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FasterQuieter

macrumors 6502a
Feb 21, 2008
774
1,772
The A14 is probably equivalent to the 2013 Xbox One for graphics, maybe faster? That would be a perfect gaming machine for most people. It's only missing one thing...
 

name99

macrumors 68020
Jun 21, 2004
2,184
1,996
1) I think here you're referring to the hardcore enthusiasts. Most PC gamers probably aren't in that category. According to Steam's May 2022 hardware survey (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/), the most common GPU is a GTX 1060.

2) Apple isn't looking to convert the hardcore enthusiasts. They're looking at the much larger market of more casual AAA gamers—not the ones who buy special-purpose gaming computers, but rather those who buy a PC for general use, but at the same time would like to also use it for games. Right now, the essentially complete absence of native AAA games for AS makes a Mac a deal-breaker for those people. Thus Apple is trying to eventually have enough of a library for those who want to buy a general-purpose computer, like to do some gaming, and are considering a Mac.

And it's not an all-or-nothing thing, where you either shift everyone in that category to Mac or you don't. It's more about moving the needle more towards MacOS for some fraction of these casual gamers—and also about increasing customer satisfaction for MacOS users who would like to do AAA gaming on their Macs.

Your theory hinges on the assumption that this "casual AAA gamers" market exists. Like I said, I've seen 10+ years talking about this, and see no evidence for it.
Yes, there are plenty of AAA gamers who don't own high-end hardware. But *aspirationally* they want to be like hardcore gamers, including all their attitudes, including the Apple hate.

Apple providing games to people who have bought into Mac and want casual games is reasonable and fine, and has been*my* interpretation of their strategy.
Apple providing "superior" games, so that they convert casual gamers from PCs?!? No, I don't buy it; I think that's a hopeless, doomed strategy. It's kinda like the mosque assuming it will get a whole lot of evangelical converts if it just puts on a better free buffet table after services.
 

dogstar

macrumors regular
Mar 1, 2006
176
209
Elden Ring! lol
M2 is 4TF, PS5 is 10TF.

Some sort of gaming only M2 chip that only has gaming essential features. Maybe just cram in 4 efficiency cores with lots of L2 cache and 24 GPU cores. Might be able to get by with 4GB ram. I think that would exceed or at least meet PS5 performance.

Cut all the encoders, just minimal decoders and neural features to keep chip size down. Make 100 million of them and use nextgen process to lower average cost per unit to quarters and take over the console market Lol. Make all the money in that 30% app store.

Maybe they could sell it this way so it’s more profitable: AppleTV Arcade with A15 for $299 or AppleTV Arcade with upgraded M2 Arcade SoC for $499. Everyone would buy the upgraded chip anyway cause that’s just what everyone usually does at the Apple store. I know I would.
 
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Heat_Fan89

macrumors 68030
Feb 23, 2016
2,537
3,233
You won’t get much argument from me that even PC gaming is becoming a niche market. I do think that properly done PC games are better because the computer is better but it’s also very expensive, and given a choice between spending $500-800 dollars for an X-Box or PlayStation and $2000 for a low end gaming PC more people will chose the cheaper option.
Just to give you an example. I have an HP Omen with an i9-10850K, 32GB RAM, RTX 3080. I play F1 2021 on my 4K monitor. I also have a PS5 and a Series X. I honestly could not tell you which one is which. My HP Omen cost me 2K last April and my PS5 and Series X was $1K, combined.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,647
2,738
Yeah, that wouldn't make sense. But I would probably buy one if it is as silent as the MacBook Pros. 🙂

Did Gurman give an answer to the Post Game question about the Mac Studio: "Q: Do you anticipate an update to the Mac Studio?" I would be up for a more quiet Mac Studio with an M2/3 Max.
Don't know if Gurman answered that question.

There appear to be two potential sources of noise with the Mac Studio: Fan noise and bearing noise.

