'Green Bubbles and Blue Bubbles Want to Be Together' Says Samsung Ad Pushing Apple to Adopt RCS

[v3rlon]

Why is everyone so against rcs on here? All it would do is improve the texting experience with android users… it wouldn’t hurt current user experience in any way. It might get some people to leave iOS if they don’t feel locked in anymore, which I get from apple’s standpoint, but that’s a pretty bad reason from a consumer perspective.

I’d love to be able to send full quality pics and videos in my family and friend group chats. “Just use WhatsApp/telegram/signal/instagram/messenger” nah. I could, but I don’t like my chats living all over the place, and I can’t align my family and friends all on 1 platform.

Editing to add that yeah, google’s implementation is the main one rn, but there’s nothing stopping apple from doing it themselves or working with google/samsung/carriers to implement something universal that doesn’t give google access to chats. That said, pretty sure E2E encryption is already a feature in RCS (ok more research, google has added e2e encryption in their implementation, nothing is stopping anybody else from doing the same, though).

Apple gets to stay out of the conversation because of the iMessage dominance/lock in, but do we really want that? I think more choice is always better. Especially when our messages with android peeps default to sms/mms, protocols that aren’t private or safe. Idk. I think in 2023 we should have a better fallback than sms.

It isn't that we are for Apple dominance. It is that Google has proven time and again to be on the wrong side of privacy. They have literally sued for the right to invade your privacy. They tried to get a court order to circumvent Apple's 'do not track me' in Safari. How many times do they have to pull stunts like this before people believe that Google is not a good actor.

Samsung smart TVs once came up with great idea. What if they placed ads in the content you own? So there you are watching home movies that you filmed, and there is some crappy hemorrhoid commercial in the middle of your kid's piano recital. Do you like that?
Well you could opt out. There is a screen during setup "Would you like us to put ads in your content? Yes No" Then the next screen says "Regardless of whether you clicked yes or no on the previous screen, you understand that you agree we can put ads in your content. Ok."
Does that sound like someone you want reading your messages or metadata? Does that sound like someone you could trust to not be reading your messages even when they claim not to be? Does ANYONE want ads added into their programming that they created or paid for in order to not have ads? To take a page from Samsung, no matter how you answer the above three questions, by reading this, you agree that the answer is a resounding "NO!"

 

[FindingAvalon]

I can't see any way of Apple supporting (Google's) RCS without a very awkward UX implementation, or seriously damaging their privacy commitments.

If I'm in an iMessage group chat with 5 friends and one of them wants to invite another (Google RCS) friend, instantly that chat becomes available to Google. So what does Apple do? Warn all users (similar to an insecure HTTP connection)? Should a "voting" UI pop-up, needing an unanimous decision before they're allowed in? An Apple disclaimer that their privacy commitments no longer apply?

No thanks. I'd rather continue using a combination of iMessage and Whatsapp.

That’s not how it works. In your scenario the guy with the Android phone would be using telephony based RCS.

 

[ericthered926]

Not if you're into Apple's ecosystem. We're a minority under attack from EU, Google, Spotify, Samsung, Meta, Amazon and others.

We have nothing to gain by making Android better.

I’m curious how you feel it as an attack. Has your Apple ecosystem experience gotten worse? I’ve had quite the opposite experience you’re implying. I don’t see it as an attack from the consumer’s perspective. Less competition and bad interoperability make for worse products just from a usability standpoint. I’ve personally seen nothing but benefit from the EU regulations.

From a company’s perspective, sure, but I think it would be dope if I could, say, nearby share files to my gaming pc or photos to my android friends. Loving usb c on my iPhone. Loving using any kind of gaming controller working with my phone/ipad/mac. Loving right to repair laws! More options and industry standards don’t necessarily make for a worse user experience. If anything, imo they’re making things better for everyone.

I get why companies and investors fight that, they want to maintain a competitive advantage, but removing some of those barriers makes the market more competitive for consumers and gives us better products, which I think is great. Speaking for myself as someone fully invested in the ecosystem. Would love if my apple devices played a little better with the few non-apple devices I do have.

 

[Siliconguy]

If I send a message and the recipient is green you can bet your $5 shoe that person is off my contact list. I don't associate with non-apple users via text. You're not smart enough to use Signal or even that garbage called WhatsApp then bye. It's really that simple.

