Hated 2016 Macbook Pro inititally, convince me otherwise

[Samuelsan2001]

...please point me to the USB-C monitor speakers, the USB-C midi keyboard, the USB-C electronic wind instrument controller, the really cheap double-ended USB-C/USB-A thumb drives (because I have multiple computers and not all of them have USB-C) or prior to this July the desktop Mac with USB-C ports that I could have plugged them in to.

...and then, even if you find one or two examples, explain why USB-C should have been the unique selling point, bearing in mind that none of those devices would benefit from using USB-C and that I'd still need to buy USB-A-to-C adapters if I wanted to use them across all of my computers.

Monitor speakers plug into a monitor?? why would it matter.

Other than that I already pointed you to a hub that would work with all those instruments and controllers and usb sticks at the same time through one cable its very portable and charges your MacBook pro too and will work with any USB C computer, all for $65. I'm assuming you had all those things already why would you buy new ones. The bonus to USB C is the large bandwidth and charging data and video all on one port. Using a hub will be far more convenient than trying to plug every thing into separate ports.

http://target.georiot.com/Proxy.ashx?TSID=3088&GR_URL=https://www.amazon.com/HooToo-Charger-100W-Charging-Output/dp/B06Y3Q8B17/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

 

[Polymorphic]

Keep your 2015.

It is, on balance, better than the 2016 models.

Agreed. My company buys a lot of MacBook Pros. We currently have 2013, 2015 and 2016 models. The 2015 models are less of a hassle than the 2016 in numerous ways.

And to those saying that an 11% surge in Mac sales is because the new MacBook Pro is a slam dunk, think again. My company was holding off on a lot of upgrades due to the age of the 2015 design, as I'm sure were many others. Now that we have 2016 MacBook Pros, they are universally criticized by the employees who have them. An increase in sales doesn't necessarily indicate an increase in customer satisfaction.

 

[eddjedi]

Just as a handful of people moaning on an internet forum doesn't prove the 2015 is better. Less peripheral bandwidth, slower processors, slower RAM, slower SSDs, no touch bar. Better is subjective, more powerful is not.

 

[Queen6]

Some will happily gloss over issues, are simply unaware as they don't consider others workflows, or just overly obsessed with defending Apple. Major issue with USB C is that once you introduce dongles into the mix is that compatibility is not assured, especially from my experience display devices, nor is this confined to Apple.

At the end of the day no one want's to be in the situation where the connection fails, leaving one needing to loan hardware for something as simple as delivering a presentation. The new MBP simply is no longer a viable solution for many for this very reason, let alone several others. I tend to agree with other members as I know of no individuals or companies who have bought and retained the MBP for professional use, with the notebook being too limited and focused as a consumer product.

These days I see more holding onto older hardware or switching to Windows based systems that offer greater flexibility. USB C is indeed the future, equally still a good way off for many. Nor am I against USB C, very much the opposite with my latest notebook being the 4th with the new port, however it also offers mini display port & HDMI ports. As much as we would like to see USB C gain traction, it's not let alone TB-3 there simply isn't the demand. Currently being pretty much a non entity outside of tech forums such as this.

I'm about to travel to deliver a technical summary to a client and you can be assured it wont be a Mac on the desk thx to Apple's ridiculous port solution, as one thing's certain I don't roll the dice on such matters. As for the client I'm fairly confident if they saw any value in converting all their conference centres/rooms to the "new" standard they would, given they have their championship winning F1 cars on display in the lobby...

Apple talks a good "Pro" notebook, however it seems intent on driving professional users away from the platform and from my observation and by Apple's own metrics they are doing a stellar job with now just 15% of the Mac users classified as non recreational users. Moves like this, the flaky keyboard simply push the few left ever further away. Apple desperately wants to be associated with professional users, yet seems incapable of delivering sensible & flexible solutions, preferring to wow the masses with pointlessly thin notebooks, trading off usability and reliability.

Q-6

 

[jgelin]

It is not a fine wine, it gets worse with age... not better. Why look towards a model you've already ruled out as a good fit?

