Graphic Design Teacher a MORON

[CompUser]

I would like to thank everyone for their comments, both short and long and this afternoon I might make some changes. However, right now I am all PhotoShopped Out.

 

[AppleMatt]

Your work so far is very good, but it's just not quite there yet. The idea and the layout are for the most part fine.

Please listen to what has been said about white space and the text, as-well as balancing the items on the page. Don't be afraid of spreading it out a little. Also consider a different font - I agree with you about the blue/green however that font is too stressing on the eyes to read with a dark background.

As an example the comparison page is very cramped, there's no room between the title and the table, and the table is a massive block of information that's hard to digest. Take a look at the list of items here. What do you notice, are there any table lines? What about the use of indentation and font styles? Are the headings seperated from the items? Basically, look at what you consider to be good layouts and ask yourself what makes them good.
You could reduce the weight of the table with a paragraph saying 'All models feature 8 air bags, tyre pressure monitoring... ...as standard'. Then the table can be used to highlight why the supercharged is that much better than the base model - to convince people to buy the better one. It will also give you a lot more room to play with.

At the moment it's good. With a few minor alterations it could be excellent. Once again, please take the advice that's been offered so far - after all, these people do it for a living

AppleMatt
edit: Also I'd consider changing the 'Quick Specs' title to something a little more professional such as 'Model Overview' etc etc

 

[CompUser]

Your work so far is very good, but it's just not quite there yet. The idea and the layout are for the most part fine.

Please listen to what has been said about white space and the text, as-well as balancing the items on the page. Don't be afraid of spreading it out a little. Also consider a different font - I agree with you about the blue/green however that font is too stressing on the eyes to read with a dark background.

As an example the comparison page is very cramped, there's no room between the title and the table, and the table is a massive block of information that's hard to digest. Take a look at the list of items here. What do you notice, are there any table lines? What about the use of indentation and font styles? Are the headings seperated from the items? Basically, look at what you consider to be good layouts and ask yourself what makes them good.
You could reduce the weight of the table with a paragraph saying 'All models feature 8 air bags, tyre pressure monitoring... ...as standard'. Then the table can be used to highlight why the supercharged is that much better than the base model - to convince people to buy the better one. It will also give you a lot more room to play with.

At the moment it's good. With a few minor alterations it could be excellent. Once again, please take the advice that's been offered so far - after all, these people do it for a living

AppleMatt
edit: Also I'd consider changing the 'Quick Specs' title to something a little more professional such as 'Model Overview' etc etc

What would you suggest as a better front to use for the text?

 

[AppleMatt]

I don't really know what fonts you have available, but experiment with a more rounded one. Just as an exercise, take a screen shot of how it is now. Then change the font to Arial and take another screen shot. Compare them. Which seems easier on the eyes?

(I'm not saying to use Arial, that's just an example. Also stay away from any font that is named "font bold", "font narrow", "font black" etc - style it yourself)

AppleMatt

 

[Blue Velvet]

Also stay away from any font that is named "font bold", "font narrow", "font black" etc - style it yourself

In God's name, what exactly are you talking about? Family weights are there for a purpose.

 

[CompUser]

I just wanted to remind everyone that this is not a page facing bochure and it is being bound at the top, thus there is a lot of green at the top of the page.

I have yet to choose a font. I can't find anything that really fits.

What about Zapfino?

(^^^only a joke^^^)

 

[AppleMatt]

In God's name, what exactly are you talking about? Family weights are there for a purpose.

Personal opinion Blue Velvet, we are allowed them on a forum

AppleMatt

 

[Blue Velvet]

Personal opinion Blue Velvet, we are allowed them on a forum

Personal opinion maybe, but giving erroneous and highly subjective information as design gospel should be called on.

I'm just curious what typographic bible you're preaching from where a condensed or heavier weight of font is automatically a no-no.

 

[AppleMatt]

Personal opinion maybe, but giving erroneous and highly subjective information as design gospel should be called on.

I'm just curious what typographic bible you're preaching from where a condensed or heavier weight of font is automatically a no-no.

Woah, slow down. I'm not 'preaching' and at no point have I claimed to be offering 'design gospel'. I've offered my opinion, just like everyone else. If you read my posts you’ll notice that in the third sentence I recommend he take the advice of neildmitchell and CanadaRAM - both of whom share, but crucially have offered, considerable design expertise. Only one forum member knows my profession and no it’s not design, which I left at A-Level.

This project is a teaching exercise. More importantly, his school project. That is why I’ve tried to make him look at the problem and decide what would solve it. I don’t like those fonts and therefore I said so. I don’t like the cramped table or lack of white space, and I said so. In-fact my post was pretty long, and you've relentlessly picked up on one sentance.

