Has Apple quality gone away?...

[sakagura]

Ah, the good old days. If you look back at discussions from then, they look just like discussions from now, with the same kinds of complaints about all sorts of issues, including quality control, durability, bugs, etc. But with time all that fades into a sentimental haze. I miss nonprofit Apple. It was never the same after they moved out of the garage.

Your attempt at logic is faulty and seen your replies to people who have audio problems you're an apologist who tries to derail legit complaints.

In the good old days Apple was on a learning curve so design faults came easy but constant improvements were made. It's now 20 years since the first slim PowerBook G4 was introduced. It's 12 years since unibody and a great keyboard were introduced. Instead of building upon that with improvements they screwed the keyboard, screwed the audio, made their new Macs kernel panic like mad, made the machines so slim that they throttled too easily, removed any chance of increasing internal storage and memory to force you into earlier upgrades.

How does a computer company screw audio and keyboard? These are like the most basic things that were already perfected years ago.

Mac Pro users have now discovered Apple crippled the frame buffer in the graphics drivers so when they add third party graphics cards or eGPU the performance is very reduced. These guys have found patches to problems that Apple could fix themselves if they had any moral backbone or let users download drivers directly from AMD/Nvidia.

The MacBook like today is a lockdown system. It's a quarantined computer. Probably in the future they won't even let you connect an external drive or install your own software outside the app store.

 

[Macbookprodude]

Hello, I am writing this because it is the third macbook pro I get from Bestbuy. The first laptop would not even boot up. the second and third have this weird pop plastic noise randomly coming and going. I remember my first macbook unibody I Bought on 2009. Nothing has gone wrong. My parents still use it for simple things. Even the first gen retina macbook I got it had some dead pixels and other issues. I think apple laptops quality have gone down over the years maybe is just me but what do you guys think?

HELL yeah it’s gone down ! My PB G4 Pismo, 2012 MB Pro, and PB G4 1.67 built very well compared to 2019-2020.

 

[aleni]

Apple used to be at the top of the pile when it came to laptop quality. I just read an article on laptop mag a few days ago that showed they've dropped to 7th place. Lots of issues that you just didn't see in the Jobs era. Tim Cook is all about penny pinching and increasing profits per unit and he's gone with cheaper components. But quality control has gone down the drain too. Look at the iPhone X and how the OS wasn't tuned for the screen ration in many areas. Jobs would never have let that get out the door until those issues were fixed. Cook's just all about profits and to heck with quality.

I remember when I had a white macbook, it had a hardware problem known as random shutdown issue and it couldn’t be fixed at least until 3 months because apple technicians didn’t know how to fix it, they just changed the logic board 4 times and it was still the same. Turned out the thermal sensor that forces the computer to shutdown when it gets too hot was placed too near the processor chip.

Welcome to the thinnest notebook in the world, I spent my hard earned money to buy the first gen macbook air, it was pricey back then with an ssd. I can’t even watch youtube for more than 10 minutes before the cpu throttled down to one core and made everything even the mouse cursor jumpy all over the place.

Retina 2012 macbook pro, the lcd had a ghosting issue, if I position one application window for more than 20 minutes, it produces a ghosting effect like a burn in screen when I move it. It was pissing me off.

Meanwhile all the laptops I got in the past 5 years. A 12” macbook, 2016, 2017 and 2018 macbook pros have been damn fine even though a lot of people experience the keyboard issue. Mine is not existent.

 

[Sanpete]

Anyone who actually reads old enough threads here will be disabused of this sentimental haze. People naturally feel like whatever is bothering them right this second is the worst ever, but that's seldom true.

And what some see as a huge decline, such as the natural effects of making a machine less like a tank, others see as great improvements. But it's often hard for people to see beyond their own subjective preferences.

 

[c0ppo]

And what some see as a huge decline, such as the natural effects of making a machine less like a tank, others see as great improvements. But it's often hard for people to see beyond their own subjective preferences.

I tend to disagree. For example., touchbar is a complete gimmick. Solves no problems, but introduces a few (freezing, hard to see in bright light, you have to look down from the screen to actually use it, etc.).

Keyboards are a mess as well. For more then 4 years (first one in macbook 12) Apple pushed those faulty keyboards. Considering that keyboard is the MAIN input device of this computer, that's a complete failure.

And finally, about that tank comment... You can actually get a lighter device then MBP with way better keyboard, lots of usable ports, and without thermal throttling. So your argument about 'tanks' is kind of dated. Just like those threads and posts you speak of.

