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The TECHNOLOGY is easily available to answer all my questions...but it's POLICIES that dictate what will happen. And it's Policies that I wish to know well in advance before I abandon books and more to an ebook device with ebook downloads.
This is why I stick with physical books and using my local library as much as possible.

I often discuss the draconian licensing and policies on the e-collection. A loan cooldown period once a borrower "returns" a file that self-destructs anyways? :rolleyes:

A popular hardcover can hit 50-60 circulations and then sit on a shelf for the rest of its life. DVDs can go as high as +200 circulations. Owning something I am only going to read/watch once is a tough sell to me. Most media is disposable to me but I recognize people wanting to keep a copy on hand.
 
Wow. It was just a demo... you also miss the fact, a 5 year old can pick up an ipad and use it better than you can. (Not being rude... it's true. It's awful for your self esteem when your niece shows you up.) I notice a lot of people making similar comments, and it shows your age vs. kids of today.

I'm not trying to poke fun at your concerns, but the bulk of them really just show generation gaps...

1)You make a lot of assumptions about me, my age, and my technical ability.

2)Somehow you assume I have a 5 year old neice and that she can use an iPad better than me (and define "better" please). I have an iPad and I use it here and there. I also had an iPhone 3GS years ago and now a 4S and also an iPod Touch. Ya think with all these iOS devices I've had for the past 4+ years that maybe, just maybe I know how to use the devices quite well?

3)Generation gap. Righhhhhht

Not sure what boat you came in on but you're extremely insulting.

Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for knowing everything about me. Boy, you're just so right about everything I can only stop in awe of your brainpower.

You offer nothing to these discussions/debates with comments like above. In a face-to-face debate you would be laughed off the stage within seconds.

Keep up the great mind-reading abilities.
 
well, it's not really the publisher necessarily. If they wish to change their version/edition/title of the textbook, the person may need to re-purchase it because, well, it's different.

And just because the book is on my iPad does NOT mean I can/cannot copy it (via iTunes or some legal/appropriate way) to my sister's iPad...or my friend's.

This is one of my points of e-books in the first place: We, as consumers, need to fully understand the Policies of Apple and the Publishers on what we can and cannot "do" with books...IN LAYMENS TERMS...how can I "loan" a book to my sister...or my friend?...or someone outside of my country? What happens if my iPad is lost or dies?...do I need to repurchase at full or a discount...or maybe free? Is there a period of time that I am no longer allowed to re-download my copy? What happens if Apple's iBook store gets hacked and my account is messed up? What happens if Apple decides to change policy _____ down the road? Who (and is?) is responsible for making sure my book works on all iPads down the road? how do I sell my e-textbook down the road? etc etc etc.

There are so many questions since these ebooks are intangible. When I buy a traditional textbook it's mine forever...I can give it or loan it to anyone I choose (hence why the publishers keep making new editions to force new students to buy the updated book when it simply might be 3 typos). If I lose it, I go buy another one if it is available for purchase. I can sell my book for any price I wish.

The TECHNOLOGY is easily available to answer all my questions...but it's POLICIES that dictate what will happen. And it's Policies that I wish to know well in advance before I abandon books and more to an ebook device with ebook downloads.

Welcome to iCloud... where you can retrieve all your iTunes purchases or with your Apple ID. Books, apps, movies, music, magazines... and you can redownload them forever or until they are no longer offered in the itunes store.
www.apple.com/icloud


All of your questions have answers. Ebooks generally "can't" be "loaned." Though, your iTunes account allows all your media to be on up to 5 devices, technically supposed to be devices in your household.

I think the Nook was the only reader so far that allowed lending... but you can't read the book yourself until the person "returns" it to you virtually. This is just a draw back of the ebook.

I'm not really following your updates fears. Aside from a bug fix, a publisher isn't going to update a text book every week or month... and probably no more than once a year and before the school year generally starts when school isn't in session. (Bugs fixes might also include typos, wrong info like a date, etc.)

When a book becomes a new version, or gets major updates... their could be a small upgrade fee. This IS NOT RELEVANT FOR COLLEGE STUDENTS, but for K-12 where school districts pay for the books and reuse them for years.