For bearing noise, which seems to be a QC issue rather than a design issue, I would assume that should be sorted out by Apple by the time the M2 arrives (if it hasn't already been).

For fan noise, if anything the M2 would be louder, because it's more power-hungry under load than the M1. However, a lot of the noise complaints for the M1 are the routine, low-load/idle fan noise, and the maker of Macs Fan Control says the issue is that the idle fan speed has been locked at 1315 RPM, even though the actual minimum is 1100 RPM. They find that it stays cool at 1100 RPM, and that the fan is much less audible at that speed: https://crystalidea.com/blog/mac-studio-fan-control-and-fan-noise

Perhaps the M2 also will not require more than 1100 RPM at idle, and can thus also benefit from this adjustment.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,647
2,738
I agree that PC gamers aren’t cheap but they don’t flock to Apple and never will. It’s because the typical PC gamer likes to build their own rigs.
Those are all good points but you and I forgot one thing. PC's are no longer where the majority of gamers gravitate too. For the last 10-15 yrs consoles have leapfrogged PC gaming by a considerable margin both in popularity and marketshare. So much so that PC games are rarely found in stores. They have been relegated to Steam, Epic and other digital storefronts. It's even tougher to compete against the XBOX Series X or PS5 which can produce high quality 4K visuals with smooth framerates for under $499. Most games today are optimized for the Consoles then are ported to the PC. It used to be the other way around. Both the PS5 and XBOX Series X easily surpasses performance of a GTX 1060 all for less than $500.
I didn't forget anything. I was simply replying to your first post, concerning the PC gaming market.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,647
2,738
Your theory hinges on the assumption that this "casual AAA gamers" market exists. Like I said, I've seen 10+ years talking about this, and see no evidence for it.
Yes, there are plenty of AAA gamers who don't own high-end hardware. But *aspirationally* they want to be like hardcore gamers, including all their attitudes, including the Apple hate.

Apple providing games to people who have bought into Mac and want casual games is reasonable and fine, and has been*my* interpretation of their strategy.

Since you've been thinking about this for the past decade you've certainly given it much more thought than I have. Given this, have you found any market surveys that support your position? That's not something I've looked into, but perhaps you have.

Apple providing "superior" games, so that they convert casual gamers from PCs?!? No, I don't buy it; I think that's a hopeless, doomed strategy. It's kinda like the mosque assuming it will get a whole lot of evangelical converts if it just puts on a better free buffet table after services.
I'm not a fan of religious prostletyzing, but I wouldn't use it an an illustration of a strategy doomed to fail. It often works. That's the main reason Christianity is the world's largest religion.
 

Juuro

macrumors 6502
Feb 13, 2006
404
397
Germany
Don't know if Gurman answered that question.

There appear to be two potential sources of noise with the Mac Studio: Fan noise and bearing noise.

For bearing noise, which seems to be a QC issue rather than a design issue, I would assume that should be sorted out by Apple by the time the M2 arrives (if it hasn't already been).

For fan noise, if anything the M2 would be louder, because it's more power-hungry under load than the M1. However, a lot of the noise complaints for the M1 are the routine, low-load/idle fan noise, and the maker of Macs Fan Control says the issue is that the idle fan speed has been locked at 1315 RPM, even though the actual minimum is 1100 RPM. They find that it stays cool at 1100 RPM, and that the fan is much less audible at that speed: https://crystalidea.com/blog/mac-studio-fan-control-and-fan-noise

