GPS not good enough for turn by turn??

[RetiredInFl]

Then explain the size of the antenna in this: http://freedominput.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=81 The whole device is 1.2" x 1.8". I don't see how accuracy can be effected by SIZE. If the raw data is there, it's there. This GPS is as accurate as the $500 TomTom I have.

I said that the antenna is too SMALL. Dedicated GPS devices are designed to maximize reception: big antenna, carefully placed, etc.

As Apple's engineer explained it to me, there's too much else going on inside the iPhone (Wi-Fi, multitouch screen, 10 radios, etc.) to do much more than slip in a sliver of a GPS circuit, so it will never have the accuracy necessary for turn-by-turn directions.

--Pogue

 

[daveschroeder]

Yes, because the NYT has never embellished a story, am I right?

The quote about it being too small doesn't make sense. Either the GPS gets your location or it doesn't. If it gets your location, then accurate maps will allow you to do turn by turn.

LOL. Nice off-point jab at NYT. Pogue is reporting the information EXACTLY as Apple told him. There is no need or incentive to embellish anything.

Also, the antenna size issue makes perfect sense. The larger and more gain the antenna has, the easier and quicker it will be able to get and maintain a fix, and in worse conditions, in cars under windshields, etc.

And if you'll look above, Pogue himself responded, reiterating what Apple told him directly. Take it or leave it. If you want to believe Apple is lying just to purposely cripple GPS to tick you off personally, knock yourself out, by all means.

 

[daveschroeder]

Then explain the size of the antenna in this: http://freedominput.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=81 The whole device is 1.2" x 1.8". I don't see how accuracy can be effected by SIZE. If the raw data is there, it's there. This GPS is as accurate as the $500 TomTom I have.

What, because the size of the enclosure MUST determine the proportional size of the antenna?

Let's use at least a bit of common sense here.

Also, your statement, "If the raw data is there, it's there," illustrates that you have no idea about how GPS devices obtain and maintain a GPS fix, and how differing conditions, such as device design, casing, shielding, antenna placement, use in a vehicle, etc., can greatly affect things...

 

[Stuart in Oz]

If it is never going to do real time nav then it isn't nearly the phone that was promised. It is the iPhone 3G with GPS. To me, the average Jo, as soon as I heard 'GPS' I though 'Great - now I don't need to buy a TomTom as well as an iPhone'.

To 90% of the general public, the phrase 'GPS' is visualised as real-time nav. They might well come around to all the LBS that will grow over the next few years but there's going to be a lot of disappointed people when they find out that when Apple says 'GPS' they don't mean what everyone does.

I know Apple never promised real-time navigation but they have been promoting a term that has an accepted meaning - and now they are trying to say that a lesser product still qualifies for that term. It's the sort of thing that really annoys Jo Public.

 

[t0mat0]

<snip>

"What is Pogue talking about there will never be a turn by turn GPS because of the antenna not being visible? "

That's not what I wrote.

I said that the antenna is too SMALL. Dedicated GPS devices are designed to maximize reception: big antenna, carefully placed, etc.

As Apple's engineer explained it to me, there's too much else going on inside the iPhone (Wi-Fi, multitouch screen, 10 radios, etc.) to do much more than slip in a sliver of a GPS circuit, so it will never have the accuracy necessary for turn-by-turn directions.

--Pogue

As opposed to the
- N95
- BlackBerry Curve, 8800
- Xda

2 of which, on O2's website are quoted as being able to do turn-by-turn voice or "turn by turn voice instructions".

But at least he clarified, and we get to know it was coming from a valid source.

 

[Van Wildonher]

If the GPS sucks in this phone I won't even look at buying the next version of the iPhone.

 

[bacaramac]

I still think, even if there is an issue with the size, good software could compensate enough to make if VERY useful. I just can't imagine that the GPS antenna wouldn't be able to keep some sort of signal (atleast enough to guide you). Why would Apple talk about following you on a map if it wasn't possible to use it. See my post above, good software relies on the fact that you follow the route, it may just take the software longer to understand you took a wrong turn as compared to TomTom, etc.

