Gruber: Apple TV is Sold at Cost, HomePod at Slight Loss

Discussion in 'MacRumors.com News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #526
    Which is different than recycling. At some point, the computer reaches EOL and is either trashed or recycled. I would argue that given the overall reliability of today's machines most are trouble free until EOL anyway so the repair design is not an issue. The main issue is battery life, IMHO, but even then by the time I have had a Mac whose battery was dead it was well past its ability to run the latest software. Even so, they could be replaced fairly cheaply by Apple if I wanted to.
    YMMV.

    Apple trades off upgradability for design, and is IMHO the right trade off given only a very tiny fraction of people would upgrade if it were possible. It's also a cost tradeoff, since replaceable components require sockets or connectors vs simply soldering them in. Reliability can become and issue if thermal cycles cause components to lose contact with the socket; although bad solder is the flip side but since the socket is soldered in you've added another potential failure point.

    Anecdotally, I have upgrade a number of my computers over the years, but then again I am pretty tech savvy and like messing with stuff. Virtually everyone else I know simply buys a machine and uses it until it no longer meets their needs and replaces it; and have never needed more ram or disk space in their machine beyond that what it had originally.

    Would it be nice if Macs were easily upgradable? Sure, but that shipped sailed long ago. In the end, manufacturers are moving to a non-upgradable and repair by replace major parts model for design and cost reasons.

    It's a question of what materials are used and how easy they can be separated during recycling, and should be part of the product design from the start. It may simply be cheaper and more efficient to shred the mobo and separate the materials afterward. Minimizing the number of different materials may help in the sorting as well.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 7, 2019 ---
    Exactly. companies respond to customer tastes and try to produce products they want; which means unless they make one-offs the products are designed for the widest possible customer base, resulting in tradeoffs that leave a small fraction of the potential customers unhappy.

    Yes, just like it's M-B fault that customers want tricked out Gelandewagens...
     
  2. Peperino macrumors 6502

    Peperino

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    #527
    No, Only Apple has been sacrificing functionality over design.
    Pro users do not care how thin a computer is if they are taking away great features like Mag-Safe, and have to carry several adaptors in order to connect your computer.
     
  3. MrUNIMOG macrumors 6502

    MrUNIMOG

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2014
    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    #528
    They're sacrificing legacy functionality for better and future-proof functionality. Like they've always done.
     
  4. jlc1978, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019

    jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #529
    I disagree. Every MB I have had, since my first white one has added functionality and with one exception have found that features dropped were not a hassle. I have no more connectors or adaptors, save one, then I did with my 2015 that I now have with my 2018. I have USB-C to HDMI, various USB types for HD's , printers, etc. The touchbar, once I got used to it, is very helpful as well. The only thing I miss is the SD slot as I have CCC backup all my work hourly. I wound up with a dongle to handle that chore.

    Mag Safe? I have a magnetic USB-C to USB-C that replicates Magsafe just fine. Yes, it is a pain to buy new cables but it eliminates the need for adaptors; and in many cases the cost of USB A to C adaptors is the same as a new cable.

    Everyone has their own preferences about what is needed in a computer, and Apple has it's own vision, even if we find it a bit blurry at times.
     
  5. Peperino, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019

    Peperino macrumors 6502

    Peperino

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    #530
    That is your opinion, but the majority disagree with you. All the pre 2016 MBP were good.
    All the new 2016+ MBP is one of the worse products designed in Apple's history.
    Furthermore, it was so badly designed and so badly received, that the very first week they lowered all the adaptors prices.
    That in itself show you how poorly the product was designed.
    Furthermore, I speak from personal experience since many of my friends that bought it actually returned it.
    If Apple pretends customer to pay a premium obscene price for a Macbook Pro, you do not need to be carrying around extra cables and adaptors.

    - The Keyboard is so bad that Apple got a class action lawsuit. And Apple conveniently hide it. And the new 2018 repair with condoms in each key it is a temporary fix.
    - They removed the Mag-safe in order to make the computer thinner? Who cares?
    - No compatibility
    - Problems with speakers.
    - Soldered RAM and SSD, which makes the computer non-upgradable, disposable, more prone to failure, and more expensive to repair.
    - A useless Touchbar, that the only purpose is to provide an excuse to increase the price by $400.00. Other laptops are already offering touchscreen laptops, or track pads that are touchscreens, that are much better and more productive than a useless touchbar. Again, so much for innovation.
    - So badly designed, that you cannot connect the most sold product (iPhone), whitout the need of an adaptor.