Perhaps the M2 also will not require more than 1100 RPM at idle, and can thus also benefit from this adjustment.
I know, I had both a Mac Studios, one with a Max one with the Ultra. I didn't have the bearing or coil whine, but the noise of the exhaust vents was the reason I returned them. The both sounded exactly the same. I also experimented with Macs Fan Control. The noise was less when set to 1100 RPM, but still easily audible. But when I put a book around 1 cm behind the exhaust the noise was gone. So I suppose there is a problem with the air direction. I can imagine that Apple might be able to fix this by altering their hole pattern they are wrongful proud of. Also the M1 Ultra stayed crazy cool (around 32°C) even when rendering videos for an hour with the 1315 RPM. So there is plenty enough headroom for a slightly hotter chip.
I just hope Apple will not just stick a different chip in the exact same chassis with the exact same cooling. The Mac Studio Max would have been the perfect computer for me.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,647
2,738
I know, I had both a Mac Studios, one with a Max one with the Ultra. I didn't have the bearing or coil whine, but the noise of the exhaust vents was the reason I returned them. The both sounded exactly the same. I also experimented with Macs Fan Control. The noise was less when set to 1100 RPM, but still easily audible. But when I put a book around 1 cm behind the exhaust the noise was gone. So I suppose there is a problem with the air direction. I can imagine that Apple might be able to fix this by altering their hole pattern they are wrongful proud of. Also the M1 Ultra stayed crazy cool (around 32°C) even when rendering videos for an hour with the 1315 RPM. So there is plenty enough headroom for a slightly hotter chip.
I just hope Apple will not just stick a different chip in the exact same chassis with the exact same cooling. The Mac Studio Max would have been the perfect computer for me.
Just wondering, since you mentioned you could fix the fan noise by putting a book 1 cm behind the rear exhaust vents: Why not do that? Was it not practical for your desk setup? I'm wondering if you could have moved it so its back was 1 cm from the wall (though you'd probably need more than a 1 cm offset to make room for the cables).
 
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devinher

macrumors member
Mar 5, 2010
45
12


In the latest edition of his Power On newsletter for Bloomberg, Mark Gurman outlined additional M2 Macs on Apple's product roadmap, including new Mac mini models with M2 and M2 Pro chips, new 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro models with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, and a new Mac Pro tower with M2 Ultra and "M2 Extreme" chips.

m2-mac-mini-screen-feature.jpg

Following the M2 series of Macs, Gurman said the first M3 series of Macs will include an updated 13-inch MacBook Air, an all-new 15-inch MacBook Air, a new iMac, and potentially a new 12-inch notebook that is "still in early development."

Gurman said Apple is developing several additional devices that could launch later this year and beyond, including a new Apple TV with an A14 chip and an increased 4GB of RAM, a new HomePod with the same S8 chip coming to the Apple Watch Series 8, an AR/VR headset that may have an M2 chip and 16GB of RAM, iPad Pro models with the M2 chip, a new low-end iPad with an A14 chip and a USB-C port, new AirPods Pro, and more.

Gurman said the new HomePod will be closer to the original in terms of size and feature an updated display on the top of the speaker:As for the S8 chip for the Apple Watch Series 8 and new HomePod, Gurman said he was told it will have the same specifications as the S7 and S6 chips in previous models. Gurman said the S8 chip may also be used in the next Apple Watch SE.

Gurman also reiterated that he expects Apple to release a larger iPad with a 14-inch to 15-inch display within the next two years.

Article Link: Gurman: Apple Planning M2 Pro Mac Mini, New Apple TV With A14 Chip, Revamped HomePod With S8 Chip, and More
A 15" iPad would be insane! It sounds fun, but I don't believe that's going to happen. People using it as a laptop replacement would like it but as a tablet, it would be unwieldy. The current size for the 12.9 " Pro is the sweet spot.
 

Jim Tincher

macrumors newbie
May 3, 2016
2
0


In the latest edition of his Power On newsletter for Bloomberg, Mark Gurman outlined additional M2 Macs on Apple's product roadmap, including new Mac mini models with M2 and M2 Pro chips, new 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro models with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips, and a new Mac Pro tower with M2 Ultra and "M2 Extreme" chips.

m2-mac-mini-screen-feature.jpg

Following the M2 series of Macs, Gurman said the first M3 series of Macs will include an updated 13-inch MacBook Air, an all-new 15-inch MacBook Air, a new iMac, and potentially a new 12-inch notebook that is "still in early development."