And no, you're not going to sell your e-text book down the road, but it sounds like the price difference makes that worth while. This is why so many people buy college texts books on Kindles... they're still cheaper than what you get from selling a book back. You drop $90 on a book, sell it back for $20, you still spent $70 on that book. The ebook is $45... hmm... so you're $25 to the better for not being able to sell it back. I think publishers know how big the used book market is, and that's why there are often incentives because they know it takes a used book out of the market place. Not all books offer a great savings, some none at all,but generally, yes. Lots of people skip the campus book store and buy online... campus book stores mark those books up to make money.

I am kind of confused as to why you are confused on how ebooks work? They are generally locked to a platform (not device). Kindles work the same way. You get a new Kindle, you can re-download all your books. If you lost a device, you have it remotely wiped.

Most ebooks have DRM... you wouldn't go to Kinkos and photo copy an entire novel and hand out a paper ream to someone to read... but with an ebook you could give that book to 10,000,000 in 10 seconds... it would kill the publishing industry in oh... a day. So some devices allow loans to people who have the same kind of device, some don't allow it at all. Most people wouldn't want to lend an ereader... so, oh well,that person can buy it or go to the library then.
 
But to ease some of your concerns:
*ebooks of all kinds are easily bookmarked.... oh, and that scrap of paper doesn't fall out between the pages to have you lose your place when you drop the book.
e-books and online help tools have been bookmarkable since the mid 80s. And ya know what...they typically stink, are somewhat cumbersome to use (or take numerous clicks/taps to get to) and can just as easily get "reset" as someone losing a piece of paper. Is life perfect? No. There are pros and cons to virtual bookmarks as well as the physical.


*schools that sign on with iPads have a free maintenance program with Apple. Hardware failure? Apple swaps out the iPad.
So my iPad dies with all 11 e-textbooks on it, with all my notes/annotations/bookmarks, etc. and I get a brand new iPad "cleaned/reset/wiped" with nothing of my personalization on it...what a great help!


*If every kid has their own iPad, not really a reason to steal someone else's except to be a jerk... and kids have been doing that for a 100 years with whole back packs!
Ever hear of non-students stealing things? Ever have something stolen out of your car...or your home...or your hotel...I've also had PLENTY of items stolen from my desk/locker in my K-12 years. There are plenty of thieves around.


*Again your age... kids are doing more than half their lessons on computers now. When was the last time you went into a classroom?? They're quite different...
Kids? What kids? 12 year olds? 18? 22 year olds? You've made a HUGE GENERALIZATION with "kids". And yes, I've been to a few schools with 3rd-6th graders and I have to tell you Mr. Knowitall, they're at their desk learning stuff with pens and paper and chalkboards and teachers. I'm not sure where you have seen "kids" sitting in front of computers for 4+ hours a day in school but it's not in the USA. Are educators using computers to help teach computer skills as well as course material? Sure. Are educators devoting more than 50% of lessons on computers? No way, no how. If you have specific examples to back up your broad claims, list them.


*iBooks have been searchable since day 1... might I suggest you download even a sample book of any kind to see how they work? Book marks, highlights, oh.... you can even grab the definition of any word in an ebook without leaving your page, which greatly improves my vocabulary at my age, much less a school kid who otherwise might not take the time to pull a big dictionary off the shelf.
So? And? Yes, I've used ebooks before...one of the pros is searchable content. Your point is?

*Notes in the margin of a school book? I think that was always a no no, writing in your books in public school, since other people use them the next year. If I recall, kids take notes in notebooks along side their text books... some old school ideas still are relevant.
If I own the book, it's mine. During both MY high school and college times, I paid and owned the books. Sure, I usually took notes in a notebook like everyone else...but putting notes in the margins of the book is and was a common practice for someone who owns the book. And in before high school when I was loaned free books for 7th and 8th grade, every single used book that I got had notes inside it. Most of them were pretty valuable.


*The practice tests in books you mentioned... again, you were never supposed to write in your book and had to record your answer on a seperate piece of paper, right? Well, in this format, a resettable quiz would easily be dropped into the text, and instead of passing your paper to the person behind you for a group check the answers, everyone would get an immediate score. In fact, the app could even generate a study guide for the student on the items they need more study/practice with.
Never say never. There were plenty of books that the teacher said "turn to page ___ and answer the 5 questions"...and since I owned the book, I answered them in the book. In fact, it was very helpful for open-book tests such as Biology. No need to go searching through my notebook for Page 15's Q&A.