I am more then willing to live with a few mistakes here and there as with most phones this wouldn't even be an option. My buddy had the Touch Cruise with a crappy GPS antenna and he used TomTom 6 on it with now problem. His phone wouldn't even pick-up one satellite unless he was outside (in a cradle on his front windshield).

 

[daveschroeder]

I still think, even if there is an issue with the size, good software could compensate enough to make if VERY useful. I just can't imagine that the GPS antenna wouldn't be able to keep some sort of signal (atleast enough to guide you). Why would Apple talk about following you on a map if it wasn't possible to use it. See my post above, good software relies on the fact that you follow the route, it may just take the software longer to understand you took a wrong turn as compared to TomTom, etc.

I am more then willing to live with a few mistakes here and there as with most phones this wouldn't even be an option. My buddy had the Touch Cruise with a crappy GPS antenna and he used TomTom 6 on it with now problem. His phone wouldn't even pick-up one satellite unless he was outside (in a cradle on his front windshield).

This is all moot as long as Apple prohibits applications that provide "real time route guidance", isn't it?

 

[bacaramac]

This is all moot as long as Apple prohibits applications that provide "real time route guidance", isn't it?

Ok, maybe I missed something, but I thought the restriction was from using the Google Maps app and not standalone maps. I thought I read all four pages correctly, but I could be wrong.

 

[daveschroeder]

Ok, maybe I missed something, but I thought the restriction was from using the Google Maps app and not standalone maps. I thought I read all four pages correctly, but I could be wrong.

No, it's not just Google Maps.

Apple's iPhone SDK license says "Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance [...]". We can assume this means they would not approve such apps for the App Store. And no, the hacking/jailbreaking community isn't large enough to support a commercial, quality, reliable vehicle navigation system for iPhone.

 

[RetiredInFl]

Well, if all this crap I have been reading is true (and we really won't know until Friday) I made a huge mistake selling my BB Curve. In either case I'm going to get the 3G next week and consider it a "30 day loaner" from AT&T and on day 29 back it goes with hopes the BB Bold has been relased.

 

[frosse]

Well, if all this crap I have been reading is true (and we really won't know until Friday) I made a huge mistake selling my BB Curve. In either case I'm going to get the 3G next week and consider it a "30 day loaner" from AT&T and on day 29 back it goes with hopes the BB Bold has been relased.

Are you basing your whole purchase on GPS features such as turn by turn?

And your jumping in bed with BB too, dear god.

 

[LiveForever]

I watched the Keynote go and look for yourself ) and they demoed the GPS by showing a car driving along that twisty steep street in San Francisco. You could see the blue flashing dot zigg zagging on the map quite clearly. Steve Jobs said "isn't that cool" . That's what I saw so I don't know what he's talking about.

 

[sjo]

I watched the Keynote go and look for yourself ) and they demoed the GPS by showing a car driving along that twisty steep street in San Francisco. You could see the blue flashing dot zigg zagging on the map quite clearly. Steve Jobs said "isn't that cool" . That's what I saw so I don't know what he's talking about.

you should really learn to take everything steve says during his keynotes with a grain of salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field) admittedly the iphone 3g introduction was exceptionally misleading.

 

[Kadman]

In the end, I think if your expectations are to use the GPS in the iPhone to find out just where that coffee shop is you just looked up as you walk around downtown, your needs will be met. If your expectations were to use this as you fly to different cities, hop in a rental car, and expect to have your trusty iPhone safely guide you as you drive around an unfamiliar city, I think you will be sorely disappointed.

 

[kdarling]

I watched the Keynote go and look for yourself ) and they demoed the GPS by showing a car driving along that twisty steep street in San Francisco. .

<grin> Did he say it was a car? Or did we assume it? Could it have been a person going down Lombard Street, running or sped up?

As someone else commented, we should always read closely anything Jobs (or Apple) says. He/they are very clever at combining phrases together in such a way that the casual (or excited) reader will think it means something more.

For example, the iPhone website section about how you can get a list of turn by turn directions OR view a moving dot, which people naively read as being a navigation app. (I notice Apple has changed the wording now.)