    You can provide as many excuses as you want where to buy cables and adaptors, but that shows how poorly designed the product is and defies the purpose of the portability of the Macbook.

    People may have different needs and you can disagree, but reality says otherwise. Apple's own visions about the "Pro" products, both Macbook Pros and Mac Pros, actually tells you how little Apple care about design and innovation. Both products were massive failures and filled with problems, and when products are failures, Apple's vision is not blurry, it is a black hole, and NOT what users want.
    Fix in a bad keyboard, does not make it better, it makes a fixed bad keyboard!

    Shady issues about MacBook Pro



    --- Post Merged, Feb 7, 2019 ---
    That is what they always do. They screw everybody, creating a product that is poorly designed, lack of connectivity among the basic things.
    But what Apple claims about the "future of functionality" is a lie. They claimed the same thing when they released Thunderbolt 2, that you would be able to connect multiple drives and 2 monitors. That was a complete lie since when loading 3 external devices you start having issues, not to mention that you run also in problems when connecting multiple monitors.
    So the future of functionality is a pathetic excuse for a poorly designed product. Again, so poorly designed that Apple discounted the entire line up of adaptors.
    FYI, the same happened to the Mac Pro and see what happened to it?
     
  6. jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #531
    I seriously doubt you are correct. All we see is anecdotal and the compalints of some on sites such as this, which hardly represents the majority of users.

    Or they decided to help ease the transition by offering a break on the price. If it was such a failure they'd still do it if you were correct; but since they don't I think your assumption as to why they discounted them is incorrect.

    And I know people who like it, which is just as anecdotal as your claim.

    If you don't like it but a machine you like, I happen to like the touchbar overall.

    Huh? All you need is a USB-C to Lightening adapter. Hopefully the next iPhone will ditch Lightening and go USB C like the iPad.

    Huh? A free clue: Laptops need cables to connect to devices, and have since day 1.

    Exactly, and people should buy what works for them. If a Mac doesn't do what you need or you don't like its design buy something else. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't like it. We simply disagree on what we want in a laptop.
     
  7. Peperino, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019

    Peperino macrumors 6502

    Peperino

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    #532
    Base on your replies, defending so feverishly a bad laptop design, is a clue that you either work for Apple or you are so blinded by Apple that you cannot see a bad laptop design.
    We can disagree on what we want in a laptop, but a bad designed computer, is just simply that, a badly designed computer. And that is why the Mac Pro was also a massive failure. So much so, that pro users are buying old upgraded towers (pre-trashcan) or they are actually building hackintoshes.

    I wonder why Mac sales are declining year over year, instead of growing...
    Guess why Apple is not releasing anymore sales by unit numbers?
    Because they are selling so many Macs...I do not think so...
    --- Post Merged, Feb 7, 2019 ---
    It is quite an anecdote that thousand of "happy" Macbook customers are actually filing a class action lawsuit for the bad keyboard design of the Macbook Pro.
     
  8. PickUrPoison, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019

    PickUrPoison macrumors 68030

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2017
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, CA
    #533
    Why must everything be so black and white? The world is a little more complex than that; there are also several shades of grey.

    Yes, there is an issue with some MBP keyboards. Apple has said so quite clearly, and has put into place an extended warranty for those affected. Do all 20+ million MBP sold since the 2016 model was introduced have a keyboard problem? No, they don’t. Some do, some don’t. Some users have had zero problems, others have experienced multiple failures.

    Does the keyboard have less travel? Sure. Does everyone hate typing on it? Not at all. Some do, some don’t. Some love it and type faster than ever; others can’t stand it and hate it with a passion.

    Was the Mac Pro designed with dual GPUs, under the expectation that workloads that could take advantage of a parallel GPU architecture would become more common in the future? Yup. Was Apple’s crystal ball accurate? Nope. Those workloads never really materialized. Does Apple wish they had designed the cylinder for one big powerful graphics card instead? Sure... hindsight is 20/20.

    But believe it or not, there are plenty of Mac Pro users who love the 2013 cylinder. Not everyone has a requirement for GPU performance. Some users value its smaller size (and even portability), quiet operation, or its appearance. Not everyone thinks the same as you do, and that doesn’t make them wrong and you right.

    re: Apple no longer reporting units sold, I’m sure you realize that no one—including Dell, Lenovo, HP and Acer—discloses units either. That’s why every quarter we have articles with the latest market share estimates from market research companies such as IDC. Their numbers will tell you that Apple’s market share has been increasing in recent years, even as PC desktop/laptop shipments overall have have fallen off a cliff, from 350 million/yr in the 2011 timeframe to about 250 million today.
     