 

[eddjedi]

It's funny that you say, for example, using a VGA dongle at a conference center that only has VGA cables is more of a risk than using a PC that could blue-screen any time or a 3+ year old Mac that could die at any time. I agree that no technology is foolproof, but something as simple as a display dongle is not as prone to failure as you are making out. One thing's for sure, if I was giving a once in a lifetime presentation, I would not be using my Lenovo over my Mac!

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

Nothing's "changed".
The 2017 MBPro's are but an extension of the 2016 design.

If you are happy with the design of the 2015 vis-a-vis that of the 2016-2017, I'd advise you to "settle in" and plan on keeping it for a few more years.

I predict that eventually Apple is going to abandon the new keyboard design, either for the older "tried and true" design of the 2015's, or something else as yet unknown.

But they may actually suffer through one more iteration of the current design before the cost of returns and repairs prods them into a new direction...

 

[Queen6]

It's funny that you say, for example, using a VGA dongle at a conference center that only has VGA cables is more of a risk than using a PC that could blue-screen any time or a 3+ year old Mac that could die at any time. I agree that no technology is foolproof, but something as simple as a display dongle is not as prone to failure as you are making out. One thing's for sure, if I was giving a once in a lifetime presentation, I would not be using my Lenovo over my Mac!

Clearly in a time warp, last I saw a BSOD was around circa W7-SP3, let alone W10 which is more stable than macOS for my needs. I depend on my hardware for a living, so I use what works not what is just designed to impress. Been there thx to Apple and it's poorly implement designs, it's not cool nor does it exude professionalism that you cant even get your notebook to display.

It's not common, equally it only became an issue with Apple switching to USB C and it's enforced dongles. I use my notebooks in business and engineering roles, sadly with Apple's lack of focus on the Mac both stability and reliability has diminished. When involving hardware and software that delvers revenue one doesn't care about the logo on the lid or the OS, just the results...

Q-6

 

[eddjedi]

You might want to lay off the derogatory personal comments, your assumption that most people here only use their $2000 Mac while drinking a skinny latte in Starbucks browsing Facebook might be true for some people, but you're not the only technology professional on this forum. Claiming OS X is unstable or video dongles are prone to failure is nothing more than scaremongering.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Major issue with USB C is that once you introduce dongles into the mix is that compatibility is not assured, especially from my experience display devices

Man you were not kidding…

We have a modern 13 inch around the house due to my spouses work…
And I have gone through five different highly rated Amazon USB-C to DP or MDP cables/adapters trying to get an LG 31MU97 to work and none will so far, at any resolution, do anything but flicker black and alternate back and forth on each screen, never working right. I have spent hours trying to get this to work. Maddening.

This exact same monitor works through a 2015 MacBook Pro 15" mini display port connection flawlessly at 4K/60 Hz.

They've taken something that worked perfectly and made it a complete dongle hunt nightmare.

Seriously - why are there not a fricking myriad of 1st party solutions from Apple to help us easily do with dongles what we used to be able to do with built in ports!??

 

[Queen6]

Man you were not kidding…

We have a modern 13 inch around the house due to my spouses work…
And I have gone through five different highly rated Amazon USB-C to DP or MDP cables/adapters trying to get an LG 31MU97 to work and none will so far, at any resolution, do anything but flicker black and alternate back and forth on each screen, never working right. I have spent hours trying to get this to work. Maddening.

This exact same monitor works through a 2015 MacBook Pro 15" mini display port connection flawlessly at 4K/60 Hz.

They've taken something that worked perfectly and made it a complete dongle hunt nightmare.

Seriously - why are there not a fricking myriad of 1st party solutions from Apple to help us easily do with dongles what we used to be able to do with built in ports!??

Of the mind now that people have to have such issues happen to them directly, then and only then will they see how deep the rabbit hole goes...

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

Man you were not kidding…

We have a modern 13 inch around the house due to my spouses work…
And I have gone through five different highly rated Amazon USB-C to DP or MDP cables/adapters trying to get an LG 31MU97 to work and none will so far, at any resolution, do anything but flicker black and alternate back and forth on each screen, never working right. I have spent hours trying to get this to work. Maddening.

This exact same monitor works through a 2015 MacBook Pro 15" mini display port connection flawlessly at 4K/60 Hz.

