Hackers Threaten to Release Reddit Data Unless API Changes Are Rolled Back

[Azzin]

And now it's not free, ending the free period.

Your argument was "If Reddit was offering it for free, it’s absolutely fair." and made no mention of a time limit of when it will be fair when Reddit starts charging.

So...thanks for agreeing that it's fair now...?

Sorry but you're not making any sense. Can't waste anymore time. Have a good one.

Yeah, no.

I’m not agreeing that’s fair at all, quite the opposite.

The ”options“ they have offered are unfair and unrealistic.

They could (and should) have worked closely with devs like Christian to come up with a better solution than “Well the charge is now $20 million PA and you have 30 days to decide”.

It‘s completely unprofessional and disingenuous.

 

[ninethirty]

The part where he built Apollo as per Reddit’s terms.

They literally allowed free 3rd party access to the API.

No one “stole” it or “leeched” it, or obtained it in any way that wasn’t by Reddit’s design.

Nobody suggested they did. But now reddit's terms have changed, and he's playing "poor me."

 

[ninethirty]

$12,000 per 50 million requests, which, for an app like Apollo comes out to around $20 million/year. Apollo currently charges for a Pro version which is $13/year. There are about 50,000 subscribers - so Apollo makes around $650,000/year. For comparison, Imgur comes out to about $3000 per 50 million requests - or 1/4 the price of Reddit. Reddit's API pricing is more comparable to Twitter, and Twitter's decision to start charging API access had less to do with money and more about shutting down 3rd party apps. Reddit seems to be taking the same approach - instead of just saying they no longer want 3rd party apps, their eliminating them in the guise of charged API access.

If you're truly interested in the details of all of this, you can read Christian Selig's (creator of Apollo) Reddit post breaking down all of the issues with Reddit's API pricing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm

Again, the issue is NOT that Reddit wants to charge for API access. Again, if you really want to know what is going on, just do a quick Google search and you'll find tons of articles detailing the issues. One of the common themes, however, is that both users and developers have no issue with Reddit wanting to charger for API access. If anything, most everyone agrees that Reddit needs to do something to become profitable - whether that is charging for API access or allowing/requiring 3rd party apps to show Reddit ads. Which directly leads to my next point: instead of or in addition to, Reddit could have relatively easily changed how their API works to allow Reddit ads to be displayed in 3rd party apps. This is a suggestion many, many, many people have made. Ads are Reddit's primary source of income, and their biggest issue with 3rd party apps is that they don't display Reddit's ads, by providing ad access via their API this would have basically solved their issues.

Furthermore, Reddit has been extremely opaque in this entire saga. They announced they were going to start charging for API access months ago, but then didn't announce the actually pricing until a couple of weeks ago, giving developers barely 30 days to make the necessary changes to their apps - which simply isn't enough time for the vast majority of independent app creators. In addition, developers have been attempting to work with Reddit since the first announcement, but often times have been met with radio silence.

Again, if you are truly interested in all of this, I suggest you do some research on your own to educate yourself on what is actually happening.

Oh I know what the issue is. The issue is, reddit wasn't charging for API access and people got used to something that they now can't have. People keep saying that they don't have a problem with API pricing* (*so long as its the price they want). You said yourself, reddit's pricing is in line with Twitter's. It's not outrageous.

 

[ninethirty]

There will be a better understanding if Reddit has done anything "wrong", in terms of the issues raised in the article, if that data is released. Blackmail is patently wrong, but whistleblowing a company that's engaged in behavior that runs counter to the interests of their user community, like non-transparent censoring, is justified in my opinion.

Your opinion doesn't matter on this issue. This is a crime. So you're ok with criminal behavior. I'm not.

 

[ninethirty]

So getting rid of your reddit client app competition by charging absurd API prices is a good thing? I agree that they're allowed to monetize API Access, but the way they did it killed most third party Reddit apps. That's scummy

There's nothing absurd about what they're charging. In line with other major social media companies. Yeah yeah, I know that Imgur is cheap, great. Reddit doesn't have an obligation to ensure that 3rd party apps grow and thrive.