*As for upgrades and compatibility, what do you think schools currently do with computers? They test new software or updates on them before rolling them out to every computer in the school. (Just like your IT department does at work.) Don't forget, the focus is K-12... these kids turn their iPads in at the end of each year. Apple also gives the school these docking carts that iPads get plugged into... you know, for mass updates and refreshes. Beyond K-12, you're dealing with adults who shouldn't have these concerns and would be more responsible. They're already using tablets and laptops anyway.
You truly live in some kind of utopian society where everything is perfect and works 100.000000% as designed and is flawless and turnaround time for any problems is 8 seconds. It seems you may have never owned an iOS device and attempted to update/upgrade an app only to find out that there are some bugs or incompatibilities in some very certain situations. Again, if you truly believe all this "support and testing" is some kind of perfected task (especially with government employees!) you are in for the surprise of your life.
 
I've downloaded some of the textbook, and they are worth the money. My five year old is already browsing through the books and asking questions. What else could I hope for? Interactive beats static any time.

Amazing. Well done apple!

Can't way for iPad3 with high def screens and faster processors. Textbooks where created with iPad3 in mind.
 
Again, if you truly believe all this "support and testing" is some kind of perfected task (especially with government employees!) you are in for the surprise of your life.

Dude, NOBODY is saying that.

NOBODY.

The most anybody has said is that the level of problems is not very high, and comparable to the level of problems (that's level, not type) that already exist in the current system.
 
Until real content is there - iBooks 2.0 are pretty much vaporware. Oh yes - there are a few titles there now. But no school, college or student is going to benefit from these textbooks until there is a wealth of content and the iPad can be used for MANY classes - not just one here and there.

Baby steps for sure. I'd imagine we're quite a few years from having any real adoption rate.
 
When I open my iBooks here in Sweden, I am missing like 6-10 categories (including textbooks) compared to the categories view in the keynote. Is this education thing US only? Why? Will it come to other countries? When? I haven't seen ANY information about this.
 
love the ideal of having textbooks on the ipad. but, i do not think there is enough money for this, especially in california where the schools are already crippled with budget cuts.
 
I fear the future of a world where fun and education go hand in hand. Hurry, somebody come up with a good reason that this won't work! Please!

iPads are good for nothing!!!

Sent from my iPad
 
In many cases, the teachers aren't honoring school policy, which always trumps their personal policy. Aside from exams, there is no reason for such things. You can't cheat on a lecture.

Also, when a school adopts a program, it's impossible for the teacher to NOT be on board with it. If your university adopted the iPad as a text book source, I don't think you'd have worries. I also think your college is a minority in this.



Yes, and when you were in school did they still teaching typing on the typewriter? Show presentations on slide projectors? Waste paper and money on using the "ditto" machine?

All an iPad does is eliminate 20 things in the classroom and puts them into one object. This also in the long run would save schools TONS of money, allowing schools to use their budget for other things... like hey, arts programs that so many schools have had to cut? Computers began taking over classrooms in the 80's... today, many kindergaten's require kids to be familiar with a keyboard, mouse, and web browser. If something expands upon learning, that's never a bad thing.

It's not like kids are playing Angry birds in class on their school issued iPads. Those things are blocked. It's not about being entertained. 3rd graders really won't be streaming cartoon network... really.

As for your expectations, maybe don't think so big? It takes publishing companies years to compile printed text books... I don't know why anyone would think in a few months of talks all the publishers would be ready to unleash every text book known to man on the iPad.


I think you are assuming students would be able to use the iPad like they could if it belonged to them.
There are already public schools who have iPads for students... they're not allowed to download anything they want on them. The schools actually are able to block all that stuff... This leaves ample room even on a 16GB since they don't have music and video files hogging the hard drive.

Some classes, like a high school lit class, this would be even better. Those books are all public domain, and schools could skip buying a text book entirely. Those books take up mb's, not gigs. And not every text book is going to have media on every single page of the book... that was just a demo.