They've taken something that worked perfectly and made it a complete dongle hunt nightmare.

Seriously - why are there not a fricking myriad of 1st party solutions from Apple to help us easily do with dongles what we used to be able to do with built in ports!??

Yes, I have several OEM dongles and get varying results in certain scenarios let alone 3rd party ones that maybe of reputable makes as you note

Additionally we focus often on high-end or professional users but there are many on a restricted budget where a MBP is their dream or aspirational laptop. This group is further squeezed financially by the sole inclusion of USB-C and lack of native connectivity especially those that cannot afford the high cost of Apple options on SSD etc.

Over spec'ing with 4xTB3 on a device that's 85% normal consumers is cost born by users not Apple as some seem to imply

There was always a good amount of truth in a Mac just works, I simply do not see it these days outside of Coffee shops LOL

 

[sahnjuro]

Seriously - why are there not a fricking myriad of 1st party solutions from Apple to help us easily do with dongles what we used to be able to do with built in ports!??

Not clear. Apple clearly isn't investing into Macs like they used to. A part of the problem may be that Mac engineers at Apple who can potentially solve these USB-C connectivity issues seem pretty low on the totem pole and have little influence in the chain of command. Another possibility is that there is some issue with the usb-c/thunderbolt port in the redesigned MBPs that doesn't allow for a reliable dongle solutions short of a major redesign, which is unlikely to happen at this stage of the product cycle.

It's no longer Steve Jobs' Apple.

 

[theluggage]

Monitor speakers plug into a monitor??

Duh.

Monitor speakers are a type of speaker with a flat frequency response. Nothing to do with display monitors. USB Monitor speakers have a built-in DAC and connect via USB2 (which is more than fast enough) which is handy since the SPDIF/optical output has also disappeared from newer Macs.

I'm sure that there are types of USB devices that I've never heard of, too. Bet most of them have USB-A, though...

The bonus to USB C is the large bandwidth

Ah, back to USB Alternative Truth mode again. Until computers and peripherals with USB 3.2 (which can double-up USB3.1 lanes) appear, the USB bandwidth of a USB-C port is just the same as the bandwidth of a single USB-A port. If you get a USB-C hub with (say) 3 USB sockets, a SD card and sound then all of those sockets are sharing a single USB 3.1 connection to your Mac. Probably just 5Gbps 3.1g1, at that (its hard to tell without having a particular dock to test).

USB 3.2 has only recently been announced and shouldn't be confused with 10Gbps USB3.1gen2 (which is completely independent of USB-C and can work over USB3 A-connectors) - not that there are that many devices out there that support 3.1gen2, either.

Yes, there is TB3 - same connector, different cables, different peripherals, much better bandwidth. Make that $300 for a dock rather than your $65 USB-C option and, yes, you should get full bandwidth on all the dock's ports.

Yes, USB-C can carry DisplayPort/HDMI - but until USB-C controllers start supporting DP1.4, at 4k@60Hz any USB devices on the same port get throttled to USB 2 speeds. Or, pay the premium for TB3 equipment.

And, yes, there is USB-C charging - except few of the cheaper USB-C hubs deliver enough power for the higher-end MBPs.

...and if Apple had simply upgraded the existing TB2 ports to TB3, we could have had the single-port docking and charging you evidently love and still be able to connect existing stuff directly when we were away from our docking station...
[doublepost=1509920874][/doublepost]

Less peripheral bandwidth, slower processors, slower RAM, slower SSDs, no touch bar.

...all of which could have been added to the 2015 design without throwing out the great keyboard and so-called-legacy connectivity. We could also have enjoyed the improved battery life for general use offered by the new CPUs - instead, Apple have made the battery smaller (...and, surprise, that reduces the life as soon as you move beyond general use)

The "Less peripheral bandwidth" claim depends very much on how many of the 2016's TB3 measly 2-4 I/O ports you clog up with low-bandwidth USB devices and chargers - or displays that could have connected via HDMI and been driven directly by the GPU without affecting your general I/O bandwidth.