My flip phone only does SMS, and my iPad doesn't do cellular. I'm safe from you. 😛

 

[ericthered926]

It isn't that we are for Apple dominance. It is that Google has proven time and again to be on the wrong side of privacy. They have literally sued for the right to invade your privacy. They tried to get a court order to circumvent Apple's 'do not track me' in Safari. How many times do they have to pull stunts like this before people believe that Google is not a good actor.

Samsung smart TVs once came up with great idea. What if they placed ads in the content you own? So there you are watching home movies that you filmed, and there is some crappy hemorrhoid commercial in the middle of your kid's piano recital. Do you like that?
Well you could opt out. There is a screen during setup "Would you like us to put ads in your content? Yes No" Then the next screen says "Regardless of whether you clicked yes or no on the previous screen, you understand that you agree we can put ads in your content. Ok."
Does that sound like someone you want reading your messages or metadata? Does that sound like someone you could trust to not be reading your messages even when they claim not to be? Does ANYONE want ads added into their programming that they created or paid for in order to not have ads? To take a page from Samsung, no matter how you answer the above three questions, by reading this, you agree that the answer is a resounding "NO!"

I’ve already addressed the Google side of things here plenty. I agree completely.

 

[kc9hzn]

RCS's problems aside, I don't see any reason for Apple to not incorporate newer messaging technology for their phones. They don't need to necessarily make RCS messages blue, but there's no reason not to at least support it.

Well, really, RCS is a 15 year old standard that never got any adoption until Google decided to seize on it as a solution to the mess they made around messaging on Android. (And any modern features Google added are only available in their proprietary version of RCS*.) We need a legitimate modern standard.

* Which leads me to think that Google’s end goal is controlling messaging on all phones. If you want legit modern features, you have to use Google’s proprietary version of RCS. Maybe their goal is regulatory pressure to force Apple to adopt Google’s version of RCS? It wouldn’t be out of character for them and would be a page right out of Microsoft’s old Embrace-Extend-Extinguish playbook.

Anyway, whenever the forced meme of RCS comes back up, people point out why it’s basically a non-starter (besides, because RCS was stillborn for the longest time and because of carriers’ charging for text messages, over the top messaging became the cross platform norm, and I don’t think you can really force a change in user behavior at this point). But Google keeps on bringing it back instead of creating a truly competitive and compelling messaging environment that they could roll out on Android and iOS (mostly because it seems like the carriers have Google over a barrel on this one, Google wants to keep them happy instead of satisfying their users).

 

[sunman42]

its Samsung...those who made the Bixby button, that badaOS and those burn-in oled panels

But some of their past phones have been really hot.... like, on fire, man!

 

[jntdroid]

RCS's problems aside, I don't see any reason for Apple to not incorporate newer messaging technology for their phones. They don't need to necessarily make RCS messages blue, but there's no reason not to at least support it.

Right. They can leave it green and still improve the experience for iPhone users, plus increase security for "green" messages, too.

RCS won't be superior to the iMessage experience; it will be superior to SMS. So iMessage will still attract Android users if they want the full experience.

 

[HMI]

NO, NO, NO!

Should blue and green unite?
Let us discuss this.

 

[zach-coleman]

I’m curious how you feel it as an attack. Has your Apple ecosystem experience gotten worse? I’ve had quite the opposite experience you’re implying. I don’t see it as an attack from the consumer’s perspective. Less competition and bad interoperability make for worse products just from a usability standpoint. I’ve personally seen nothing but benefit from the EU regulations.

From a company’s perspective, sure, but I think it would be dope if I could, say, nearby share files to my gaming pc or photos to my android friends. Loving usb c on my iPhone. Loving using any kind of gaming controller working with my phone/ipad/mac. Loving right to repair laws! More options and industry standards don’t necessarily make for a worse user experience. If anything, imo they’re making things better for everyone.

I get why companies and investors fight that, they want to maintain a competitive advantage, but removing some of those barriers makes the market more competitive for consumers and gives us better products, which I think is great. Speaking for myself as someone fully invested in the ecosystem. Would love if my apple devices played a little better with the few non-apple devices I do have.