 

[ninethirty]

I don't think you really comprehend that Reddit provides zero content to anyone. Literally 100% of all their content is supplied by the users themselves. So this makes them so different than most companies that try to find a price that consumers will pay to access the services they provide. People choose whether to pay to use Netflix, or Hulu, or any other service if it has content they like. Reddit is a glorified forum. People access it to read what other users have to say or post.

While technically you are right that Reddit does not need to negotiate or meet in the middle, the users are also free to move on and find a different forum.

It doesn't matter that 100% of their content is supplied by users. Reddit provides the platform, the servers, etc. Literally every single person using reddit understands that they supply the content. That doesn't mean that you're owed anything at all, or that you have a right to tell reddit how to run their business.

You are right though, others are free to move on and find a different forum, but good luck finding a platform that other people will design and host, while making no money, so that 3rd party app developers can prosper.

 

[ninethirty]

Threads like these are a great example of how no matter how wrong people can be, no matter what facts they are presented with, absolutely will dig in their heels and keep repeating things which aren’t true.

In the United States, not only is money “speech”, it is God.

There are two sides to every story. In this case it boils down to:

• 3rd party apps can't afford to keep running given Reddit's proposed API changes.
• Reddit is making those changes because they are not profitable.

Money matters when it comes to businesses.

What boggles my mind is how people think reddit can just keep going on forever, unprofitable, but provide everything 3rd party developers need to make bank. Those apps were

I mean, good god. Life isn't some 80's movie where a bunch of kids with BMX bikes band together to stop a development company from bulldozing Mikes Hot Dog Joint, that makes $20/week and can't pay its bills/mortgage. Money makes the world go 'round, and reddit doesn't make money.

 

[Radon87000]

It doesn't matter that 100% of their content is supplied by users. Reddit provides the platform, the servers, etc. Literally every single person using reddit understands that they supply the content. That doesn't mean that you're owed anything at all, or that you have a right to tell reddit how to run their business.

You are right though, others are free to move on and find a different forum, but good luck finding a platform that other people will design and host, while making no money, so that 3rd party app developers can prosper.

The platform and the servers have zero value without the users. Aggravating the user who generates the content isnt going to lead to a good outcome.

Having said that I agree with you that Reddit has done the number crunching and the number of people leaving isn't hitting it per their estimates so they will go ahead with it. But that doesn't mean its correct. Twitter valuation for instance has nose dived by two-thirds since Musk took over and Reddit isn't Twitter

Twitter’s value down two-thirds since Musk takeover, says investor

Asset manager Fidelity reports that stake worth $20m in October 2022 is now worth just under $6.6m

www.theguardian.com

You are right though, others are free to move on and find a different forum, but good luck finding a platform that other people will design and host, while making no money, so that 3rd party app developers can prosper.

I mean forums and bulletin boards have existed before the advent of Reddit. Reddit really isn't doing anything unique apart from aggregating everything under one umbrella. Literally every aspect of my life which I use Reddit for has a popular forum available for it. We even have Discord servers nowadays.

 

[Radon87000]

There are two sides to every story. In this case it boils down to:

• 3rd party apps can't afford to keep running given Reddit's proposed API changes.
• Reddit is making those changes because they are not profitable.

Money matters when it comes to businesses.

What boggles my mind is how people think reddit can just keep going on forever, unprofitable, but provide everything 3rd party developers need to make bank. Those apps were

I mean, good god. Life isn't some 80's movie where a bunch of kids with BMX bikes band together to stop a development company from bulldozing Mikes Hot Dog Joint, that makes $20/week and can't pay its bills/mortgage. Money makes the world go 'round, and reddit doesn't make money.

Its not a matter of affordability. The pricing is absurd and literally not a single third party developer on any platform will go bankrupt over it. Its like asking me to pay $100,000 for a car which should not cost more than $20,000 because the seller is burning cash.

