Hands-On With Apple's New 16-Inch MacBook Pro

[theluggage]

Throughout nearly 20 years of owning a laptop of some description (often two, a personal and a work-provided machine), I've always had to carry some set of dongles of one type or another.

Which is absolutely true - there are still people who could make good use of a VGA port for giving presentations in meeting rooms that were state-of-the-art in 1998. (At my previous workplace, HDMI projectors appeared at just about the same time that Apple dropped HDMI from the MBP... D'oh!). Personally, I'd prefer a laptop with ethernet, too - but 2012 called and asked for their whinge back. Some people use CF cards... but you have to draw the line somewhere. Most of us have already accepted that a 1987 VGA connector doesn't belong on a modern laptop.

The debate is really over where Apple have decided to draw the line, and the connectors in question are things like HDMI, SD and USB-A which are all relatively modern, slim connectors (cf VGA/DVI/Ethernet/CF) that other manufactures manage to fit into sleek, modern laptops, and which still feature as the main interface on brand-new peripherals. Apple is trying to declare them "legacy" when they simply aren't.

The other reason for resistance to USB-C is that - with the exception of some of the new Thunderbolt 3 capabilities - USB-C didn't improve on USB, DisplayPort, HDMI in the way that (say) HDMI and DVI offered far higher quality displays than VGA, or TB 1/2 offered significantly faster speeds than USB3. USB over USB-C is still the same, single USB 3.1 stream as you'd get from a USB-A port (and, yes, 10Gbps USB3.1g2 does work on USB-A). Your multi-port adapter is running GB Ethernet, SD and USB 3 off a single USB3 stream (or, if its configured to support 4k video, make that a USB 2 stream as USB-C can't carry 4k@60Hz and USB 3 at the same time). So for many people, there was no real upside in switching to USB-C.

With my 13" 2017 MBP, I just need the one USB-C multiport adapter and I'm covered. I carry fewer dongles around with me now.

You're obviously not the one in the party expected to bring enough spare dongles/cables for everybody (or supply them to visitors). As far as I'm concerned VGA dongles are a consumable

 

[turbineseaplane]

Yeah!! Navi GPU! This means Apple won't pull Navi support from the OS. They could, of course, only support the 5700 if it is connected to PCIe3.0 4x.

(...us Hackintosh users): "Yeah baby!!"

 

[AppleZilla]

I get mine the 25th. 8 Core / 32GB RAM / 8GB GPU / 1TB SSD

Mine comes Nov 26 - Nov 29. Really hoping its before Thanksgiving so I can set it up that day. 2.4GHz 8‑core / 64GB RAM / 8GB GPU / 4TB SSD. Giving my wife my 2016 15-inch MBP.

 

[steveaburns]

I guess I’m in the minority, I love the butterfly keyboard glad to hear the new keyboard has similar feedback and feel.

I thought the 2019 MBP butterfly keyboard was great... really nice feel, could type fast. I did however miss the real escape key (for development, mostly vi bindings), and found the NON inverted-t to be hard to easily navigate to... So I guess I would have been very happy with the 2019 MBP butterfly keyboard if apple just added the escape and inverted-t back.

 

[fishmoose]

If you were interested in a bigger screen, then everything else that comes in the base model would just be a bonus and the additional expense going from a from a 13" to 16" would be justified by the bigger screen.

If your not really motivated to move to a bigger screen, then I would try and hold off until the 13" is revised. I would think the 13" would be revised fairly soon? I know there is data out there that shows Apples trends with timelines on these things.

I don't think we'll see the 13” models revised until Spring and I needed it faster than that. I’ve had both a 13” and a 15” and I was much happier with the 15”. Pretty much settled on the 16” base model now.

 

[SBlue1]

To everybody talking how nobody needs a SD card slot, its not just a convenient medium for video and photo pros, its also a cheap and simple way to expand your storage. I have a 80 Euros 500 Gig SD card as a second drive in my old MacBook Pro.