The only bad EU tech legislation so far has been the cookies one. Completely botched and made the internet far worse for everyone from a usability standpoint. Should have mandated a way to tie your preferences into browser settings.

 

[akeita]

Android has a much bigger market share. If interoperability is really that much of a concern, iPhone users would push Apple for it, or move to Android.

But iPhone users aren't asking for it. Or at least not enough iPhone users are asking for it.

As for people who feel inferior about the green bubble, I really can't help them. I have no idea why other people's feelings are my concern.

 

[jntdroid]

I just enjoy how mad it makes people who buy an Android.

It’s like people who buy a massive SUV and then complain about gas prices. You knew what you were signing up for and now are mad that this obvious consequence to your actions exists?

Don't act like it doesn't frustrate iPhone users as well - especially if it's someone who switched from iPhone to Android and blew up all of the group threads...

 

[kc9hzn]

I say it. The poor communication between Android and iPhone goes both ways, it's as frustrating for the iPhone user to chat with an Android user than the other way around. I'm not advocating for feature parity, but in 2023 I should be able to have E2E encrypted communications or remove someone from a group with an Android user. Your point about monopoly is fair, but that doesn't mean that the experience *should* stay bad on iMessages

Yeah, but standard RCS doesn’t actually have E2E encryption. Someone points it out whenever the topic of RCS comes up. Google’s proprietary, non-compliant, non-interoperable version of RCS does have E2E encryption, but then you have to let Google control your messaging stack to get it.

Plus, RCS is still hot garbage for multi-device scenarios (like syncing messages between iPhone and iPad, or sending messages from non-SIM enabled devices). No carrier based approach is going to be able to handle messaging for non-SIM devices, so over the top approaches are the only ones that make sense these days.

 

[ericthered926]

This is a pointless and misleading comment, Google is not asking Apple to implement the vanilla version of the RCS protocol, that was developed by GSMA. They want Apple to implement the Google version of RCS.

Don’t try to make it seem like this is a fight with Apple to adopt an open protocol, because it is not.

If Apple adopts the open protocol, there are no security features, so what benefit is there to just plain old SMS, which is already there. And when everybody created their own RCS flavor, like the carriers did, they couldn’t talk to each other.

Read my other responses to you. I have addressed all of the above and you are selectively ignoring parts, backing me into a black and white corner over assumptions I have refuted. I agree with the main point you’re trying to make, but you’re ignoring a big piece of the puzzle.

 

[sack_peak]

Android has a much bigger market share. If interoperability is really that much of a concern, iPhone users would push Apple for it, or move to Android.

But iPhone users aren't asking for it. Or at least not enough iPhone users are asking for it.

As for people who feel inferior about the green bubble, I really can't help them. I have no idea why other people's feelings are my concern.

Only pro-Google iPhone nerds want RCS.

From what I understand RCS will negatively impact apps like WhatApp, WeChat and Viber.

 

[boss.king]

Android has a much bigger market share. If interoperability is really that much of a concern, iPhone users would push Apple for it, or move to Android.

But iPhone users aren't asking for it. Or at least not enough iPhone users are asking for it.

As for people who feel inferior about the green bubble, I really can't help them. I have no idea why other people's feelings are my concern.

iPhone users are asking for it. You might not be, but you don't speak for every iPhone user.

 

[marzbarz]

I mean, sure, but that seems like a far less likely option to me.

sorry, but apple collaborating with google on rcs is *far less likely* than apple releasing iMessage/FaceTime. there is more evidence of this statement simply because it's objectively true that apple prefers control over their own services than giving up control to google.

I'm sure Craig mentioned he doesn't want iMessage on android, but that never stopped apple from changing their minds constantly.

The user doesn’t have to understand it. Users don’t understand how sms or iMessage work, why are we suddenly concerned with their understanding of RCS. If implemented correctly, they shouldn’t notice a difference from falling back to sms, except that a lot more of their iMessage features will now work with green bubbles.

wishful thinking. google doesn't exist in china. so how will xyz feature work that relied on google's backend when a user is in china?

also, last I checked, iMessage is one of the few, if not, the only messaging app approved for end to end encryption in china.

