker and he programmed his Blackberry for directions; and as we were crossing state lines it would announce out loud, "Approaching state line in 800 feet... Approaching state line in 500 feet." So if a Crackberry can do it just by sitting in a door pocket then surely the iPhone can.

 

[Donz0r]

I don't know the exact model. Working to figure that out. But I was on a road trip w/ a co-worker and he programmed his Blackberry for directions; and as we were crossing state lines it would announce out loud, "Approaching state line in 800 feet... Approaching state line in 500 feet." So if a Crackberry can do it just by sitting in a door pocket then surely the iPhone can.

Didn't Steve Jobs triangulate in seconds at WWDC, inside a large building? or was that pre-recorded? I'd check but i can't view Quicktime here at work.

I agree, the iPhone is definitly capable of turn by turn, the one guy on this forum reviewing it said that the GPS was incredibly accurate, he WALKED half a block and it tracked him very precisely

 

[daveschroeder]

Didn't Steve Jobs triangulate in seconds at WWDC, inside a large building? or was that pre-recorded? I'd check but i can't view Quicktime here at work.

I agree, the iPhone is definitly capable of turn by turn, the one guy on this forum reviewing it said that the GPS was incredibly accurate, he WALKED half a block and it tracked him very precisely

No, that was prerecorded. No GPS devices work inside buildings. (Yes, there are some very narrow applications and some devices/receivers that could work in certain building types. But generally GPS does not work inside buildings.)

 

[crees!]

No, that was prerecorded. No GPS devices work inside buildings. (Yes, there are some very narrow applications and some devices/receivers that could work in certain building types. But generally GPS does not work inside buildings.)

But the iPhone also works off cell towers and WIFI for identifying your location. As we all know, that event was full of WIFI.

 

[daveschroeder]

But the iPhone also works off cell towers and WIFI for identifying your location. As we all know, that event was full of WIFI.

That wasn't what he was demoing, and yes, I am aware that the iPhone can also use cell towers and WiFi.

 

[Ori]

Didn't think my starting this threat would start a war, but here is what I can read from it.

SDK just won't allow any sat nav software at the moment
We don't know why that is.

Most people would like there to be some sat nav software, and I can vouch that all my blackberrys telenav used to work really well and I didn't even have it mounted on the dash. I even had it in the drivers side door pocket and it was still receiving the signal loud and clear. Unless they have really put in a a rubbish GPS chip set and antenna then there is no reason for it not to work.

While I agree that telenav is not a solution as it needs to download maps from the web, it is a start!!! I was using it as my only sat nav system on GPRS...not even edge and was having no issues getting to the places I wanted. The Iphone can go 1 better with proper sat nav, but for reasons unknown to us......they won't.

I will say that the only thing with the telenav system is that when I got a phone call the sat nav stopped. With 3G that wouldn't be the case, but obviously on the Iphone with the lack of multi tasking it still would be.....work around possible though?

My little blackberry had just as many antannas as the iphone (one less maybe?) and was smaller and yet still managed to get all the signals just fine.

We deserve better from Apple is all that I am saying.

 

[Donz0r]

Didn't think my starting this threat would start a war, but here is what I can read from it.

SDK just won't allow any sat nav software at the moment
We don't know why that is.

Most people would like there to be some sat nav software, and I can vouch that all my blackberrys telenav used to work really well and I didn't even have it mounted on the dash. I even had it in the drivers side door pocket and it was still receiving the signal loud and clear. Unless they have really put in a a rubbish GPS chip set and antenna then there is no reason for it not to work.

While I agree that telenav is not a solution as it needs to download maps from the web, it is a start!!! I was using it as my only sat nav system on GPRS...not even edge and was having no issues getting to the places I wanted. The Iphone can go 1 better with proper sat nav, but for reasons unknown to us......they won't.

I will say that the only thing with the telenav system is that when I got a phone call the sat nav stopped. With 3G that wouldn't be the case, but obviously on the Iphone with the lack of multi tasking it still would be.....work around possible though?

My little blackberry had just as many antannas as the iphone (one less maybe?) and was smaller and yet still managed to get all the signals just fine.

We deserve better from Apple is all that I am saying.

Agreed, SatNav functionality is Expected by everyone b/c of the GPS announcement, Apple better deliver.

 

[crees!]

8130 Curve

Didn't Steve Jobs triangulate in seconds at WWDC, inside a large building? or was that pre-recorded? I'd check but i can't view Quicktime here at work.

I agree, the iPhone is definitly capable of turn by turn, the one guy on this forum reviewing it said that the GPS was incredibly accurate, he WALKED half a block and it tracked him very precisely

The phone my co-worker has is the Blackberry Curve 8130.