 

[MrGuder]

For me my MacBook Air is far better for travelling and quick work. I think a new Air would suit more people now the weight has gone up on this Pro and the battery life is worse than the Air.

The only real need for this is if you video edit or graphic design and move about, otherwise go for the Air.

Or larger screen, does the Air come in 15”/16”?

 

[Vjosullivan]

Hmmm why does Windows release an update every other month

iOS has had eight updates in the last two months. Are you suggesting that Microsoft are not releasing enough Windows updates?

 

[gugy]

New to this site are you?

Hahaha, I wish. I get your point.

 

[bsolar]

Or larger screen, does the Air come in 15”/16”?

No, it doesn't, 13" only which is a deal-breaker for those wanting at least 15" but not needing the power of a MacBook Pro and thus not willing to pay such a high price.

 

[aaronhead14]

MBP is targeted to a lot of different pro users. I’d be very surprised if pro photogs/filmmakers comprised even 10% of the MBP customer base.

Not only that, SD cards are not the only format pros use. As has been mentioned many times—but you ignore it—Compact Flash, CFast, CFexpress, XQD and several other formats are used by pros.

Including only SD format helps only some pros, since many need other formats; SD only covers a subset of what they need, so they are already carrying the adapters they need.

Sure, you want an SD card. We get it. But a single-digit percentage of the userbase doesn’t drive the feature set for the other 90%. You’re not entitled to an SD card reader. You can bitch for the next five, ten or fifteen years but don’t be surprised when people tell you you’re being ridiculous.

SD is by FAR the most common, non-proprietary card. Everyone can see that. CompactFlash is getting pretty ancient, and CFast is very pricey and is really only for people shooting on Alexa (or similar cameras). And then *of course* Apple wouldn’t include proprietary readers.

SD has always been the obvious choice for a built-in card reader.

 

[Polpol1]

As a former audio engineer at the beginning of the video I immediately noticed the bad sound quality of the voice. Wondered what had happened to the microphone. Then heard it was the build in microphone of the MacBook. So... not impressed about that part of the laptop.

 

[PickUrPoison]

As a former audio engineer at the beginning of the video I immediately noticed the bad sound quality of the voice. Wondered what had happened to the microphone. Then heard it was the build in microphone of the MacBook. So... not impressed about that part of the laptop.

As a former audio engineer I’m surprised you didn’t attribute the reverberance/bass resonance to the room It would have been nice if he’d taken the MBP outside and recorded some stuff there.

But I did hear some occasional overload distortion in this video, though not in other videos that also used the built-in mics of this new 16” MBP ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[theorist9]

(At my previous workplace, HDMI projectors appeared at just about the same time that Apple dropped HDMI from the MBP... D'oh!). ....

The debate is really over where Apple have decided to draw the line, and the connectors in question are things like HDMI, SD and USB-A which are all relatively modern, slim connectors (cf VGA/DVI/Ethernet/CF) that other manufactures manage to fit into sleek, modern laptops, and which still feature as the main interface on brand-new peripherals. Apple is trying to declare them "legacy" when they simply aren't.

Yes, very well-said. It would be really nice to quantify this, which would bring substance to this discussion. I.e, take my 2014 MBP. It has 6 ports, plus power and an audio jack. It's considered too big by Apple's current standards, which I understand.

So here's my question: We're assuming the reason Apple provides, on the current MBP, 4 USB-C, rather than, say, 4 USB-C plus one HDMI and one USB-A (i.e., 6 ports, like on my machine) is that the two added ports would add too much volume to the machine.

But how much volume would they actually add, i.e., how much larger would the machine have to be? I think we can further assume any added volume wouldn't be accomodated with added length or width, but rather added thickness. So more precisely, how much thicker would it need to be? Then the tradeoff could be more precisely articulated, e.g., would you accept an extra 0.1 mm (or whatever it is) for the added ports?

I don't know the volumes these ports require, but perhaps someone here does.

