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HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray Battle Over? Warner Switches to Blu-Ray

Yeah PS3 has fantastic build quality. Its quieter than the Wii and the way it handles the UI is amazingly well done. Reliable as a rock. You just dont hear about people having technical issues on the PS3.

The online on PS3 weas put it this way: No lag over christmas and its free. Sure they need to sort out in game messaging and crosss game invites but the service has been reliable i dont think they even do maintanence.

I think it's possible the format war could be over by the time we're welcoming in 2009.
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Well Paramount are only HDDVD temporarily and even then their agreement is weird since they still release some Blu ray in some countries...

CES is a good time to see what new Blu Ray players and updates are coming. Will be interesting to see what gets updated in the PS3. Panasonic and Samsung should be interesting as they keep implying they wanted to do more affordable players.
 
bigwig said:
A spare drive is a far, far better backup and storage solution than Blu-Ray.
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I backup anything non-media related (applications, etc.) on DVD.

And I disagree. I don't think I've ever had an optical disc fail. I've had several hard drives fail.

I keep my main media collection on HD, but only because it outstripped the meager 9 gb capacity of DVD-R DL a long time ago. It would take 100 DVDs to back it up. If I could do that on 18 Blu-Rays, well it's still not enough but it's less ridiculous.

So now I have two terabyte external drives, one a working copy and one the master, and I have a 1tb jbod disk at work that's my offsite backup. Going this way means a lot of frequent backing up and a lot of hard disks. If I could back it up on a small number of disks I would be very happy.
 
Schmoe0013 said:
HD DVD with 15 gigs, can have roughly 6-8 hours of video. This is plenty for any movie out there, i have yet to watch a film that is 6 hours long.
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I can think of a few that stretch the duration envelope. 2001 is quite long (and has an intermission at half point), the exteneded Lord of the Rings movies are quite long, and some of the classics like Lawrence of Arabia, Ten Commandments, et al are quite long.

The best excuse I can think of is that Francis Ford Coppola once did a special release on Laserdisc of the Godfather Trilogy mashed together into one big film shown entirely in chronological order. I have never seen it but I heard it was released that way on Laserdisc and occasionally shown on TV. That has got to be 7-8 hours right there.
 
Martin C said:
It's 480 Microsoft Points for an HD movie. That converts to about $6 USD. Not exactly a great deal but the HD quality is amazing especially since it was streaming over my wireless network and I could start playing the movie while it was downloading.
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Blockbuster and Netflix both offer both formats in their by-mail rentals. I signed up with Blockbuster, unlimited discs one at a time for $9.99 (I think it's since gone up to $11.99). I average one movie a week (I watch movies on Friday nights) so it works out quite well, an HD movie rental for $3.
 
2ms said:
I don't get why people here are such Sony fans. As far as I can tell Blu-Ray is just an unnecessary format cooked up and then shoved down the consumers thoats with the PS3 in order to be able to make the next generation of media disc completely proprietary. This is always bad for the consumer. And in this case, BDs and BD players already cost susbtantially more than HD-DVD discs even during the fierce battle. HD-DVDs can be manufacturered with largely the same equipment and processes as DVDs and the storage layer is at a safe depth rather than being insanely close to the outside surface and commensurately scratch vulnerable.

Once the war is over there will be little incentive for Sony to continue to reduce prices as much as it can. Rather, it will be in their interest to keep them as high as possible. And for what? A couple hundred MBs or whatever when the same movies could fit just as well on HD-DVD which is cheaper to manufacturer and more durable? Apple wanted to get out of the Bluray commitment once they realized PS3 was not a homerun and that, thus, the industry would have no choice but to go with the Sony format. Now I suppose they'll switch back to Bluray, but I really see much to be happy about here.

Do you guys get that HD-DVDs hold HD movies just as well as BD while being much cheaper and more durable? And this is before the many many layer versions of these discs. Who cares about storage beyond that when 500GB hard drives that are about 1000x as fast as any optical drive cost $100?
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There's so much misinformation in this post I'd laugh if it wasn't for the huge amounts of FUD.

Seems people think the Toshiba owned (and Microsoft encouraged), developed and run HD-DVD is less proprietary than the Blu-Ray Disc Association's system. Even at conception the BDDA had 9 members, it wasn't just Sony. That means that there will always be more competition in the marketplace with the players than with HD-DVD, especially when the format takes off and starts being a decent percentage of the normal DVD market size.

Blu-Ray has a hard protective surface that's extremely scratch resistant. This more than makes up for having a thinner plastic coating.

The cost of manufacturing the discs is a moot point for consumers if they're the same price at retail. Sadly this seems to be the case - sadly because they're both horribly marked up over standard DVDs.