 

[Queen6]

I tend to disagree. For example., touchbar is a complete gimmick. Solves no problems, but introduces a few (freezing, hard to see in bright light, you have to look down from the screen to actually use it, etc.).

Keyboards are a mess as well. For more then 4 years (first one in macbook 12) Apple pushed those faulty keyboards. Considering that keyboard is the MAIN input device of this computer, that's a complete failure.

And finally, about that tank comment... You can actually get a lighter device then MBP with way better keyboard, lots of usable ports, and without thermal throttling. So your argument about 'tanks' is kind of dated. Just like those threads and posts you speak of.

Problem is Apple has not resolved issues from over 10 years ago (inadequate cooling) and has introduced others either due to vanity, greed or incompetence.

The Butterfly Keyboard was an unmitigated disaster proving to be unreliable and highly divisive with users. The Touch Bar is Apple's weak response to the ever growing and improving touchscreen capabilities on other OS's as Apple is solely focused on profit; being determined to sell as many time limited devices as possible with zero user upgrade path, as opposed to developing the best hardware it can.

Others marques have spent time and caught up offering well designed slim & light notebooks with far better usability & upgradability without major reliability issues. I stepped away from Apple professionally in 2016 and cant say that I've missed it, as I now have hardware that meets my needs not Apple's.

As anecdotal as it is; 10 years ago the majority I knew were on OS X, 5 years ago fewer mostly on aging hardware, today I don't know any who are employing the Mac professionally? I'll let my old Mac's peter out with no inclination to purchase new Apple hardware for home or work purpose. They are beautifully designed, however they are no longer designed to last and form has very much overtaken function, which especially in many professional roles can be problematic. I was briefly interested in the new 16" until the problems started rising to the surface once again...

Best of all, I don't miss or need to listen to Apple's excuses

Q-6

 

[Sanpete]

I tend to disagree. For example., touchbar is a complete gimmick. Solves no problems, but introduces a few (freezing, hard to see in bright light, you have to look down from the screen to actually use it, etc.).

Keyboards are a mess as well. For more then 4 years (first one in macbook 12) Apple pushed those faulty keyboards. Considering that keyboard is the MAIN input device of this computer, that's a complete failure.

And finally, about that tank comment... You can actually get a lighter device then MBP with way better keyboard, lots of usable ports, and without thermal throttling. So your argument about 'tanks' is kind of dated. Just like those threads and posts you speak of.

Your tendency tends to make my point. The touch bar is something some people really like, and others don't, a matter of personal preference as I said. You can't scrub with function keys ... Like so many others who feel like Apple quality has declined, you confuse your personal preference with objectivity.

Same with the ports.

I don't know what other laptop you have in mind that's lighter without throttling, but I suspect there are just as many complaints about its quality.

It remains there have always, always been major complaints about Mac quality and design choices, and arguments about comparisons to other brands. Other brands have actually improved quite a bit. That doesn't mean Apple quality has declined.

Problem is Apple has not resolved issues from over 10 years ago (inadequate cooling) and has introduced others either due to vanity, greed or incompetence.

The Butterfly Keyboard was an unmitigated disaster proving to be unreliable and highly divisive with users. The Touch Bar is Apple's weak response to the ever growing and improving touchscreen capabilities on other OS's as Apple is solely focused on profit; being determined to sell as many time limited devices as possible with zero user upgrade path, as opposed to developing the best hardware it can.

Others marques have spent time and caught up offering well designed slim & light notebooks with far better usability & upgradability without major reliability issues. I stepped away from Apple professionally in 2016 and cant say that I've missed it, as I now have hardware that meets my needs not Apple's.

As anecdotal as it is; 10 years ago the majority I knew were on OS X, 5 years ago fewer mostly on aging hardware, today I don't know any who are employing the Mac professionally? I'll let my old Mac's peter out with no inclination to purchase new Apple hardware for home or work purpose. They are beautifully designed, however they are no longer designed to last and form has very much overtaken function, which especially in many professional roles can be problematic. I was briefly interested in the new 16" until the problems started rising to the surface once again...

Best of all, I don't miss or need to listen to Apple's excuses

Q-6

You also confuse your preferences with objectivity. You were saying almost all of that 4 years ago, except for the part about the 16". The notion that Apple is now, or was four years ago, only focused on profit, but in some magical past wasn't, is dreamy mythology with no foundation in fact.

