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Hated 2016 Macbook Pro inititally, convince me otherwise
- Thread starter senttoschool
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... for most of last year many people were holding off buying new Macs: the "Buyers Guide" section of the site was a wall of red "Don't Buy - updates expected soon" messages and the forums were full of threads complaining that the rMBP hadn't been significantly updated for 3 years. Now, we've had two rounds of updates to the MBP, a minor but welcome update for the Air and new iMacs. If Mac sales this year hadn't gone up then Tim would probably already have his pink slip.
The people who have bought Macs in the last 12 months are not the "majority of people", or even the "majority of Mac users". We'll know what they think in 2-3 years time when the majority of 2014-2015 Mac users will be looking for replacements.
I didn't. I dumped the idea of a "desktop replacement" laptop that could commute from home to work, and got a 2017 iMac - with TB3/USB-C and USB-A and ethernet and SD card ports - the best of both worlds. For the moment, my old MBP will do for work.
OP: just toss out all the noises, the debate will get nowhere.
Just by reading the first line of your use case I can tell you already have the best Macs you can get - both the 2015 MBP and the MBA are the last Macs with reliable keyboards, which is the absolute number one priority for a coder.
Just by reading the first line of your use case I can tell you already have the best Macs you can get - both the 2015 MBP and the MBA are the last Macs with reliable keyboards, which is the absolute number one priority for a coder.
Firstly there is nothing that you can do on a mac that you can’t do on windows swapping os is not the issue it used to be, admittedly I generally dislike windows and the software but it will do everything exactly the same as a mac.
Secondly there are quite a few notebooks that will run Mac OS perfectly well as they have the same chipsets as Mac notebooks.
https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/mac-software/how-to-install-macos-on-pc-3632329/
I understand preferring Mac software, I certainly do, however Apple still don’t make computers just for you.
They make what they consider to be the best compromises in a portable machine (and I have yet to disagree with them) all portables make compromises, Apple prioritise decent battery life and portability over out and out performance that’s their thing, they always have and always will, they also prioritise the smallest port selection and the fastest I/O. usb c / TB3 is perfect for this and for getting a thinner lighter more portable machine.
However nothing has changed with the latest machines, go back two years and the port selection is only 2 usb 3 and 2 thunderbolt everyone moaned about thunderbolt when Apple went with that 6 years ago. Also everyone moaned about the loss of Ethernet when the thinner retina machines got rid of it, and wanted more USB ports not thunderbolt (until apples foresight meant they could drive 4K monitors when other portables had no chance.) not to mention the mediocre graphics that have always been in MacBook pros.
In short they make portable computers that will appeal to the largest number of customers, if that’s not you then tough luck.
It's a valid point, but where do you draw the line? VGA output on new Macs? How about SCSI and Parallel? The implication that dongles are some new annoyance is simply not true, Apple started using Mini DisplayPort back in 2008 when most monitors were still VGA. Dongles have been part of my workflow as a Mac user for a decade. Some (most?) of us would rather use a dongle occasionally than have a laptop that is permanently 1/2 an inch thicker.
I do not disagree
. There has always been adapters or extenders etc however with this transition period and more options, higher I/O and TB3 piggy backed on to USB-C standard, before we even get to reliability and compatibility of dongles there is a mine field of specs and options waiting to trip up the average userCable spec's in there own right is bad enough with no one fit all solutions even Apple cable in the box only gives a USB 2.0 I/O cable but USB-C charging capacity and so on ..........
Most dongles are likely to gimp your I/O down, where direct connection may not, especially on rMB and for the less well informed or poorly advised the selection is bewildering. Just opting for just TB3 supported multi dongles it's not a given that you will always get what you expected I/O's etc
Add the fact that many users already had solutions to attach their chosen peripherals adding USB-C to the mix more often than not either involves more expense a different array of connectors and possibly unexpected results without a large amount of research and above average IT knowledge
Given that the MBP has such a small Pro user base and an even smaller subset of this that's ever likely to use 4x4k the biggest user group of average users would of been better served with a mix of ports both new and old during this transition period than having a thinner laptop by a few mm's with a smaller battery etc and 4 over spec'd ports that they will never use in anger
Sure a time will come when USB-C will be dominant and I look forward to it, but we are not there yet despite Apple influence (which is inconsistent across devices) that is minor outside the few 1st world countries compared to the greater populations that are still strong users of USB-A/CD/DVD etc
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there is a LOT of people that are forced to use mac's because of work, and a lot more that are deeply invested in their "everything just works on a mac" promise, maybe with an implicit dream about apple taking care that the stuff they need to do will be easy and pleasant to do on a mac.