I think this^ is a fairly accurate portrayal of how things really are now days. Most kids(we will say 18&under for HS purposes) don't see the iPad and iPhone as cool, fun new gadgets like we do. They have grown up learning with tech. When i first went back to school 2.5 years ago to finish up my BS and work on my masters, i was amazed at how much technology was used in school now. Everything, from my History classes, to my calculus classes, were conducted online. Even if you had class in a physical classroom, you would still turn in the HW online. I was stunned to find out I would be turning in calculus HW online. I thought "how the hell can i type in all the complex answers with goofy looking symbols and all this crap" well, it is actually much simpler than just writing it out on paper IMO.

As for people saying that a lot of professors not allowing internet ready devices in class..PSHHH. I have seen nothing but the exact opposite of that. Almost everyone has a iPad, Galaxy Tab, MacBook, something along those lines. I was against doing everything online until i realized how much it can simplify the process if you let it. i think that apple is moving in the right direction. The major hurdle here IMO is getting the content into the store. I used the KNO app last semester and my iPad and it was great. I didnt need a backpack, and while the iPad wasnt the best to read a book off of, it wasn't a major obstacle. If we can get digital textbooks for even half the price of the hard copy, im all for it. Once you go to a university and realize that some of these books can be over $200 a piece, you will be looking for something, anything to save you a few books. If the iPad and iBooks can save me a few dollars, or my kids a few in the future, i am all for it.

Sorry about my grammar and the fact that this was almost incoherent. Im in a huge hurry.
 
So my iPad dies with all 11 e-textbooks on it, with all my notes/annotations/bookmarks, etc. and I get a brand new iPad "cleaned/reset/wiped" with nothing of my personalization on it...what a great help!

I assume all your notes/annotations/bookmarks are synced to your iCloud account. So if you get a new iPad, you just sign in with your Apple ID and everything gets downloaded and you proceed as if nothing happened. Magical, aint it?:D:apple:
 
Yes, and when you were in school did they still teaching typing on the typewriter? Show presentations on slide projectors? Waste paper and money on using the "ditto" machine?
As others have pointed out, you make some pretty insulting assumptions about me and my position. If you really must know, when I was in school we in fact DID use computers (almost always Apple IIs). We played games, when appropriate, like Number Munchers. I loved them so much so that I've gone on to make a career out of it.

All you've done with the above statement is commit the fallacy of ad hominem. You've implied that I'm some sort of old fart, and since old farts know anything about new technology, my specific criticism about this particular technology is not worth considering. To this I reply that I am NOT and old fart (not yet anyway), and that even if I were, that would have no bearing on the validity of my point.

All an iPad does is eliminate 20 things in the classroom and puts them into one object. This also in the long run would save schools TONS of money, allowing schools to use their budget for other things... like hey, arts programs that so many schools have had to cut? Computers began taking over classrooms in the 80's... today, many kindergaten's require kids to be familiar with a keyboard, mouse, and web browser. If something expands upon learning, that's never a bad thing.
Notice that I didn't say that iPads don't have their benefits to schools and students. They have plenty of them. But to pretend that using iPads in the classroom creates nothing but good is shortsighted and naive.

It's not like kids are playing Angry birds in class on their school issued iPads. Those things are blocked. It's not about being entertained. 3rd graders really won't be streaming cartoon network... really.
You're not looking at the big picture. What happens to those 3rd graders get to college and they have to read through calculus and philosophy books? Even if they're on an iPad, I would be willing to bet that there aren't going to be too many wonderful photographs, videos, or slide shows in the chapters about differential equations or the morality of suicide. Those students won't know what to do with themselves because up until that point they've been entertained every moment of their lives. Then they WILL be playing Angry Birds.

Why do I know this? Because it's already happening. My wife is a college professor, and every semester she has students who answer their phone in the middle of class without making any attempt to go outside. Then when she asks them to leave they become angry and abusive toward her. These are kids who didn't grow up with iPads as constant companions. What are the ones who do going to be like?