Just change the two DisplayPort/TB2 connectors to TB3 (nobodies saying that the new MBP shouldn't have had any TB3/USB-C ports) and we'd have been able to connect a charger, a HDMI display, a SD card, a couple of USB-A devices before we'd even began to tap the potential of 40Gbps of TB3... and (get this) we would still have had the option of single-cable docking if we wanted it.

 

[eddjedi]

Of the mind now that people have to have such issues happen to them directly, then and only then will they see how deep the rabbit hole goes...

Nobody is saying that the things you mention don't happen, I am very aware that things can be defective and/or break even when you spend a lot of money on them. But context is important, your claim that Apple laptops are so unreliable that no professional should use them is simply nonsense. I'm surrounded by professionals in a creative agency using them right now! Sure one of them might require repair occasionally, that's life. Guess what our IT guy opposite me is working on fixing right now? A Lenovo PC laptop.

There's a real sense of entitlement these days that things should never malfunction even though they are vastly more complex than a decade ago. If my MBP develops a fault I'll take it in for repair, just as I do when my car breaks down or my bicycle tyre goes flat. We're not in some utopian universe where nothing ever goes wrong.

 

[Martin29]

There is nothing flashy about the current Apple laptop lineup. They are 100% pure streamlined minimalist function. And thats why they are getting the criticism. Take for example ports: Apple uses up to four TB3 ports, which are infinitely more flexible* than any other setup on the market and can support any kind of application domain. If this is not functional, I don't know what is. The issue with the ports is certainly not the function but 1) added inconvenience if you need to deal with many legacy external devices (e.g. customer's thumdrives) and 2) added cost since you need to purchase new cables to replace your current USB-A to USB-B etc. stuff.

* and also costs Apple significantly more than any other laptop manufacturer who use cut-down thunderbolt chips across the board

I guess 'legacy peripherals' includes iPhone 8 and iPhone X? The need to buy separate adaptors even for the latest Apple products designed to be used in conjunction with the MBP

Let no one be mistaken, this is at least in part, a money grabbing exercise.

 

[leman]

I guess 'legacy peripherals' includes iPhone 8 and iPhone X? The need to buy separate adaptors even for the latest Apple products designed to be used in conjunction with the MBP

Let no one be mistaken, this is at least in part, a money grabbing exercise.

I completely agree, not having USB-C on the latest iOS devices is not excusable and is definitely a money grabbing tactics. Lack of USB-C is probably thinly real criticism I have of my iPhone X. Luckily, most things can be done over wireless, so it doesn't annoy me that much...

P.S. Apple should at least include the USB-C to lightning cable for free... that would have solved this.

 

[eddjedi]

Agreed, the problem here is Lightning on the new iPhones, not USB-C on the new Macs.

 

[creativesmith]

Sadly, have grown to dislike the the new Touch Bar MBPs. (Or perhaps it's just that ours is more of a lemon than an Apple.)

We've sent our 13" inch back to Apple for repairs three times. Cannot recall owning a Mac that was so prone to failure.

One of the batteries was loose, rattled when the MBP was carried.
One of the fans was loose.
The keyboard failed. Several of the keys became stuck, and no amount of compressed air could fix them.
The touch sensor worked only intermittently.
The rear, left USB port fails to mount external drives, though it does allow charging.

The rate at which these issues have occurred is alarming.

Through all of this, I've been disheartened—not by the lovely design of the new MBP, or by the implementation of the Touch Bar, but by a seemingly odd combination of poor engineering and poor quality assurance.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Duh.

Monitor speakers are a type of speaker with a flat frequency response. Nothing to do with display monitors. USB Monitor speakers have a built-in DAC and connect via USB2 (which is more than fast enough) which is handy since the SPDIF/optical output has also disappeared from newer Macs.

I'm sure that there are types of USB devices that I've never heard of, too. Bet most of them have USB-A, though...



Ah, back to USB Alternative Truth mode again. Until computers and peripherals with USB 3.2 (which can double-up USB3.1 lanes) appear, the USB bandwidth of a USB-C port is just the same as the bandwidth of a single USB-A port. If you get a USB-C hub with (say) 3 USB sockets, a SD card and sound then all of those sockets are sharing a single USB 3.1 connection to your Mac. Probably just 5Gbps 3.1g1, at that (its hard to tell without having a particular dock to test).