 

[Abazigal]

Yes, very well-said. It would be really nice to quantify this, which would bring substance to this discussion. I.e, take my 2014 MBP. It has 6 ports, plus power and an audio jack. It's considered too big by Apple's current standards, which I understand.

So here's my question: We're assuming the reason Apple provides, on the current MBP, 4 USB-C, rather than, say, 4 USB-C plus one HDMI and one USB-A (i.e., 6 ports, like on my machine) is that the two added ports would add too much volume to the machine.

But how much volume would they actually add, i.e., how much larger would the machine have to be? I think we can further assume any added volume wouldn't be accomodated with added length or width, but rather added thickness. So more precisely, how much thicker would it need to be? Then the tradeoff would be more precisely articulated, e.g., would you accept an extra 0.1 mm (or whatever it is) for the added ports?

I don't know the volumes these ports require, but perhaps someone here does.

All other things equal, could Apple simply not have gone with 6 USB-C ports instead of that extra HDMI and USB-A port?

I don’t see this as an either or situation. Given the versatility of USB-C, it just doesn’t make sense to include any other port in a laptop.

 

[0x0x0x0]

All other things equal, could Apple simply not have gone with 6 USB-C ports instead of that extra HDMI and USB-A port?

No, electronic engineering nightmare---you'd have to split off usb-c from a TB3 chip!

 

[Abazigal]

No, electronic engineering nightmare---you'd have to split off usb-c from a TB3 chip!

So if I understand you correctly, 4 usb-c ports is the logical maximum due to chip constraints, but one can still add a HDMI or USB without being affected by this constraint?

If that’s the case, I can see a case for HDMI being added, though I still don’t see Apple walking back on this decision due to what I have come to call “design purity”.

 

[GadgetBen]

Or larger screen, does the Air come in 15”/16”?

If you can prove this makes a significant difference on daily general use then I might consider caring for you opinion.

Weight in my bag and how it fits easily in my bag is more important.

 

[0x0x0x0]

So if I understand you correctly, 4 usb-c ports is the logical maximum due to chip constraints, but one can still add a HDMI or USB without being affected by this constraint?

If that’s the case, I can see a case for HDMI being added, though I still don’t see Apple walking back on this decision due to what I have come to call “design purity”.

The CPU has 16 PCIe lanes, USB-C (3.1) needs 10Gbps (TB3 reserves 10Gbps off bandwidth to guarantee that speed, TB3 is a big marketing gimmick anyway, the most you're gonna get is 22Gbps (4xPCIe 3 lanes less 10Gbps for USB-C)). The thing is, you can run ethernet off the chipset, even NVMe, but you get at most 4 PCIe lanes between the CPU and the chipset---so the engineering fun is where do you allocate the speed?

 

[theluggage]

So if I understand you correctly, 4 usb-c ports is the logical maximum due to chip constraints, but one can still add a HDMI or USB without being affected by this constraint?

Well, they're not affected by PCIe lanes, but each pair of TB3 ports also needs 2 DisplayPort streams, so it comes down to how many of those the GPU can support, or whether additional switching circuitry would be needed (pretty common on other laptops/graphics cards that you can't use all the outputs at once). Lets just say you're probably not gonna be able to run the internal display, two 5k externals and plug in a HDMI projector.

Pretty sure the MBP could not sustain another full-featured TB3/USB-C port, or even a 3.1g2 USB-A port but I wouldn't like to speculate whether or not it could be stretched to a few more USB3, SD or HDMI ports without a lot of detail of the MBP internals. However, I think there's an element of "if I were going to the Post Office I wouldn't start from here" about trying to kludge more ports into an already set-in-stone design:

In 2016, Apple decided that they were going to have four full-fat TB3-enabled USB-C ports on the MBP and nothing else. The trouble with TB3/USB-C ports is that they each take a lot of resources and plumbing.