Take a good look at your posts, Blue Velvet. Your argument is phrased as an attack, and a disproportionately weighted one at that. In your free time please learn some etiquette (or at least tact). Well done, you have design experience. Once you’ve clipped on all of your medals perhaps you’d like to offer him some advice instead of sniping at those who did bother.

AppleMatt
edit: Constructive idea - how about opening up your typographic bibles and suggesting a font? That's the latest problem he is tackling.

 

[CanadaRAM]

I appreciate where BV is coming from -- there is a long, long history of practice in computer design where
named fonts = good
and
applying styles in the application to a font = bad / unpredictible / bound to give your printinghouse fits and/or spoil the job.

AppleMatt, you proposed a method radically different to the established practice as advice to a new designer, but haven't backed it up with any reasons why (yet) other than "personal opinion" which of course you're entitled to have on this forum.

However, your advice (as presented here) is equally entitled to be challenged by your peers.

So, to leave off the polemics and return to the topic, what reasons, AM, do you have for advising against established practice in font management for print design?


PS> I've been looking around the net and coming across some useful links
Mark Boulton Five Simple Steps to better typography He's a UK graphic designer, and he has a site with a journal full (and I mean FULL) of good observations

 

[doucy2]

Here are the front and back pages of my brochure:

(just a note, there are magains on the side so that it can be bound together)

this guy must be retarted
a pros work work be alot better especially if the worked for Land Rover
the blue and green would not be used together
wat is he thinking

Good work for a freshman, i applaud you

 

[obeygiant]

Here are the front and back pages of my brochure:

(just a note, there are magains on the side so that it can be bound together)

i can tell in an instant that hasnt been copied.
its too "clunky" to be professional.

 

[CompUser]

i can tell in an instant that hasnt been copied.
its too "clunky" to be professional.

Thanks

 

[Lau]

a pros work work be alot better especially if the worked for Land Rover

i can tell in an instant that hasnt been copied.
its too "clunky" to be professional.

Guys - c'mon. The poster's in high school. It's an accomplished piece of work for the level he's at. It may not be perfect, and he may have some stuff to learn, but many people have offered constructive criticism to help. However, I don't see how either of the above are helpful, they're just insulting.

CompUser - I agree that you should look at the text, and create some more space around it. However, it's much better than I would have done in high school. Good stuff! The blue and green is appropriate for a Land Rover brochure, in my opinion.

 

[doucy2]

Guys - c'mon. The poster's in high school. It's an accomplished piece of work for the level he's at. It may not be perfect, and he may have some stuff to learn, but many people have offered constructive criticism to help. However, I don't see how either of the above are helpful, they're just insulting.

CompUser - I agree that you should look at the text, and create some more space around it. However, it's much better than I would have done in high school. Good stuff! The blue and green is appropriate for a Land Rover brochure, in my opinion.

if you would have read the end the end of my post
if said that i applauded him for his work, because it is outstanding for a freshman
i didnt crap his work i just compared it to a pros

 

[CompUser]

I would like to say that the only thing I learned from that teacher was from 2 PageMaker tutorials we were required to do. He teaches us nothing about good design techniques.

 

[doucy2]

I would like to say that the only thing I learned from that teacher was from 2 PageMaker tutorials we were required to do. He teaches us nothing about good design techniques.

i get to take a Intro to webpage management cousre starting this winter
i hope it isnt a disaster like this one
wish me luck

 

[Blue Velvet]

...Take a good look at your posts, Blue Velvet. Your argument is phrased as an attack, and a disproportionately weighted one at that. In your free time please learn some etiquette (or at least tact). Well done, you have design experience. Once you’ve clipped on all of your medals perhaps you’d like to offer him some advice instead of sniping at those who did bother.

I'm sorry for treading on your toes and causing offence although your thin-skinned reaction is a perfect example of how not to respond to criticism in a design context.

Your initial statements about using type-styles were phrased as fact, not opinion -- and a misconception that is likely to cause considerable confusion and technical difficulties for those who would take them as useful advice.

I've been following this thread and I would never presume to publicly crit others work on this forum because it's too much like work which I have plenty of to do this weekend, much like I barely respond to other design threads that ask for help with design work (note: but I will often provide technical assistance where I can)...

As you can see, there are always plenty of others with opinions some of them incredibly condescending, but I'm perfectly entitled to question the validity of technical advice particularly when it is completely erroneous and misleading.

There's a world of difference between a subjective opinion based on the aesthetics of design, and a technical statement delivered as fact without any qualifiers at all.

Furthermore, at no point have you acknowledged the error of your initial statement and instead have tried to twist my response into some kind of personal vendetta against you.

Although I may be busy 'clipping on my medals' as you put it, I suggest that you also spend a little time brushing off those chips on your shoulder.