As for your expectations, maybe don't think so big? It takes publishing companies years to compile printed text books... I don't know why anyone would think in a few months of talks all the publishers would be ready to unleash every text book known to man on the iPad.
I wasn't expecting anything to be ready right away, but I was hoping to see an avenue where the textbooks would be written to cater to the two or three largest states (as another poster alluded to). And that may be here, but I was hoping the path forward would have been a little more clear.


I think you are assuming students would be able to use the iPad like they could if it belonged to them.
There are already public schools who have iPads for students... they're not allowed to download anything they want on them. The schools actually are able to block all that stuff...
I know you weren't responding to me on this one, but I think you highlight the difference in our thinking here. Sure, students wouldn't be able to download Angry Birds or whatever. But what we're doing is creating the expectation that learning is first and foremost about entertainment. And if that's the expectation, then when a student finds herself in a situation that's NOT entertaining, well then it must not be educational either.

Old school, make room for new school...

Welcome new school, whish I had known thee in my days of old, but glad you're here for my kids and my own continuing education efforts...

This is a glimpse of the future of learning, and it is bright!

Again, I'm not saying that there isn't room for technology in the classroom. I think we should embrace it in the classroom. However, HOW we embrace it matters greatly. I don't think creating the expectation that all educational material is going to be chock full of "rich media experiences" all the time is the right way to go.

I'll close with a bit of a rant. Why the HELL does a textbook need a Planet Earth style, dramatic, introductory video that plays every time you open it?! How does that enhance anyone's education?
 
Why do I know this? Because it's already happening. My wife is a college professor, and every semester she has students who answer their phone in the middle of class without making any attempt to go outside. Then when she asks them to leave they become angry and abusive toward her. These are kids who didn't grow up with iPads as constant companions. What are the ones who do going to be like?

That's just bad parenting. I fail to see how an iPad in the right hands can't make a dedicated student learn faster. Why handicap the hard-working students because 90% of the other ones prefer to play Angry Birds?
 
UK Educational Market.

"And a big LOL at Apple fans that think this is going to change anything. School systems dont have money to invest in this. They're cutting programs, and Apple fanboys think all of a sudden every student is going to be given free or discounted iPads. How hilariously out of touch."

As a teacher I'm afraid you're right, there simply isn't the cash and to be honest UK education is based on a MS culture anyway. That mixture of cost and culture will be hard to break and will require real vision and enterprise to change. To push change will take something unmissable, something educationally astonishing which has a USP like it allows data to be collected from the books end of chapter question banks or something like that. Just being Apple in the grand scheme of educational ICT isn't that big a deal. It's got to deliver something compelling. If the textbooks I've seen on the UK site are anything to go by, I'm seriously underwhelmed. It's a lot of eye candy with little real educational value. Sorry chaps, believe me, I want this to work but the offering so far is very far from convincing and just doesn't cut it. :(
 
First thing I wanted to do was highlight text in PDF's. Still not possible. What Apple, you don't think students use PDFs? I'm disappointed
 
That's just bad parenting. I fail to see how an iPad in the right hands can't make a dedicated student learn faster. Why handicap the hard-working students because 90% of the other ones prefer to play Angry Birds?

That's an oversimplification. Some of it is bad parenting, and some of it is the conditioning of society. We've created a generation that believes no matter what they do, or how badly they behave they're the greatest people on the planet. Why? Because mommy argued with their teachers whenever they got bad grades, and they got trophies in soccer even though they never won a game.

There's actually several books about this (imagine that); a good one being Generation Me by Jean M. Twenge.
 
For those having doubts about people wanting to read textbooks on an iPad screen, keep in mind that the kids who would be using the digital textbooks are already reading/texting/etc on their cell phone screen nearly 24/7.

The mentality of the younger generation is generally quite accepting of reading virtually any amount of text on a screen, and most of those screen are orders of magnitude lower in quality vs. an iPad screen.

One thing's for sure, all these kids are going to have eye strain for a while if they go from computer to smart phone to tablet this much.
 
First thing I wanted to do was highlight text in PDF's. Still not possible. What Apple, you don't think students use PDFs? I'm disappointed

There's an app for that.

In fact, a lot. One of them is called PDF Expert. It's a great app.
 