 

[calliex]

I remember when I had a white macbook, it had a hardware problem known as random shutdown issue and it couldn’t be fixed at least until 3 months because apple technicians didn’t know how to fix it, they just changed the logic board 4 times and it was still the same. Turned out the thermal sensor that forces the computer to shutdown when it gets too hot was placed too near the processor chip.

Welcome to the thinnest notebook in the world, I spent my hard earned money to buy the first gen macbook air, it was pricey back then with an ssd. I can’t even watch youtube for more than 10 minutes before the cpu throttled down to one core and made everything even the mouse cursor jumpy all over the place.

Retina 2012 macbook pro, the lcd had a ghosting issue, if I position one application window for more than 20 minutes, it produces a ghosting effect like a burn in screen when I move it. It was pissing me off.

Meanwhile all the laptops I got in the past 5 years. A 12” macbook, 2016, 2017 and 2018 macbook pros have been damn fine even though a lot of people experience the keyboard issue. Mine is not existent.

sorry my Retina 2012 macbook pro has never had a problem and I still use it everyday

 

[c0ppo]

You can't scrub with function keys ... Like so many others who feel like Apple quality has declined, you confuse your personal preference with objectivity.

Why would I want to scrub on a physical key? That's not an argument. That's not a positive for touch bar. Scrubing is suddenly important on a Pro device? Then iPad Pro is as pro as it gets. You can scrub all day and night

But I can agree that it's a matter of personal preference.
But quality of apples keyboards for 4 years is objectively the worse on the market. Even worse then those found on 400$ laptops. There is simply no confusion there

I don't know what other laptop you have in mind that's lighter without throttling, but I suspect there are just as many complaints about its quality.

Every laptop will throttle. But it's matter of when will it throttle. For example, I own X1E. It's lighter then MBP 15, and doesn't throttle nowhere near and fast as MBP 15.

And of course you can find complaints for any laptop, x1e included. But at least basic functions work like a charm

 

[Queen6]

Every laptop will throttle. But it's matter of when will it throttle. For example, I own X1E. It's lighter then MBP 15, and doesn't throttle nowhere near and fast as MBP 15.

And of course you can find complaints for any laptop, x1e included. But at least basic functions work like a charm

That's one of the bigger issues, no one expects notebooks to hold full boost, equally they shouldn't be crippled by just plugging in an external display. Bad design plain and simple, more likely playing to a specific target audience where specs matter and performance doesn't.

Touch Bar is what it is, again highly divisive, as others have stated if the Touch Bar was so beneficial to productivity Apple would have integrated it into it's desktops. It's not and remains a shallow excuse as without it Apple is simply selling basic clamshell notebooks in a sea of increasingly useful devices.

The real differentiator was OS X, however that too is feeling Apple's magic touch these days. Maybe things will change with the event of ARM powered Mac's equally the writing is on the wall, with less costing you more. In all fairness Apple is selling mass produced consumer electronics these days with a touch of flair, that likely serves the majority...

Apple's stance on the Butterfly Keyboard is the clearest indicator of just how much Apple values it's Mac focused customers, only took 4 years to resolve, amongst others...

Q-6

 

[Sanpete]

The keyboards were defective, and that's been fixed. Of course some view the time it took as evidence of their mythology, but they don't consider that replacing it required a chassis redesign, not just a replacement of the keyboard. And it made the machine bigger again, something not everyone enjoys.

There are many, many complaints about throttling with the X1E. And in general there are many fewer than there used to be the with 16", mainly in regard to external monitors.

Seems the question should be if Apple quality has increased.

 

[maflynn]

Seems the question should be if Apple quality has increased.

Quality increased? 😅

Lets see some issues from recent history:

• T2 kernel panics
• GPU kernel panics
• Flawed and defective keyboards
• Flexgate
• Staingate
• SSD failures
• Cannot use an external monitor without the fans going full blast and having issues with heat
• Catlina (just too many issues/bugs to list them individually)

You certainly can ask that question, and after the laughter dies down the evidence is quite compelling.

Edit: Two other complaints
screen ghosting and speaker issues, (crackling etc). While the latter seems to be resolved, and the former is not a defect, per say but apple using lower quality or inferior display panels.

 

[calliex]

Quality increased? 😅

Lets see some issues from recent history:

• T2 kernel panics
• GPU kernel panics
• Flawed and defective keyboards
• Flexgate
• Staingate
• SSD failures
• Cannot use an external monitor without the fans going full blast and having issues with heat
• Catlina (just too many issues/bugs to list them individually)

You certainly can ask that question, and after the laughter dies down the evidence is quite compelling.