Other costs aren't an issue in time. DVD players cost a lot in the first couple of years of release as well. The cost difference of production will drop to zero surprisingly rapidly.

So I see HD-DVDs as being no better an option than Blu-Ray. They hold less, they have lower bitrates for the HD media (you can argue how much that matters in reality elsewhere) and it's rather heavily supported by Microsoft which is a worry.

Let me know when you buy a movie on 500GB hard drives eh? $100 a shot, fun.
 
iBallz said:
Today I was told using the PS3 for watching movies on it will wear it out soon.:confused:
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Well, the part that holds the laser might be made of an alloy and the guide rails inside the Blu-ray mechanism might be metal or steel. But the part that travels back and fourth is made of harden nylon, covered with a special silicon based lube. Over time and extensive uses, it'll wear out.. and a replacement is required. Same thing used to happen with the old PS1 and PS2. But don't worry.. you can buy replacement parts, though NOT cheap!:D
 
Hattig said:
Well Blu-Ray is not just better in terms of storage. It has a higher maximum possible bitrate of media (video + audio streams, etc), which means that a Blu-Ray only company can encode the film in better quality (usually they'll encode once so if they're both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD they'll encode for the lesser quality format).

Data transfer rate (data)
BD-ROM: 36.0Mbps
HD-DVD: 36.55Mbps

Data transfer rate (video/audio)
Blu-Ray: 54.0Mbps
HD-DVD: 36.55Mbps

Video resolution (max) , Video bit rate (max)
Blu-Ray: 1920×1080 (1080p) 40.0Mbps
HD-DVD: 1920×1080 (1080p) 28.0Mbps

And as for the cost of making the discs, that will not be an issue in a year or two, and I'd rather not compromise on quality now for a few cents. Especially when they'll be sold at such extortionate prices anyway.
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It's not an issue of quality. Even though Blu-Ray has a higher video video transfer/bit rate, you can't tell the difference! You're still paying for something that's not needed! And when Blu-Ray goes down in costs, HD-DVD will still be cheaper.
 
UltraNEO* said:
Well, the part that holds the laser might be made of an alloy and the guide rails inside the Blu-ray mechanism might be metal or steel. But the part that travels back and fourth is made of harden nylon, covered with a special silicon based lube. Over time and extensive uses, it'll wear out.. and a replacement is required. Same thing used to happen with the old PS1 and PS2. But don't worry.. you can buy replacement parts, though NOT cheap!:D
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That will come from playing...um...video games too. It's not going to wear out any time soon. Give it three years, we'll have PS4s then anyway. :)
 
aristotle said:
Dude, people on the net have done tests with steel wool on the Blu-ray coating and the discs played fine. HD DVD does "not" have the coating and is just as vulnerable as DVD to scratches while every blu-ray disc has the coating. Are we on the same page now?
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Dude, apparently not as I have had several Blus from Netflix that were unplayable due to scratches.
 
iEdd said:
As it has been said in this thread, region coding is at the discretion of the movie company. If HD-DVD won, there would be region coding by some developers. I think the difference here is that Blu-Ray has made a standard for region coding, meaning that developers can only discriminate titles into three regions.
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in the current hd-dvd spec, there is no provision for region coding. the spec would have to change to accommodate it.

iEdd said:
Likewise with DRM, sadly it will happen and continue to punish only those who legally purchase things no matter which format 'wins'.
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well, obviously. :D
 
mcarnes said:
The only way they would make double the money is if consumers bought one HD-DVD version and one blu-ray version. Who the hell would do that?
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If there are, let's say hypothetically, 1,000,000 HD dvd players and 1,000,000 Blu-Ray players,
then the studio who releases on both formats will have a potential for doubling their money by fulfilling the demands of both hardware owners.
Don't understand your math.
 
fdxd said:
Yeah PS3 has fantastic build quality. Its quieter than the Wii and the way it handles the UI is amazingly well done. Reliable as a rock. You just dont hear about people having technical issues on the PS3.

The online on PS3 weas put it this way: No lag over christmas and its free. Sure they need to sort out in game messaging and crosss game invites but the service has been reliable i dont think they even do maintanence.

CES is a good time to see what new Blu Ray players and updates are coming. Will be interesting to see what gets updated in the PS3. Panasonic and Samsung should be interesting as they keep implying they wanted to do more affordable players.
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Just to underline your post, I went to Amazon in Germany. The PS3 still is thecheapest Blu-Ray player available here. Well, I just hope that the players will significantly drop in price. Paying around 500€ for the player and around 25€ for the media is a joke.