Also be wary of any phrase with "best ever" in it. They usually just mean "best ever" for an Apple product. They include a piece of truth, but rarely the whole truth.

 

[frosse]

<grin> Did he say it was a car? Or could it have been a person going down Lombard Street, running or sped up?

As someone else commented, you should NEVER take anything Jobs (or Apple) says without reading closely. He/they are very clever at combining totally separate phrases together in such a way that the casual (or excited) reader will think it means something more.

For example, the iPhone website section about how you can get a list of turn by turn directions OR view a moving dot, which people naively read as being a navigation app. (I notice Apple has changed the wording now.)

Also be wary of any phrase with "best ever" in it. They usually just mean "best ever" for an Apple product. They tell the truth, but rarely the whole truth.

He had to run real fast to pass lombard street that fast, an zig zag too.

 

[t0mat0]

Turn by turn v2:

As currently Google Maps can't currently do turn by turn constant live tracking of position, and Apple doesn't want that currently with it's SDK - A work around

Google can show each turn in the text. If your route is Steet Viewed, why not mash it up so you stream that visual data, either the whole route, or just near the turns, then have a picutre of the next turn showing, so you know what it looks like, and a clear big text info of what to do at that turn?

Then you could have a next turn button or something.

 

[kdarling]

As currently Google Maps can't currently do turn by turn constant live tracking of position, and Apple doesn't want that currently with it's SDK - A work around

Tom, it's a great idea, but you keep forgetting that the Google Maps API agreement is worded almost the same as the Apple one: no turn by turn navigation apps can be created.

TomTom / TeleAtlas and Nokia / NavTeq just aren't going to let that happen.

 

[bbplayer5]

I cant believe this is a discussion still. TomTom and Garmin will have turn by turn on the phone. Just because the connection isnt perfect, doesnt mean software cant be written to compensate. Predictive software based on your present speed, updating every few seconds to see if you changed speed.

 

[t0mat0]

Tom, it's a great idea, but you keep forgetting that the Google Maps API agreement is worded almost the same as the Apple one: no turn by turn navigation apps can be created.

TomTom / TeleAtlas and Nokia / NavTeq just aren't going to let that happen.

True... but what's to stop someone not making an app, but instead a webpage mashup?
Bbplayer makes the very valid point - this thing has accelerometers that can poll at every 500th of a second or so. It couldpresumably do speed pretty well, and also direction. (though no compass - booo!)

So it could interpolate, or guess if the signal dropped out. As we know, the snap to road could work out the rest. Would stop the movement on Google Maps from being so jerky.

 

[frosse]

I cant believe this is a discussion still. TomTom and Garmin will have turn by turn on the phone. Just because the connection isnt perfect, doesnt mean software cant be written to compensate. Predictive software based on your present speed, updating every few seconds to see if you changed speed.

I cant believe you havent read the thread. Turn by turn or not, doesnt matter if no one is allowed to make the damn app.

 

[kdarling]

He had to run real fast to pass lombard street that fast, an zig zag too.

If you've ever driven Lombard, you know you can only go about 3 mph.

For all we know, the GPS demo was done on a bicycle.

Cheers, Kev

 

[TheMadBrewer]

No, it's not just Google Maps.

Apple's iPhone SDK license says "Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance [...]". We can assume this means they would not approve such apps for the App Store. And no, the hacking/jailbreaking community isn't large enough to support a commercial, quality, reliable vehicle navigation system for iPhone.

Back when I had Sprint they charged extra if you wanted driving direction on your phone. When I read about the restrictions on the iPhone SDK I just figured that was part of the agreement they had with AT&T -- at some point we'll be offered an option for driving directions for a monthly fee.

I also figured that is why they went to a plastic case - better reception for the GPS.

 

[bbplayer5]

I cant believe you havent read the thread. Turn by turn or not, doesnt matter if no one is allowed to make the damn app.

They cant make the damn app for the app store, but you can add apps from the internet into itunes and sync it.

you really think apple is going to pass this one up?