  9. ipponrg macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    #534
    I will say that our IT dept which services a lot of MacBook Pros have said that the 2016+ are much more problematic than the pre 2016s.

    Anecdotally, I have not heard of a pro Touchbar argument yet from any of my coworkers. Most, including myself, find it nice for adjusting sound and video, but utterly useless for our day to day task. If you are comfortable with hot keys especially ones that’s use the function and escape keys, it is counter productive to use the Touch Bar.

    The problem with this statement is a few things:
    - Apple’s synergy is disrupted out of the box. This is contradictory to “it just works” because it doesn’t. You have to buy an extra cable/adapter.
    - The upcharge in buying the cable
    - An additional proprietary cable (to carry) that has very limited use

    This is true except you now need to carry an additional adapter around which means an increased chance of forgetting to bring it. It’s now become a radio shack problem where you need to mix/match adapters with Apple Mbps
     
  10. jlc1978, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019

    jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #535
    Oh well. I see. You can't argue facts so you resort to ad hominem.

    In your view. Others find it meets their needs. YMMV

    Here's some reason I think it is a good design:
    • It's light and thin so it's easy to lug when on the road
    • They've reduced the connector design to one and unified it with the iPad so it reduces the number of cables needed to connect to other devices when needed
    • The touchbar adds functionality when using programs by allowing you to use your fingers instead of touchpad for common menu items
    • My cables are now dual use iPad/MBP so I can stop carrying extraneous cables

    It's clear we just disagree here. If people don't like the new MBP design or trashcan Pro they can buy something else. That's the beauty of capitalism.

    Has Apple made design error at various times? Of course. Recently, dumping the SD slot wa sone I think was a mistake. As for the pre-2018 keyboard, it may have been a bad design. It would be interesting to see the failure rate vs other designs. I had a key stick on a 2015 MBP. By your standards, it was a bad design as well.

    Hackintosh? Sure some people will fiddle with rolling their own and live with the tradeoffs due to costs, but they are a tiny fraction of Mac users.

    Most Mac users just use them and don't waste time of forums, etc., which tend to be echo chambers that magnify concerns and opinions so that posters think their views are widespread.

    Maybe because laptop and desktop sales have been decline or flat since 2011 and Apple is part of that trend? Facts are a pesky thing...

    Thousands? Here's a clue: A class action lawsuit only needs a few lead plaintiffs to claim to represent an entire class. People sue over anything.

    At any rate, we've strayed a long way form the original story...
     
  11. Abazigal macrumors G4

    Abazigal

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Singapore
    #536
    I personally don't see myself carrying any extra cables.

    With my old MBA, I would have my MagSafe charger and a mini-display to VGA adaptor.

    With my new HP Elite windows tablet, I still bring around a USB-C charger, and a USB-C to VGA adaptor or the travel dock around.

    I think this whole "rat's nest of cables" issue has been largely overblown by tech media. In reality, you really only need one dock consisting of that custom selection of ports that you need, which isn't really that different from when you were using a MBA or MBP with thunderbolt ports.
     
  12. jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #537
    Fair enough. Do they have hard data or is it a recency bias?

    I find the whole dongle argument a bit disingenuous. Yes, you have to spend a few dollars to buy some new cables, but once you do you have no more, and potentially fewer, cables and dongles than you had before. For example, the same USB C cable that charges my MBP charges my iPad. One USB-C monitor cable can be used by both devices, eliminating an iPad dongle. I also have a portable battery pack that is a QI charger that uses USB-C to charge the battery pack, so no Lightening cable is needed anymore.

    For me, I carry backup cables anyway in case one fails while traveling. Some USB-C now do dual duty so I need fewer backups.

    Sure, if you want to use USB A cables you have you have to buy adapters. I chose to buy new cables instead.

    Manufacturers change connectors over time. I have a box of RS-232, firewire, SCSI, pre-lightening iPod/iPhone cables lying around.
     
  13. ipponrg macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    #538
    I don’t think I understand this question. If you work in IT and you constantly get tickets to fix 2016+ MBPs, I would assume that is hard data.

    I don’t think it’s disingenuous. Everyone has their own preferences, and I am sharing mine which appears to vibe with most of my peers.

    Just reading how much stuff you have to carry is not great. I’m an engineer and I hate having to remember to carry multiple peripherals/adapters to do XYZ. It’s why the 2015 MBPs were highly regarded as the last. Most conference rooms here have HDMI. If I forget the USB-C to HDMI cable or the dock, then forget about presenting on my laptop
    --- Post Merged, Feb 8, 2019 ---
    Anecdotally you’re a teacher with very different needs here, and you don’t work in tech.