That's an oversimplification. Some of it is bad parenting, and some of it is the conditioning of society. We've created a generation that believes no matter what they do, or how badly they behave they're the greatest people on the planet. Why? Because mommy argued with their teachers whenever they got bad grades, and they got trophies in soccer even though they never won a game.

There's actually several books about this (imagine that); a good one being Generation Me by Jean M. Twenge.

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2006/jun/discipline062006.html

Did you discover why that was?

Research shows that starting at an early age--even before Japanese children enter school--Japanese mothers, in particular, emphasize that you should not tease others or hit others, because it hurts them and not because you will get spanked or get a time-out. So, I think what motivated the Japanese children's behavior, to a large extent, would be the feelings of guilt and empathy--the feelings that “I've hurt somebody else, and I feel responsible for it,” as opposed to calculated decisions of whether or not I'll get caught, with the assumption that if I don't get caught, it's OK to do that.
 
As others have pointed out, you make some pretty insulting assumptions about me and my position. If you really must know, when I was in school we in fact DID use computers (almost always Apple IIs). We played games, when appropriate, like Number Crunchers. I loved them so much so that I've gone on to make a career out of it.

All you've done with the above statement is commit the fallacy of ad hominem. You've implied that I'm some sort of old fart, and since old farts know anything about new technology, my specific criticism about this particular technology is not worth considering. To this I reply that I am NOT and old fart (not yet anyway), and that even if I were, that would have no bearing on the validity of my point.


Notice that I didn't say that iPads don't have their benefits to schools and students. They have plenty of them. But to pretend that using iPads in the classroom creates nothing but good is shortsighted and naive.


You're not looking at the big picture. What happens to those 3rd graders get to college and they have to read through calculus and philosophy books? Even if they're on an iPad, I would be willing to bet that there aren't going to be too many wonderful photographs, videos, or slide shows in the chapters about differential equations or the morality of suicide. Those students won't know what to do with themselves because up until that point they've been entertained every moment of their lives. Then they WILL be playing Angry Birds.

Why do I know this? Because it's already happening. My wife is a college professor, and every semester she has students who answer their phone in the middle of class without making any attempt to go outside. Then when she asks them to leave they become angry and abusive toward her. These are kids who didn't grow up with iPads as constant companions. What are the ones who do going to be like?


I wasn't expecting anything to be ready right away, but I was hoping to see an avenue where the textbooks would be written to cater to the two or three largest states (as another poster alluded to). And that may be here, but I was hoping the path forward would have been a little more clear.



I know you weren't responding to me on this one, but I think you highlight the difference in our thinking here. Sure, students wouldn't be able to download Angry Birds or whatever. But what we're doing is creating the expectation that learning is first and foremost about entertainment. And if that's the expectation, then when a student finds herself in a situation that's NOT entertaining, well then it must not be educational either.



Again, I'm not saying that there isn't room for technology in the classroom. I think we should embrace it in the classroom. However, HOW we embrace it matters greatly. I don't think creating the expectation that all educational material is going to be chock full of "rich media experiences" all the time is the right way to go.

I'll close with a bit of a rant. Why the HELL does a textbook need a Planet Earth style, dramatic, introductory video that plays every time you open it?! How does that enhance anyone's education?

I would argue that there *should* be a rich media experience most of the time. I can't think of a course where that wouldn't be helpful. Human brains are capable of learning through a wide variety of experience, so why should we expect such a massive amount of information to be funneled through text-only?

Don't you agree that we should *want* our youth to have great expectations for what they should experience in classrooms? Shouldn't we learn so much more through interaction and being awake in all of our senses?

I'm not saying that law textbooks should be filled with 3D images of frogs, etc. but there can be tangible exercises/sample quizzes, or even live updates with real world examples that help illustrate the books' concepts, such as videos of court cases. Perhaps interactive elements where live video discussions/studygroups/ note sharing between students can take place around the world, 24/7.

Nobody's claiming that the content shouldn't be carefully chosen to cater to the subject. Perhaps video intros will start to feel unnecessary and antiquated, fast. But you can't possibly say that we shouldn't be exploring our new tech and trying to utilize it to educate our people in new ways.

This is obviously an extremely profound development in education. More so than what the political system has done in 50 years, if you ask me.
 
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