Personally i'm forced to pick a macbook pro model for work for next monday and i'm in 7 minds about it, i can not imagine walking in to meeting with my boss with plans to tell him that i want him to pay real money for a high spec 2 years old macbook pro model (roughly same cost as a new one here), and at the same time i dread walking out from the meeting knowing that i'm going to have to work for the next 2 years on a 2017 "pro" TB model.
I dread it for many reasons good and bad alike, but for the topic of ports it is laughable to imply that USB-C devices are more reliable or faster than designated ports, and that USB-C hubs are reliable at all.
Not every USB-C cable, port, device, and power supply will be compatible, instead of having incompatible ports the incompatibility is simply hidden in incompatible protocols. For an USB-C HDMI adapter It could implement HDMI over USB 3.0, it could use native HDMI, HDMI “multiplexed” with Thunderbolt Alternate Mode, or maybe HDMI over Thunderbolt, there are good reasons that so many different dongles are not working in applications they were seemingly designed for, and it's not JUST because of bad design.
same goes for any connection. If you need a connection for some purpose, then check the technology and buyer's views. Just as you would a hard drive external before - find out. Its easy to do. And with a C+, there's more choice and lots of low cost that work well. With Thunderbolt, its always going to cost a packet. But C+ is cheap.
it's absolutely not at all trivial to do, and no it's not the same with any connection. The reason why designated ports are made in different shapes is to help you figure out what works.
in the example you just quoted the options for what protocol is actually used would be cut in half or more if the connection were made with designated ports, just try making a list like mine for the connections in a USB-C hub
So you would like to think but sorry it's just not true I only buy OEM dongles and there are even varying results even with Apple or Samsung dongles.
I'm even tempted to buy the nice Dell one to have triple options as 1 of the 3 should work in certain scenarios. Often the single port Apple dongle is the only solution which means you cannot simultaneously charge on say a rMB.
You may have a better work around on your new MBP with more ports or you may be lucky and not encounter these anomalies.
Due to the extra functionality of USB-C + TB3 it seems that OEM's have greater flexibility which can lead to some compatibility issues plus throw in the mix of legacy support and numerous other peripherals you can attach.
It's not surprising USB-C has added more confusion for most with no single cable, dongle and power options available, with many suppliers of varying quality and compatibility
For users like my wife she just wants a "thingy" that she plugs in to connect her other "thingy" and not read and research 100's of reviews to check
. With USB-A she was almost self reliant as she just found a black or white cable with the right ends in the kitchen draw.
I don't understand lumping USB-C with compatibility issues, maybe I'm missing something? Someone mentioned for instance about speed, if the USB-C cable is implementing USB2 speeds and not USB3, it creates a nightmare for the consumer to guess which is being used. But isn't this the same as USB-A devices all using the same connection? Same with HDMI, it could implement over various standards, exactly the same way you can buy a HDMI2.0 or a HDMI 1.2 or whatever, it's exactly the same scenario whether the cable has a USB end or a HDMI end on it. The focus should be on the actual connector and not the cable type, as that's a given with anything. The fact that your computer can have a HDMI or a DP, or a Data port or whatever is what makes USB-C attractive. You can't use a HDMI to transfer data so it's effectively a redundant port the majority of the time, and it wasn't common 5 years ago just as it likely won't be common 5 years from now.
USB-C is just a literal evolution of USB and I really don't understand the majority of complaints beyond just complaining. Universal Serial Bus connections were designed and implemented to be one thing, universal. As technology evolved, so did the things you could plug into a computer. No one thought you'd be plugging in flat screen TVs in 1997 and so the cable was never designed for it, USB-A had lumbered along several generations trying to adapt before we reached USB-C. USB-C has a smaller footprint and so is suitable for a wider number of devices, negating the need for multiple USB-A versions (B, Micro-B, SS, etc), it's also reversible meaning easier to use, and it supports a much wider set of protocols. In effect it is the ultimate Universal connector.
The idea that Apple have implemented TB3 into the cable is nothing spectacular or confusing for consumers. TB was Intels idea for a high speed interface to replace the likes of FireWire. Again as technology moves forward, combining the connection between these leads to the best possible situation where you can have high speed data transfer as well as a universal connection all in one port.