    In tech, people are running around with their laptops from room to room, person to person, and floor to floor one after another.
     
  14. Peperino macrumors 6502

    Peperino

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    #539
    Plenty of user that like the Mac Pro? I can count them with one hand.
    No one care about portability in a Pro desktop computer. They cared more about connectivity, upgradability. The previous tower was such a great machine, and they went from great to worse ever.
    Even Apple acknowledged that the design was not successful. But what it is worrisome is that it took them 6 years to figure that out and came out with a new model...
    I do not care about being right. But facts speak for themselves. We understand that iPhone makes 65% of sales and that is why Apple turned into a luxury phone company. It has been quite clear how little Apple care about the Pro community. And you can see that in all the so called "Pro" Machines.
    Mac Pro, Macbook Pro and iMac Pro.
     
  15. jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #540
    The question is how does that data compare to a similar population of pre-2016 MBPs? Recency bias is when more recent events have a greater impact on a person's assessment that past ones, resulting in the belief that the more recent events are more common than they actually are.



    Fair enough. I wasn't directing the comment to you but the larger group arguing you need more cables and adaptors when you really don't.

    Fortunately I have in my go bag a complete set ready to go so I don't forget any nor take all the ones at my desk.

    That's great if you don't have to go to a conference room that doesn't already have an HDMI cable. Not all do in every situation so I need to carry one just in case anyway.

    Not a teacher nor in IT but do work with a lot of non IT tech related issues; amongst others. I do not have the luxury of staying in the same office where I know what is in each room or on each floor, I drag mine around the world for work. So yes my needs differ form you and I carry my cables with me. I've found I have to take no more with a 2018 vs 2015 MBP. To each his own. YMMV.
     
  16. ipponrg macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    #541
    I can only say that they (IT) have told me there are significant keyboard and other hardware issues with 2016s+. I don't think IT staff really care about bending facts here because the company pays for the Macbooks as if they are soda. What I will say is anecdotally in this floor of 70 engineers, most dislike the touchbar. The reason they are on these newer MBPs is because their old ones are either too old (where it's hard for IT to manage via JAMF) or they broke (and IT has no pre-Touchbar replacement).

    That comment wasn't directed at you.

    In response, most people in tech who move room to room, person to person, floor to floor... do not know what is available. Most typically assume the different areas will have everything we need such that we don't have to carry cables/adapters/dongles.
     
  17. PickUrPoison, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019

    PickUrPoison macrumors 68030

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2017
    Location:
    Sunnyvale, CA
    #542
    Believe it or not, there are plenty of people who disagree with your opinions, which you claim are facts.

    You think everyone cares about upgradability? Not at all. Many Mac Pro users never upgrade at all after purchase. And some users certainly prefer the small, quiet cylinder over the large, loud tower.

    But in your black and white world, everyone thinks the same as you: tower good, cylinder bad. It’s simply not true.
     
  18. Abazigal macrumors G4

    Abazigal

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Singapore
    #543
    Surely after working in the same place for a while, you will more or less know what is needed. I mean, in this day and age, what ports do you really need in an adaptor? Usb c for passthrough charging, vga and hdmi for projecting, usb a for external storage media, maybe Ethernet?

    It’s still one adaptor. If the company chooses to invest in a bunch of usb to single-port adaptors, then that’s really on them.
     
  19. mudflap macrumors 6502

    mudflap

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Location:
    Chicago
    #544
    It was on sale over the holidays at B&H Photo Video for something like $249. But of course I was already broke by that time so I missed it. :(
     
  20. Peperino macrumors 6502

    Peperino

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    #545
    Your answer just acknowledge what you need to do. Carrying several cables for what suppose to be a top of the line, way overpriced Macbook Pro. Pathetic.
    Pathetic that you need to invest in several extra cables in order to be compatible with the world.
    It defies the purpose fo portability.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 9, 2019 ---
    It is a fact that the trashcan has been a complete failure. Even Apple has said that. But maybe you know more than Apple. People prefer the trashcan over the tower? Yeah really...
    Because Pro users are desperately looking at old updated towers, the prices for used Towers are hot.

    It is not just upgradability. RAM, SSD and many other components are soldered into the Logic board, making the computer more prone to failure and way much more expensive to repair. Furthermore, some can only be repaired by Apple only.
    In addition, what is much worse, by soldering the SSD, they are forcing all users to pay obscene prices for Apple SSD, that are way more expensive than the top brands in the market.