Personally, I think a far better approach would have been to just "upgrade" the two TB2 ports of the 2015 to TB3/USB-C and keep the USB-A, HDMI and SD - and I think everybody would have been happy - it would still be better connectivity than any Windows laptop I've seen and you'd have your multi-port adapters and docks if you wanted them. Unfortunately, now, the superusers have had a sniff of the 4xTB3 and 80 Gbps idea, any such configuration will be derided as a "downgrade" because you could no longer connect dual 5k displays, a 10 Gig Ethernet adapter and a TB3 SATA RAID array (although you would be able to read a USB stick without rummaging for a dongle).

 

[0x0x0x0]

Well, they're not affected by PCIe lanes, but each pair of TB3 ports also needs 2 DisplayPort streams, so it comes down to how many of those the GPU can support, or whether additional switching circuitry would be needed (pretty common on other laptops/graphics cards that you can't use all the outputs at once). Lets just say you're probably not gonna be able to run the internal display, two 5k externals and plug in a HDMI projector.

Pretty sure the MBP could not sustain another full-featured TB3/USB-C port, or even a 3.1g2 USB-A port but I wouldn't like to speculate whether or not it could be stretched to a few more USB3, SD or HDMI ports without a lot of detail of the MBP internals. However, I think there's an element of "if I were going to the Post Office I wouldn't start from here" about trying to kludge more ports into an already set-in-stone design:

In 2016, Apple decided that they were going to have four full-fat TB3-enabled USB-C ports on the MBP and nothing else. The trouble with TB3/USB-C ports is that they each take a lot of resources and plumbing.

What are you on about? TB3 chip marshalls 4x PCIe 3 lanes into one TB3 port (32Gbps, then multiplexes 8Gbps of exclusive video bandwidth on top to get your 40Gbps); on top of that, TB3 controllers reserve 10Gbps exclusively for USB-C. If the video bandwidth exceeds 8Gbps, then that eats into the "slack" bandwidth. the Intel CPU Apple uses only has 16 PCIe lanes, and that needs to be shared with the eGPU*, so I wouldn't be surprised if four ports were really two ports off two chips... Apple made a stupid decision of putting video through TB2 on the Trashcan, and carry on wasting useable bandwidth by multiplexing video into TB3 especially with 4K/5K and now 8K displays, way better to use DisplayPort Alt mode of USB-C!

Edit: *embedded GPU

Personally, I think a far better approach would have been to just "upgrade" the two TB2 ports of the 2015 to TB3/USB-C and keep the USB-A, HDMI and SD - and I think everybody would have been happy - it would still be better connectivity than any Windows laptop I've seen and you'd have your multi-port adapters and docks if you wanted them. Unfortunately, now, the superusers have had a sniff of the 4xTB3 and 80 Gbps idea, any such configuration will be derided as a "downgrade" because you could no longer connect dual 5k displays, a 10 Gig Ethernet adapter and a TB3 SATA RAID array (although you would be able to read a USB stick without rummaging for a dongle).

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 80Gbps, who are you kidding, you have no idea what TB3 is 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Maxiumum data (non USB-C) you can squeze out of an independent TB3 port is 22Gbps, each *independent* TB3 port *requires* 4 x PCIe 3 lanes, the CPU only has 16 of those lanes, guessing that the NVMe is fed through the chipset, you still can't have enough lanes for four *independent* TB3 ports and embedded GPU, even if you're feeding two of those ports through the chipses, DMI3 is at most 4x PCIe 3 lanes, which means you're sharing two TB3 ports plus NVMe on those four lanes! Here, at least learn to look past Apple's "marketing": https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/Thunderbolt3_TechBrief_FINAL.pdf

 

[heretiq]

In your post you expressly state that the benefit of your switching to Apple's ecosystem was that instead of carrying a ton of gear you use iphone, verbatim: "*I* don’t need to spend thousands of dollars for bulky gear that I have to lug around allow to occasionally take a better photo than I can with my iPhone." Now tell me what is one to infer other than "I used to take photos with different lenses and expensive camera, and now I use iPhone"??? You're taking my words out of context and trying to spin them now that you've shown to be for what you are. The best way to counter what I said was to say what else you do with your "Pro"-geared Apple gear, to date, you utterly fail to do so---all you're capable of is twisting my words.