Maybe it was too soon to go all USB-C, but people seem to forget that the MBP is a laptop, not a desktop computer. It's primary design is to allow for portability. A lot of people use this as a desktop, and chain it up to many devices on a desk 90% of the time, which is fine, but with a desktop this is to be expected, with a laptop it wants to be used pretty much without anything attached permanently. Which again is where USB-C is great, as it allows for multiple connections through a single cable. So instead of plugging in your HDD, your Mouse, your Monitor, Keyboard, everything into its own unique little port, you can use a single cable to connect to a dock with all these items pre-connected. This makes it far easier to use the computer as a portable device and not a spiderweb of connections you need to sort out each and every time you move the thing.
So love it or hate it or whatever, but USB is a natural technology that makes perfect sense in a mobile computer. If you don't use a laptop the way they are designed then you need to understand that, and know it's not where the form factor evolved from or is going towards. We're already seeing a majority of new devices supporting USB-C which is great, so instead of needing that draw full of various cables, you will just use one single USB-C to USB-C cable for everything. In the interim you will have to replace those cables for USB-C variants, or simple buy new products which use USB-C, or just use a simple cheap dock as a stopgap. None of which is particularly difficult or stops you using the computer in any meaningful way.
USB-C is just a literal evolution of USB and I really don't understand the majority of complaints beyond just complaining. Universal Serial Bus connections were designed and implemented to be one thing, universal. As technology evolved, so did the things you could plug into a computer. No one thought you'd be plugging in flat screen TVs in 1997 and so the cable was never designed for it, USB-A had lumbered along several generations trying to adapt before we reached USB-C. USB-C has a smaller footprint and so is suitable for a wider number of devices, negating the need for multiple USB-A versions (B, Micro-B, SS, etc), it's also reversible meaning easier to use, and it supports a much wider set of protocols. In effect it is the ultimate Universal connector.
The idea that Apple have implemented TB3 into the cable is nothing spectacular or confusing for consumers. TB was Intels idea for a high speed interface to replace the likes of FireWire. Again as technology moves forward, combining the connection between these leads to the best possible situation where you can have high speed data transfer as well as a universal connection all in one port.
Maybe it was too soon to go all USB-C, but people seem to forget that the MBP is a laptop, not a desktop computer. It's primary design is to allow for portability. A lot of people use this as a desktop, and chain it up to many devices on a desk 90% of the time, which is fine, but with a desktop this is to be expected, with a laptop it wants to be used pretty much without anything attached permanently. Which again is where USB-C is great, as it allows for multiple connections through a single cable. So instead of plugging in your HDD, your Mouse, your Monitor, Keyboard, everything into its own unique little port, you can use a single cable to connect to a dock with all these items pre-connected. This makes it far easier to use the computer as a portable device and not a spiderweb of connections you need to sort out each and every time you move the thing.
So love it or hate it or whatever, but USB is a natural technology that makes perfect sense in a mobile computer. If you don't use a laptop the way they are designed then you need to understand that, and know it's not where the form factor evolved from or is going towards. We're already seeing a majority of new devices supporting USB-C which is great, so instead of needing that draw full of various cables, you will just use one single USB-C to USB-C cable for everything. In the interim you will have to replace those cables for USB-C variants, or simple buy new products which use USB-C, or just use a simple cheap dock as a stopgap. None of which is particularly difficult or stops you using the computer in any meaningful way.
The 90s just called
you seem to be completely missing the point of TB3, it's a single port that supports I/O, video, power, network etc. You don't NEED a specific port for each peripheral any more, me and many other people's single cable setup proves that.A single cable solution does not prove against what he said. The effort or luck or expense involved in having a perfectly working, TB3/USB-C exclusive setup is not economically sound as of now. His point is that there is sea of confusion in the USB-C I/O chain, despite sharing the same shape.The 90s just called
Not economically sound? Here's my exact outlay to achieve a stable, full speed single cable setup:
Dodocool USB-C hub: £32.99
Cable Creation 1m USB-C extension cable: £11
I re-used my existing HDMI cable, Apple USB-C power cable, and 2 x USB 3.0 A cables (to connect my two hard drives.)
No luck involved, I researched the products before buying any of them. Something people on here didn't even seem to do before dropping $2k on a laptop.
Dodocool USB-C hub: £32.99
Cable Creation 1m USB-C extension cable: £11
I re-used my existing HDMI cable, Apple USB-C power cable, and 2 x USB 3.0 A cables (to connect my two hard drives.)