    So it does not look that soldering SSD it is a good design for users. But yes, Apple will give you all sort of excuses, since Apple is clearly the only one benefited by ripping off customers with more expensive repairs, more expensive SSD prices and since computers will die faster users will need to buy a new computers.

    Furthermore, Pro users, want upgradeability, especially since they are upgrading video cards, RAM, and swapping extra internal drives, that was so easy on the Towers.


    See above. If trashcan was remotely good, Apple would never claim that they made a mistake. And they did.
    So your comment that trashcans are remotely good is pointless if market says otherwise.
     
  21. Abazigal macrumors G4

    Abazigal

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Singapore
    #546
    I am not sure what exactly you feel the alternative should be.

    Even with my work-issued windows tablet laptop, I have an accessory bag containing my USB-C charger (I actually bought my own third-party charger because the official charger was extremely thick and bulky; even moreso than Apple's one), wireless mouse (because windows trackpads continue to be horrible), plus adaptors and misc accessories. Sure, it also comes with one USB-C port, but most of my colleagues just use it to hold the adapter for their wireless mouse (I specifically chose a model that didn't need one).

    So at the end of the day, I am still not charging my iPhone from my laptop even though it has a USB-A port anyways, I have a travel hub that's thicker than the entire laptop itself, and I don't find myself carrying any fewer cables that I otherwise would. At least with a MBP, I can airdrop files to and from my iOS devices, or airplay it to an Apple TV, and I am comfortable enough with the trackpad that I don't need to use a mouse with it.

    We have clearly moved beyond the point of thick, bulky laptops containing every single port known to man. Your argument might have made sense when the MBP was first refreshed in 2016, but it seems a little hypocritical criticising Apple for a phenomena that has spread to the rest of the computing world.

    By that logic, so long as Apple continues to make record profits on their products, does that mean that they are beyond reproach since the market has voted with their wallets?
     
  22. Shanghaichica, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019

    Shanghaichica macrumors G3

    Shanghaichica

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Location:
    UK
    #547
    I have to agree about the ports. I bought my MBA in 2015 just as the 12 inch MacBook launched. Coming from windows machines I couldn’t get my head around the MacBook only having one port. So I got the MBA with all its legacy ports. To be honest apart from connecting my iPhone once a year when I upgrade to copy my music across from iTunes I never use the ports. I bought an external drive and micro SD card reader but with iCloud Drive I don’t find myself using either. I also bought a super DVD drive but I’m not using that either.
     
  23. jlc1978 macrumors 68020

    jlc1978

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    #548
    I have no idea what you are talking about at this point. Any laptop needs cables to connect to devices except for those such as iPads and iPones which can use WiFI or BT to connect to a Mac. I carry no more and actually fewer, cables than I did with my 2015 MBP my 2018 replace.

    All in all I spent maybe $50 to replace my legacy cables with USB-C ones so I don't need to carry adaptors; and given the costs of adaptors the cost was a wash in the end.

    At this point, your position makes no sense and has devolved into little more than a rant against the new MBP. HAND.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 10, 2019 ---
    Fair enough. I travel to clients and never know what they may have or even their file transfer capablities so I want to be self contained in case they don't have the right setup.
     
  24. ipponrg macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    #549
    I would do the same if I was in a service/consultant role, so I understand your use cases. However I am talking about the lowest common denominator here where people such as myself are in roles where we are peer to peer.
     
  25. Peperino macrumors 6502

    Peperino

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    #550
    I understand having less ports and connectivity on a Macbook Air. Not on a Macbook Pro.

    Please tell me how much money Apple made from the Trashcan?
    Please tell me how many trashcan units were actually sold.
    And since you are at it, also it would be great if Apple can disclose the rerturn rates on the Macbook Pro 2016.

    Why so you think they are not releasing sales by unit numbers anymore? What records profits. Apple numbers were actually lower by their own lowered guidance...
    --- Post Merged, Feb 10, 2019 ---
    Your response make no sense whatsoever. A single USB-C does NOT provide access to USB-A, Thunderbolt 2, HDMI or Cards.
    So that means you need to carry 4 more cables and or at least buy an adaptor that contains all the ports.
    Not to mention the bad keyboard and the remove of the best Apple features, the Mag-safe.

    Yeah,...next you are going to tell me to buy an adaptor that converts the USB-C into a mag-safe...Pathetic.

    Go collect your check at the nearest Apple store...
     

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