I have no issues with Reddit banning third party apps (apart from being a bit sad about losing a good platform) but Reddit would have been seen in a much better light had they outright come out and said "We are unprofitable and these third party devs are leeching off us and hence we are banning third party apps effective immediately". They knew this would light a fire like it did for Twitter but Twitter had the balls to face it. Reddit tried to have its cake and eat it too by trying to pretend they were trying to work with devs.

This is exactly what Twitter did

Twitter officially bans third-party clients with new developer rules

Twitter quietly updated its rules after banning certain clients.

www.theverge.com

"The new rules state that you can’t use Twitter’s API or content to “create or attempt to create a substitute or similar service or product to the Twitter Applications."

What makes Reddit's response disgusting is that instead of dropping this thin facade and outright coming out of the door like Twitter, they are setting absurd prices, accusing devs of blackmail and stating outright lies (RIF developer did not want to work with us when there is a complete email chain which shows otherwise). Why all this slandering and lying to achieve the same purpose Twitter had?

Reddit should outright come out and ban third party apps. Do away with this window-dressing. Its not fooling anyone.

Banning third party apps hasn't worked wonders for Twitter yet but who knows Reddit may be the one?

 

[Radon87000]

Yeah, no.

I’m not agreeing that’s fair at all, quite the opposite.

The ”options“ they have offered are unfair and unrealistic.

They could (and should) have worked closely with devs like Christian to come up with a better solution than “Well the charge is now $20 million PA and you have 30 days to decide”.

It‘s completely unprofessional and disingenuous.

That's exactly my gripe with this whole situation. The way they have gone about it is completely unprofessional and unbecoming of a company trying to come out with an IPO.

To put it in the context of a workplace, if a manager wants to lay off an employee because he is not able to pay the bills, the professional way is to call him into a room, explain the situation, give him a severance package for 4-5 months and then shake on it and leave.

The unprofessional way would be to ask the employee to work 14-15 hours a day, deny him vacations and abuse him in front of workplace colleagues so as to effecrtively force him to turn in the papers so that its the employee who looks bad and not the manager.

Reddit opted for the unprofessional approach.

 

[Radon87000]

There's nothing absurd about what they're charging. In line with other major social media companies. Yeah yeah, I know that Imgur is cheap, great. Reddit doesn't have an obligation to ensure that 3rd party apps grow and thrive.

There isn't a single third party app on any platform which is able to function under the new regime. When no one can afford your pricing, its the pricing which is absurd not the developer. I don't know a single social media company which came out with absurd pricing. The closest analogy is Twitter but they were far more honest and outright banned 3PAs

And if your point is that, $20MM is what is needed for Reddit to become profitable which is what makes it not absurd, then maybe instead of resorting to slander, you could just ban the 3PAs like Twitter? Why draw out this charade

At my workplace, there is something called cost optimisation. If something is incurring huge costs, we first try and optimise it any way we can and try to recover it through revenues. If this causes a large jump in the selling price due to which there will be no demand for it, we just outright try and get rid of the aspect causing the large costs (AKA lay-offs in the tech industry currently). We don't persist and accuse the customers of beint poor.

You are right. Reddit has no legal obligation towards 3PA (I would argue there is a moral obligation towards devs who showcased your platform in the best way possible but I digress) so the professional approach would be to ban third party apps.

Reddit unlike Twitter does not have the balls to take the bull by the horns.

 

[Radon87000]

Oh I know what the issue is. The issue is, reddit wasn't charging for API access and people got used to something that they now can't have. People keep saying that they don't have a problem with API pricing* (*so long as its the price they want). You said yourself, reddit's pricing is in line with Twitter's. It's not outrageous.

Twitter banned 3PAs. They did not resort to slander. Reddit has achieved the impossible here. They managed to make Musk look good when he banned 3PAs.

 

[Skoal]

I'm sorry, am I really reading people supporting a band of criminals because they think these black hats might reduce the revenue a free entertainment site makes?

What a bunch of entitled children throwing a tantrum...

Yep you’re really reading that! Sad huh? Funny thing is these criminals are also demanding $4.5 million. Something tells me it’s about the money not the hurting of 3rd party apps. People have been using Reddit for free since day one but somehow they think they deserve to also use any app they want along with it….for free.