USB 3.2 has only recently been announced and shouldn't be confused with 10Gbps USB3.1gen2 (which is completely independent of USB-C and can work over USB3 A-connectors) - not that there are that many devices out there that support 3.1gen2, either.

Yes, there is TB3 - same connector, different cables, different peripherals, much better bandwidth. Make that $300 for a dock rather than your $65 USB-C option and, yes, you should get full bandwidth on all the dock's ports.

Yes, USB-C can carry DisplayPort/HDMI - but until USB-C controllers start supporting DP1.4, at 4k@60Hz any USB devices on the same port get throttled to USB 2 speeds. Or, pay the premium for TB3 equipment.

And, yes, there is USB-C charging - except few of the cheaper USB-C hubs deliver enough power for the higher-end MBPs.

...and if Apple had simply upgraded the existing TB2 ports to TB3, we could have had the single-port docking and charging you evidently love and still be able to connect existing stuff directly when we were away from our docking station...
[doublepost=1509920874][/doublepost]

...all of which could have been added to the 2015 design without throwing out the great keyboard and so-called-legacy connectivity. We could also have enjoyed the improved battery life for general use offered by the new CPUs - instead, Apple have made the battery smaller (...and, surprise, that reduces the life as soon as you move beyond general use)

The "Less peripheral bandwidth" claim depends very much on how many of the 2016's TB3 measly 2-4 I/O ports you clog up with low-bandwidth USB devices and chargers - or displays that could have connected via HDMI and been driven directly by the GPU without affecting your general I/O bandwidth.

Just change the two DisplayPort/TB2 connectors to TB3 (nobodies saying that the new MBP shouldn't have had any TB3/USB-C ports) and we'd have been able to connect a charger, a HDMI display, a SD card, a couple of USB-A devices before we'd even began to tap the potential of 40Gbps of TB3... and (get this) we would still have had the option of single-cable docking if we wanted it.

Just a lot of coulda, shoulda, woulda....

It means nothing apple made their design choices for a product with a 5 year shelf life for design and port configuration wise and it was a good one for that reason. Their mac sales are up 11% year on year driven by this product so they haven't got it wrong for the majority of people.

If you don't like it don't buy it. There is plenty of competition and mostly its ok quality. Apple don't make a product just for you, that's life, neither does anyone else, you make your choices based on what's available same as buying anything else.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Nobody is saying that the things you mention don't happen, I am very aware that things can be defective and/or break even when you spend a lot of money on them. But context is important, your claim that Apple laptops are so unreliable that no professional should use them is simply nonsense. I'm surrounded by professionals in a creative agency using them right now! Sure one of them might require repair occasionally, that's life. Guess what our IT guy opposite me is working on fixing right now? A Lenovo PC laptop.

There's a real sense of entitlement these days that things should never malfunction even though they are vastly more complex than a decade ago. If my MBP develops a fault I'll take it in for repair, just as I do when my car breaks down or my bicycle tyre goes flat. We're not in some utopian universe where nothing ever goes wrong.

I think your misunderstanding this

It's not the Apple native USB-C ports that are in question in terms of reliability it's the solutions etc for external connectivity now forced

It's not a question of cheap or good cables and dongles but simply not all are created equal which you may or may not encounter

The more native types of ports the greater the reliability in this transition period IMO

 

[Falhófnir]

Well I happened to be in town today with half an hour spare so went in to have a play with the MacBooks as I have a few times before - today the screen was tipped further forward than it usually is (leant back to facilitate using it while standing) so for the first time I actually adjusted the screen in one of the 2017 models - wow it felt flimsy! The 2015s are absolute tanks by comparison, not sure if it was just a worn display unit but if that’s usual then I’m glad I’ve held off this iteration of MBP, good looks or no

 

[SteveJUAE]

Just a lot of coulda, shoulda, woulda....

It means nothing apple made their design choices for a product with a 5 year shelf life for design and port configuration wise and it was a good one for that reason. Their mac sales are up 11% year on year driven by this product so they haven't got it wrong for the majority of people..