*shrug*

 

[AppleMatt]

I AppleMatt appreciate that in a design context using font families is a good idea, clearly a font artist spent hours creating them for a good reason. I was wrong to suggest against using them without validating my statement as an opinion.

My issue wasn't against you or your knowledge (I don’t think we’ve crossed paths before…), it was about how you handled it. You questioned the original statement (which of course you’re entitled to do, although I would have phrased it differently) and I responded that it was opinion, which should have cleared it up. However you decided to continue??? There's no need to phrase it in the ways you did, which are insults (including the last post!) – and saying ‘thin-skinned’ as an excuse for rudeness just doesn’t cut it, sorry. The fact that you can get that daily in the 'design world' (condescending indeed) is irrelevant and means nothing to me - I get sworn at and attacked most days at work, it doesn't mean that when someone says something inaccurate I go for them.

In future, if you’re going to pick me up on a point, would you consider firstly addressing me with some respect and secondly clarifying your position.


To address your points CanadaRAM:
- I’ve no issue with people challenging what I say. Not only have you challenged it, you explained the reasons behind your position, all in a polite fashion. Bravo, challenge away.
- When BV challenged I immediately clarified that my position was opinion, further to that it’s hardly controversial to defend my position.
- My reasons were, briefly:
1) Yes, I don’t like them. Or that is, the ones I’ve come across in the things that I’ve done.
2) This is a teaching project; it’s more beneficial to let this chap learn himself. If you hold someone’s hand through a project yes they’re going to make a fantastic piece, but they’re going to learn very little themselves and a year later it's all gone. I don’t think at this level he’s going to be worried about client deadlines and agitated printers. This of course isn’t just in relation to what I said about the font, it’s about everything I said.


Sorry for hijacking your thread CompUser, it’s very inconsiderate. How’s the project coming along?

AppleMatt
Do I get an award for longest reply ever?

 

[sford]

Have you thought of contacting Land Rover's Press department -- tell them nicely what you are doing and ask them if they would look at your work, and comment on weather it was done by them or one of thier agencies. If they reply to you, you could then forward thier reply to your art teacher, and explain to him/her what slander is and why a teacher should be carefull about making accussations before he/she has facts.

I think you did a great job and I'm sorry your teacher was such a putz.

 

[CanadaRAM]

- My reasons were, briefly:
1) Yes, I don’t like them. Or that is, the ones I’ve come across in the things that I’ve done.
2) This is a teaching project; it’s more beneficial to let this chap learn himself. If you hold someone’s hand through a project yes they’re going to make a fantastic piece, but they’re going to learn very little themselves and a year later it's all gone. I don’t think at this level he’s going to be worried about client deadlines and agitated printers. This of course isn’t just in relation to what I said about the font, it’s about everything I said.

If I understand it then, your reason for advising the OP to not use named fonts (Fontname Bold or Fontname Narrow -- separate Postscript or TT files of a font that have been crafted specifically for use as a bold or narrow version)

as opposed to

using the general version of that font (Fontname or Fontname Regular) and applying bolding or width alteration through the Style or Character menu of the application (which either, selects the same font variation above, or mathematically distorts the font to approximate a bold or narrow version, depending on the individual application)

was that you don't like them?

 

[CompUser]

O.M.G. STP fighting about fonts

hahah

 

[Vader]

Here are pages 2 and 3 of the brochure.

For the table, I gathered info from Land Rovers website, and put information together. He also was convinced I didn't write the 2 paragraphs (which is even that well written, I took about 3 min to write it). There are about 12 pages in total, most of which are informational and then there are 4 pages that have pictures of the interior and exterior colors available.

In 7th grade I knew more about PowerPoint than the computer teacher. She even admitted it. She was the person who switched me to apple though.

Okay, didn't realize the pamphlet had more pages.

 

[doucy2]

worring about the fonts right now is beond the point of this thread
this is good for for the kid
he probally will become very sucessful in the future at the rate he is going

 

[AppleMatt]

CanadaRAM,
Yes. Bearing in mind that there are a heck of a lot more manipulative effects that you can apply other than...bold. Once again this is a teaching project, and from his posts it appears to be as much of a computing lesson as a design lesson. I at no point have said that people should never use them, that they're useless, that they're pointless in design, that I'm a professional designer giving advice from my books, that professional designers never use them - this was all BV's extrapolation. All I said was...style the text yourself. Shocking I know.

I'm getting fed up of 'defending' this, when my actual issue was with BV's handling. I really don't care about it enough to keep replying, and either-way it's rude to destroy this lads thread over such a stupid thing. Perhaps in future I should put references in my posts, is Harvard style ok?!

AppleMatt