Gurman said Apple is developing several additional devices that could launch later this year and beyond, including a new Apple TV with an A14 chip and an increased 4GB of RAM, a new HomePod with the same S8 chip coming to the Apple Watch Series 8, an AR/VR headset that may have an M2 chip and 16GB of RAM, iPad Pro models with the M2 chip, a new low-end iPad with an A14 chip and a USB-C port, new AirPods Pro, and more.

Gurman said the new HomePod will be closer to the original in terms of size and feature an updated display on the top of the speaker:As for the S8 chip for the Apple Watch Series 8 and new HomePod, Gurman said he was told it will have the same specifications as the S7 and S6 chips in previous models. Gurman said the S8 chip may also be used in the next Apple Watch SE.

Gurman also reiterated that he expects Apple to release a larger iPad with a 14-inch to 15-inch display within the next two years.

Article Link: Gurman: Apple Planning M2 Pro Mac Mini, New Apple TV With A14 Chip, Revamped HomePod With S8 Chip, and More
Everyone seems to gloss over "a new iMac".... what could it possibly be? I know what I'm hoping for, a replacement for my late 2015 27" iMac. Well, I just replaced that iMac last week with a Mac Mini...
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,647
2,738
Everyone seems to gloss over "a new iMac".... what could it possibly be? I know what I'm hoping for, a replacement for my late 2015 27" iMac. Well, I just replaced that iMac last week with a Mac Mini...
Probably because Gurman himself is so nonspecific about it, so there's no way to know if he's implying an updated 24", or a 27".
 
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wideEyedPupil

macrumors member
Aug 24, 2012
84
33
I wonder if there will be enough room for M2 Pro in a Mac mini, in terms of pricing. I had thought what Apple might do is keep the M1 at the low end, and then introduce M2 in the mid-range, sort of like what they did with the MacBook Air (although the MacBook Air is a different kettle of fish, since it got an all new form factor).

The reason M2 could work in the mid-range is because it incorporates ProRes acceleration, and supports 24 GB RAM with LPDDR5. My only concern with M2 would be a lack of ports, similar to the M1 model. So, an M2 Pro would be great if it had more ports, albeit at a higher price.


Why? Video games? Cuz M1 is completely unnecessary for the video streaming stuff.
not if you are the one doing the steaming (as opposed to watching). more and faster memory for GPU/CPU and a speed bump and more ports (4x TB3/4 over USB-C ports)
 

BradMacPro

macrumors regular
Mar 30, 2005
176
72
Apple has supposedly been targeting "gamers" for ten years, with nothing to show for it.

The "traditional" gamer market is toxic along multiple dimensions, but the ones most relevant to Apple are that
- they're cheap, and
- they hate Apple as part of their identity.

The best Apple can do is target the "casual gamer" market; but this market appears to be a mirage, at least in the context of aTV. They're primarily playing what boils down to disguised slot machines, just don't require very much CPU/GPU, and work fine on a phone.
Perhaps I should have said Apple Arcade user and not gamer.
 
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BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
184
162
I see occasional stutters in the menu with my A10X (not A10) Apple TV. A12 reportedly has fewer stutters (although I can't confirm that since I don't have one).

Also, the A12 model supports 4K HDR YouTube IIRC. Not that I care though, since I don't use YouTube much on Apple TV. Most importantly though, the A12 gets a new remote. I despise the remote for my A10X model. However, I can't get myself to spend the cash to buy a new remote. I may consider waiting a while longer and just buy the new A14 Apple TV 4K, and move the older A10X Apple TV 4K to a different TV. Or else I may just want a couple more years for a new A16 Apple TV.
I see stutters even on the very latest 2021 4K model. Just like on the previous model.

It seems tied to some software thing, but I have no insight on the problem. It's not due to our internet link - the problem pops up even on the main user interface screen.

The big advantage of the A12 model is that it reboots much quicker, which is the fix for the stuttering. Temporary fix.
 
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