A lot of assumptions at best here

Apple typically use 4 years in some of there assessments for MBP or even if you look at major releases I believe they are 4 years or less

I do not think any of us have any actual numbers on what's driven the 11% increase in Mac's, it may be from the MBP

We have no breakdown on what users do with their Mac's other than only 15% of them use professional software on a regular basis

 

[Melbourne Park]

...

P.S. Apple should at least include the USB-C to lightning cable for free... that would have solved this.

I certainly agree with that ... I opened my 2017 15" MBP's still white box and there was a nice plastic bag which has sticky stuff on its seals so that was cool, a thin piece of paper in between the monitor and the keyboard, a charger ... the computer ... and still some white stickers. I've never used any of those stickers. Heck, you used to get lots of fun stuff. Nothing now. And you actually need a USB-C to USB converter.

But ... they are cheap. Its just sort of insulting.

About battery life - mine feels a heap longer than my 2012 Air, which has a new battery in it. But I haven't tested it. Strange thing is it feels about the same weight as the Air. It is heavier, but it feels light. Its thinner than my wife's 4 month old new model HP Elitebook 13" X360 1030 G2 too. It feels lighter than that notebook too. It cost 50% more than the HP though, but that included double the RAM, double the SSD size, a nicer screen that's lots bigger too, but no touch screen. I log onto my wife's HP with its touch screen - you've got to clean its screen because of that. I suspect touch screens add stress on everything and weight. The HP has lots of ports including a cellular sim, but its annoying that it only has one USB-C port, while the 2017 has four of them, so you can stuff into either side which I like.

I don't see battery either as being an issue for the 2017 MBPs either. They have the same life as a 2015 despite a brighter screen. They weigh 500 grams less. So buy a 300 gram power pack that adds 20 watt hours and costs $150 or less, and you've got an extra 25% of battery life than a 2015, and you're still lighter. The C+ power packs will get better and better value too, and their universal standard means they'll just work. For all sorts of stuff that USBC+ is starting to power. Like my wife's HP notebook. Like my infra-red camera. All things are going to end up with USBC+ ports. That means we safe time, money and cables. Just bring one charger when you travel. Easy. And cheap. I remember people screaming when Apple changed the iPad's port to Lightning, and also the phones. The old port was not rotatable, and it was big. I wish Apple would change the iPhone ports to USBC-+. Be consistent Apple. Go USBC+. Its great.

I've not had issues with the larger touchpad, but surely Apple with be able to isolate the sides? They should for people who find its size gets in the way. If its too big, buy a PC notebook guys - their's are very small. While most work poorly, if you get one that is Wycom tech, they work well on PC notebooks.

As far as the keyboard goes - at least its a serviceable item. Apple may have got it right with the 2017 keyboard, but maybe not. But eventually they'll get it right. And they'll fix the broken keyboards too. So far for me its not an issue, although I've read I should get a keyboard cover. Helps with dirt and moisture spills. But if it touches the screen, it'll be no good. Need to check on that ...

I was worried the keyboard was noisy and the touch was poor. The 2016 I really didn't like. But the 2017 is fine, and its normally quieter than my wife's HP keyboard, which wins awards for its feel and throw. But the Apple one seems just as good, the biggest difference is really that the Apple has bigger keys. Not sure the benefit of bigger keys, because it narrows the gaps between the keys. I imagine that would cause more errors, but so far for me that's not happening, and I type quickly.

The worse thing about the new form factor is getting a case. Its seems a crime to put a case onto such a slim notebook. But I guess I should.

 

[turbineseaplane]

buy a PC notebook guys

Not acceptable as a solution. Mac users want to use macOS so when the hardware Apple releases goes afoul or astray too far it's intensely disheartening as our only options are "deal with it" or completely abandon the platform, which is awful if not impossible for some users.

And no offense to you in my comment so I apologize if it reads that way.

I just wish people would never even suggest "buy a PC notebook". It's a complete non-starter and is not an alternative to Apple hardware as nothing else can run macOS.

Believe me - if I could run natively supported macOS on a ThinkPad (as an example), I absolutely would given the tradeoffs Apple has decided to support in their latest MacBook lines.

On the Mac side, I'm much more tied to the OS than the hardware at this point.