 

[chouseworth]

Samsung today joined Google in attempting to convince Apple to adopt the Rich Communication Services or RCS messaging standard that Google has been …

I always prioritize my blue bubbles first……..

 

[boss.king]

sorry, but apple collaborating with google on rcs is *far less likely* than apple releasing iMessage/FaceTime. there is more evidence of this statement simply because it's objectively true that apple prefers control over their own services than giving up control to google.

You know that if Apple collaborated on a standard, they'd still have control over its implementation, right? Look at USB C, they helped establish that standard and now use it everywhere. No one is suggesting they should give up control to Google.

wishful thinking. google doesn't exist in china. so how will xyz feature work that relied on google's backend when a user is in china?

This has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[ericthered926]

The only bad EU tech legislation so far has been the cookies one. Completely botched and made the internet far worse for everyone from a usability standpoint. Should have mandated a way to tie your preferences into browser settings.

Really loving AdGuard and Ublock Origin to get around this haha

 

[jntdroid]

Android has a much bigger market share. If interoperability is really that much of a concern, iPhone users would push Apple for it, or move to Android.

But iPhone users aren't asking for it. Or at least not enough iPhone users are asking for it.

As for people who feel inferior about the green bubble, I really can't help them. I have no idea why other people's feelings are my concern.

That's because the only country in the world (I believe?) where this is really a problem is the United States because Apple has such a large marketshare here and SMS is still a thing. In other parts of the world, it's all WhatsApp or whatever chat app took over SMS years ago.

 

[kc9hzn]

Google’s default implementation is encrypted out the box now. It’s an evolving standard and I’d say the fragmentation everyone is complaining about is due to a very large, influential player in the phone industry refusing to engage in a productive way. They don’t have to, but the end result is fragmented RCS and green messages being unencrypted and fully visible to our carriers.

But Google’s default implementation is a proprietary extension to RCS, it’s not available to others unless they directly license Google’s RCS service. And it’s hodge-podged on top of RCS instead of being implemented in any sort of interoperable way. Google RCS is not RCS any more than JScript was JavaScript.

 

[verdi1987]

It's so shocking how people here are genuinely opposed to better interactions between iPhones and Androids. I don't understand that. SMS is terribly limited and outdated, and not E2E encrypted. And it's not like Androids are going away, so why keep the experience this bad on iMessages?

Not that I think this ad campaign will have any effect on Apple at all, but that doesn't mean that Apple should do nothing on improving communication standards on iPhone

Studies have shown that people are resistant to switching to Android due to green bubbles. Also, nearly 90% of teens use iPhone, also due to iMessage.

Apple believes there is a market advantage to limiting rich messaging to iMessage. I suppose they could support RCS but keep it green, and maybe there wouldn’t be significant defection if Apple supported RCS.

Ugh, Green Bubbles! Apple’s iMessage Makes Switching to Android Hard

Apple has erected some high walls around its iPhone users. Those who wish to leave iOS have to do some climbing, and moving out of the iMessage ecosystem takes several steps.

www.wsj.com

Why Apple’s iMessage Is Winning: Teens Dread the Green Text Bubble

The iPhone maker cultivated iMessage as a must-have blue-bubble texting tool for teens. Android users trigger a just-a-little-less-cool green bubble: “Ew, that’s gross.”

www.wsj.com

 

[jntdroid]

Studies have shown that people are resistant to switching to Android due to green bubbles. Also, nearly 90% of teens use iPhone, also due to iMessage.

Is that the case outside of the US, I wonder?

Apple believes there is a market advantage to limiting rich messaging to iMessage. I suppose they could support RCS but keep it green, and maybe there wouldn’t be significant defection if Apple supported RCS.

Exactly.

 

[kc9hzn]

Fine, implement RCS at the telecom level then. Every current implementation goes through Google’s servers because they made a deal so the telecom doesn’t shoulder the infrastructure burden.

You can’t be for an “open” standard but just rely on Google’s “goodwill” to pipe everything through them. That’s a nonstarter.

If all the carriers are licensing Google’s implementation, then that means that Google did the old embrace-extend-extinguish trick and that “standards based RCS” simply doesn’t exist. (It also means that adopting RCS in any meaningful form on iOS would require licensing it from Google.)