 

[Skoal]

Good. Burn Reddit to the ground. Greedy pricks!

Lol it’ll only hurt those that are so up in arms over the whole thing too. Like burning your apartment building down because the rent went up

 

[Analog Kid]

Yep you’re really reading that! Sad huh? Funny thing is these criminals are also demanding $4.5 million. Something tells me it’s about the money not the hurting of 3rd party apps. People have been using Reddit for free since day one but somehow they think they deserve to also use any app they want along with it….for free.

I think the $4.5M is just a service fee for their role in making a better world. Wait... Was Reddit hacked by Ticketmaster?

 

[Skoal]

congratulations, you just discovered why people love reddit

If people think Reddit is nothing but an internet cesspool they haven’t spent much time on Reddit.

 

[noraa]

Oh I know what the issue is. The issue is, reddit wasn't charging for API access and people got used to something that they now can't have. People keep saying that they don't have a problem with API pricing* (*so long as its the price they want). You said yourself, reddit's pricing is in line with Twitter's. It's not outrageous.

Believe whatever you want, this isn’t worth the argument.

 

[noraa]

Nobody suggested they did. But now reddit's terms have changed, and he's playing "poor me."

Ugh, you really have no idea what you’re talking about… but you do you.

 

[ninethirty]

Believe whatever you want, this isn’t worth the argument.

I'm just following facts, which obviously can be very inconvenient for some people.

Ugh, you really have no idea what you’re talking about… but you do you.

I've got a great idea of what I'm talking about. Point out the error in what I'm saying here: reddit didn't used to charge for API access, but now they are. They're charing more than someone like Imgur, but about on par with someone like Twitter. It was never a part of reddit's core mission to create a world of vibrant 3rd party apps that developers could profit from while reddit lost money. As a result, developers who have made millions previously, off the work of users, and reddit the company, now won't be able to do that anymore.

 

[nelloismello]

Twitter banned 3PAs. They did not resort to slander. Reddit has achieved the impossible here. They managed to make Musk look good when he banned 3PAs.

This right here. What Reddit is 100% allowed to do anything they want with their platform, but the way they approached it was scummy opposed to professional.

I hope ninethirty figures that out.

 

[roar08]

Threads like these are a great example of how no matter how wrong people can be, no matter what facts they are presented with, absolutely will dig in their heels and keep repeating things which aren’t true.

In the United States, not only is money “speech”, it is God.

Welcome to the electoral process of the United States of America.

 

[noraa]

I'm just following facts, which obviously can be very inconvenient for some people.



I've got a great idea of what I'm talking about. Point out the error in what I'm saying here: reddit didn't used to charge for API access, but now they are. They're charing more than someone like Imgur, but about on par with someone like Twitter. It was never a part of reddit's core mission to create a world of vibrant 3rd party apps that developers could profit from while reddit lost money. As a result, developers who have made millions previously, off the work of users, and reddit the company, now won't be able to do that anymore.

Meh, like I said, not worth the argument.

 

[ninethirty]

Meh, like I said, not worth the argument.

Truth hurts, I get it. I don't like to lose things I like either, but life isn't always fair, and the world doesn't revolve around me and I don't always get what I want.

 

[ninethirty]

This right here. What Reddit is 100% allowed to do anything they want with their platform, but the way they approached it was scummy opposed to professional.

I hope ninethirty figures that out.

I'm absolutely aware that they could have handled it better, but what's done is done, and business is still business. Reddit will undoubtedly lose some of its oldest users because of how they handled this, and they'll have to live with that, but on the whole, reddit will be fine, and the decisions they made make sense for a business that isn't profitable.

 

[noraa]

Truth hurts, I get it. I don't like to lose things I like either, but life isn't always fair, and the world doesn't revolve around me and I don't always get what I want.

I mean, what you’re espousing isn’t the truth, just your warped opinion.

The rest is true, however, in that Reddit will never be the same, nor will it ever be able to truly recover, after the boneheaded decisions they have made as of late.