There is nothing to infer. The statement is unambiguous: *I* find the iPhone preferable to lugging around expensive, bulky camera gear for the occasional benefit of taking a better photo than my iPhone can. Period. Why do I need to defend myself by telling you what else I use Apple gear for — simply because you chose to make a contrived argument by concocting a baseless assumption that my most important use of Apple gear is taking photos with my iPhone. Such behavior is transparently childish. And expecting anyone to be fooled by such a sophomoric attempt to save face is silly.

 

[Macbookprodude]

What happens when the SSD gets damaged how much does it cost to replace? What if you purchased the MBP with only 16-32GB of ram and you want to update to 64GB??

YOU CAN'T ! You are stuck with it.. another plus for my 2012 Macbook Pro with 16GB and 2 2 TB hard drives. I don't need anything else.. I like upgradability.

 

[PickUrPoison]

SD is by FAR the most common, non-proprietary card. Everyone can see that. CompactFlash is getting pretty ancient, and CFast is very pricey and is really only for people shooting on Alexa (or similar cameras). And then *of course* Apple wouldn’t include proprietary readers.

SD has always been the obvious choice for a built-in card reader.

Even if every single pro photog and filmmaker only needed SD and no other format, there’s still nowhere near enough of them in the customer base to drive the requirements for 100% of buyers.

Why would Apple include something that so little of the user population needs at the expense of the 80 or even 90% of customers who will get nothing out of an SD reader except possibly a smaller battery? Sure those 10-20% might really like it, but everyone pays the price.

Not only that, those folks are already carrying dozens of pieces of gear including many other cables and of course adapters for many things. To hear you complain, you’d think that but for the damn SD card reader adapter they’d be breezing around with no cares in the world and no equipment to haul except that golden MBP with the built-in card reader

Simply put, removing the SD card reader from the MBP makes as close to zero difference in the equipment already stowed in their bags full of gear as I can possibly imagine. They’re carrying kilos and kilos, 10, 20 who knows how many kilos of gear... and a 14 gram SD card reader is the straw that’s going to break the camel’s back?

Do you have any idea how little sense that makes, or how ridiculous it sounds? It seems as if you have really no idea what’s involved in a location shoot.

 

[0134168]

I'm really considering getting this... it's just the lack of useable ports that really puts me off. Basically you buy this computer, and out of the box, it's unusable as a computer. You can't connect it to anything except the charger. So you have to buy these no-name dodgy Chinese designed USB-C docks that slow down your transfer speeds and may or may not work, and they're quite expensive too. Or you can buy a bunch of dongles from Apple (2 USB dongles, HDMI and SD card slot to get you the port selection of the first Retina MacBook Pro), however, their cables will eventually fray from heavy use as they are poorly built. And that's it, there's no really other way to use this computer.

I feel USB-C is like Thunderbolt 1 and 2: Apple is really pushing it but it's just not catching on. It's been 4 years since the release of the first USB-C MacBook and I've yet to come across anything that plugs into this damned port.

So I kind of feel like the only thing I wish for is to be able to upgrade my GPU, CPU and RAM on my 2013 MBP. That's it. The screen is great, the keyboard is great, the thermals are great, and so are the ports. Having to get a whole new computer just to upgrade 2-3 things is really just planned obsolescence.

Oh and for God's sake stop gluing the battery to the case. Please. Why the hell is this a thing? The battery is a consumable, it will eventually have to be replaced. Having to nearly buy a whole new computer just to replace the battery is ridiculous!

Falling back to an older MBP

I just recently switched from a 2018 15″ MBP back to my 2015 13″ and I thought I’d share some of my reactions to the change. My meandering and unstructured thoughts follow. Unexpe…

ericasadun.com