No luck involved, I researched the products before buying any of them. Something people on here didn't even seem to do before dropping $2k on a laptop.
You missed my point, economy isn't just the cash you spent. Effort / luck / expense are 3 combined fronts which total into the equation of the solution being economical or not. The fact that you spent more time than you could have in researching the right cables and hubs, can be detrimental in some other person case.
I am not saying the new approach has no merits, obviously use case like yours managed to find it comfortable. The debate always falls back to this: if a machine has TB3 *on top of* retaining some "legacy" ports then we may get the best of both worlds, for a higher number of use cases.
Sure I see what you mean, but for me spending an hour reading reviews to buy the right single cable setup was more efficient than having to plug in four or five cables every day for the next three years.
I’ve been having this argument for a year, these people are far to emotionally invested in their own reasoning to ever admit they are wrong. I give a few well reasoned comments in each thread to counter their evangelical nonsense and then leave it there.
Not worth talkng to them beyond providing balance for the casual reader.
The problem is not so much USB-C in and of itself as it is the dongles, hubs and thunderbolt and bi-directional power.
USB-C in and of itself is a good idea, and i think you are right it is a natural evolution of the USB standard. The problem is when you plug in a dongle that dongle has to negotiate who delivers power, how much voltage, what protocol for data transfer and it has to negotiate that with the host device. But that doesn't always have to be your macbook it can be your tv acting as a hub, or your USB-C macbook hub and then they both have to negotiate with eachother and the actual macbook, and in many cases with other devices in the same hub, to predict the result is so far beyond trivial that most people are going to plug things in like monkeys until something works or lets out the smoke whatever comes first.
All this is probably fine if you plug in the same things at your office or home, but if you actually use your mobile personal computer outside of it's safe environment to connect to a lot of things because you need to get things done it's not a happy prospect.
It's fun watching other people losing the cool over it tho, in a sad kinda way.
TLDR: USB-C is not utopia, and barely ready for prime time, adding thunderbolt to that same connector only made it worse.
stories like this: https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/4/10916264/usb-c-russian-roulette-power-cords
are not not only about a bad manufacturer, but also about a standard that is inherently errorprone. No other type of connection has as much capability to fry your or other people's gear, and as much responsibility for connection safety outsourced to tiny circuits in a cable connector. And the mbp has 4 of those and nothing else.
That's why I spent £11 on a branded extension cable with great reviews from Amazon rather than a £2 cable from eBay. You can't really say quality and reliability is an issue specific to USB-C, it goes for any cable including USB-A.
I never said that only usb-c cables have problems, i said that usb-c cables have far more problems chiefly because of the USB-C specification, and when something goes wrong they have a far far higher likelihood of actually frying your gear.
I think that's lauding an entire group into a single category due to a single fault. The truth is there's counterfeit cables, cheap, fake etc. that can cause issues, as with anything. It's up to the consumers to have some merit of common sense (If it's half the price of the original, why?) and the retailers to banish fakes and dangerous cables from their marketplaces. I believe Apple and Google engineer their devices to protect against certain situations like this, and the link you provided notes it was an issue with using a Google device charging via a USB-A port "I used a cheap cable I found on Amazon to charge my Nexus 6P and it drew too much power from my MacBook Air’s USB ports". In reality the cables should not cause any issue but again this will always be the case, you can buy fake power adapters and dangerous cables for anything. If one is genuinely concerned about this particular issue, you can buy cheap products to give yourself that extra piece of mind. https://9to5mac.com/2017/01/27/satechi-usb-c-power-meter-macbook/
Basically, solutions exist.
Just not true, if your gear needs a specific power draw because its so old or badly made that it can't control its own power draw, like all apple products do, then cables have nothing to do with it.
Why assume it's a power draw issue? With a cheap or not made to spec, it could be any number of things, with poor construction leading to a short being the first that comes to mind.
Well because I read the linked article that started the discussion and it said it was a power draw issue, although apparently that is down to the cable not the phone that drew as much power as it could, seems like poor phone design not a crappy cable to me.
no the truth is that USB-C devices are very error prone because of USB Type-C Specification 1.0, and that the specification is unlikely to get much better any time soon.
Even reputable companies have problems: https://www.apple.com/support/usbc-chargecable/
not because the idea of USB-C is horible, but going all in on a 1.0 implementation that can fry your stuff is not a great prospect for people that actually need to get stuff done on a daily basis.
another field test here: http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/30/2016-macbook-pro-usb-cthunderbolt-survival-guide/