It is the above reasons that I am clinging to my 2012 rMBP. It has been by far the best Apple machine I have owned. I really never have had a bad machine in all these years. I wish I could go back to when I bought the 2012 MBP and and look at macrumors threads. Back in those days I was not into looking to the net for reviews and opinions. I wonder how much negativety there was or was not. I have been an Apple guy since 1986 and really do not want to switch Windows. Even worked for them for 10 years. Too old switch now.

 

[sdp77]

A minor example: the first 16” MBP I got, the sound was amazing, my reaction was “wow”, it definitely filled the room. Because of different problems, I had to replace the MBP several times. The next three MBPs never had the same sound: it was crisp and clear but no bass, no more room filling sound. I don’t know weather it’s a software adjustment (given the popping sound some people complain about) or they have simply changed the hardware. They should also change the product specs page then. I guess they rely on the fact that people who have not experienced the first batch of 16’ MBPs won’t know the difference anyway.

 

[maflynn]

clinging to my 2012 rMBP. It has been by far the best Apple machine

The 2012 rMBP was the pinnacle of design, performance and quality for apple imo. While its my daughters at this point, my 2012 rMBP is still going strong.

do not want to switch Windows

I switched, and my first hand experience, is that there are a number of computer makers have leaped frogged Apple in a number of ways (design/quality/price/performance)

 

[dudeslife]

Tim Cook is the problem. He has no attention to detail and even less technical knowledge.

 

[maflynn]

Tim Cook is the problem. He has no attention to detail and even less technical knowledge.

I think its more about priorities, back when Steve ran the company they focused on creating awesome products that people bent over backwards to own, with Cook running it, he's more interested in profit margins.

 

[Queen6]

Quality increased? 😅

Lets see some issues from recent history:

• T2 kernel panics
• GPU kernel panics
• Flawed and defective keyboards
• Flexgate
• Staingate
• SSD failures
• Cannot use an external monitor without the fans going full blast and having issues with heat
• Catlina (just too many issues/bugs to list them individually)

You certainly can ask that question, and after the laughter dies down the evidence is quite compelling.

Edit: Two other complaints
screen ghosting and speaker issues, (crackling etc). While the latter seems to be resolved, and the former is not a defect, per say but apple using lower quality or inferior display panels.

Exactly, nor a privilege to have deal with such issues, as you stated it's a matter of priorities and it shows...

Q-6

 

[Sanpete]

Quality increased? 😅

Lets see some issues from recent history:

• T2 kernel panics
• GPU kernel panics
• Flawed and defective keyboards
• Flexgate
• Staingate
• SSD failures
• Cannot use an external monitor without the fans going full blast and having issues with heat
• Catlina (just too many issues/bugs to list them individually)

You certainly can ask that question, and after the laughter dies down the evidence is quite compelling.

Edit: Two other complaints
screen ghosting and speaker issues, (crackling etc). While the latter seems to be resolved, and the former is not a defect, per say but apple using lower quality or inferior display panels.

You took what I said out of its clear context. Maybe one or two of the problems you list is unique to the 16", but as I said, several no longer exist with it. It's an overall improvement.

No 2012 machine can do what the more recent ones can, of course. And of course it did have its own, not minor issues.

Apple Initiates Repair Program for 2011-2013 MacBook Pros With Video Issues

Apple has launched a repair program to fix MacBook Pro machines sold between February 2011 and February 2013 that have problems with distorted video,...

www.macrumors.com

The mythology of the good old days of Apple is based mainly in poor memory.

 

[steve1960]

Just from a more superficial view although I am quite tech savvy. I was dead against Apple products until 2013. I can't recall why I decided to jump in but I did and then began to appreciate the entire ecosystem even with its flaws. I am not a power user and would never even notice throttling issues or many of the other issues that have occurred.

So as a basic user, who is just one of those people who likes the way things tie together I have hardly any complaints having owned various laptops, iPads, iPhones, Apple TV's and accessories. I had a Mac pro 17" never saw a GPU problem, 13" Retina Pro never saw any display issues.

The only hardware issue which concerned me that I have seen in 7 years is an iPad Mini 4 which died last November with a charging circuit problem. Could even have been my fault using an after market charger.

One of the things I most like about Apple products is how long the hardware is supported by the latest OS and that requires hardware reliability to be of benefit. Seems to have worked out OK for me.