Anyone remember the CD introduction. Like when the record companies told you, that the price point was higher due to manufacturing cost. That once, CD has a sustainable marketshare, prices on CDs will drop significantly. Guess what: CDs are still more expensive, than Vinyl used to be!

And I'm so damn sure, same applies to the High Def DVD successor, whatever format it will be. All for just milking the customers. Oh, and btw, the price of a Blu-Ray disk exactly matches the price of a night at the cinmea for two including Nachos and Coke, atmosphere and a REAL EXPERIENCE! (e.g. I still can't stand Lord of the Rings on a TV)
 
sfhc21 said:
It's not an issue of quality. Even though Blu-Ray has a higher video video transfer/bit rate, you can't tell the difference! You're still paying for something that's not needed! And when Blu-Ray goes down in costs, HD-DVD will still be cheaper.
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Dunno, looks like Blu-Ray will have the benefit of more massive production than HD-DVD on its side.

You can't tell the difference at the moment because the films that are made for both products, use the same encoding parameters, i.e., for the lesser format. Of course as I said in another post, the quality issue could be meaningless between 28mbps and 40mbps for video. However the ability to have more audio options in the spare bandwidth than HD-DVD will come in useful in the future.

I think that Blu-Ray has some breathing room for the future than HD-DVD doesn't, and now that the issue of the format that will win is looking more resolved I think we will start to see more discs use that room. Especially now that Blu-Ray is reaching a more final specification (the one thing HD-DVD had in its favour was being earlier with the specification, I think that it pushed the BDDA into releasing earlier than they actually wanted).
 
Huh?

sfhc21 said:
It's not an issue of quality. Even though Blu-Ray has a higher video video transfer/bit rate, you can't tell the difference!
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Maybe YOU can't tell the difference but there are some serious home-theater fanatics that have $100,000 Barco HD projectors, Class "A" amplifiers attached to Martin Logan electrostatic speakers, etc., who can.

These same people would pay big money to get a copy of the movie in MJPEG format like digital movie theaters project with. Cost isn't a factor -- quality is. When BluRay movies have a bitrate that's nearly 1.5 times higher than HD-DVD, guess which one the fanatics are going to buy?
 
megfilmworks said:
If there are, let's say hypothetically, 1,000,000 HD dvd players and 1,000,000 Blu-Ray players,
then the studio who releases on both formats will have a potential for doubling their money by fulfilling the demands of both hardware owners.
Don't understand your math.
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That's probably correct for the standalones (including the XBox360 HD-DVD drive), but don't forget the 7 million or so PS3s out there as well. If 1 in 7 owners also uses it for Blu-Ray movies it would explain the sales ratio of Blu-Ray movies to HD-DVD movies.

It is a shame that hybrid players are held back by squabbling and high-costs. I would have hoped that premium content would have been released on Blu-Ray, and cheaper content, older movies, etc, would have been on HD-DVD and cheaper to buy - literally the price of current DVDs (as that's what they cost to make apparently). HD-DVD's high retail media prices have really not helped the format.
 
megfilmworks said:
If there are, let's say hypothetically, 1,000,000 HD dvd players and 1,000,000 Blu-Ray players,
then the studio who releases on both formats will have a potential for doubling their money by fulfilling the demands of both hardware owners.
Don't understand your math.
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But with a single format, then you just have the hypothetical 2M players all of one type. The studios still have the same potential for sales, but at somewhat lower costs because they aren't supporting two distinct formats. I don't see a doubling either.
 
2ms said:
As far as I can tell Blu-Ray is just an unnecessary format cooked up and then shoved down the consumers thoats with the PS3 in order to be able to make the next generation of media disc completely proprietary. This is always bad for the consumer.
Click to expand...

The same could be said about DVD during it's launch and I think the consumer has shown they feel okay with it.


Once the war is over there will be little incentive for Sony to continue to reduce prices as much as it can. Rather, it will be in their interest to keep them as high as possible.
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To do so would ensure that either Sony would never recover their investment or it would take so long to do so that the money would have been better not being spent in the first place.

Once Blu-Ray becomes the sole general-consumer HD optical format, the economies of scale will eventually drive down the price and drive up adoption. The same thing happened with DVD - the initial units were extremely expensive, but as more people bought them the prices went down.
 
ocifersven said:
I think the sensible thing for any hardware manufacturer to do from here on out is to make a decent hybrid player that will continue to support HD-DVD's, even if that format dies.
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The problem is, how many companies will continue to support HD-DVD if content is no longer actively produced in that format (should the other studios eventually support Blu-Ray)? Pioneer offered combination LD+DVD players for a few years in the US, and then a few more in Japan, but now I believe no consumer LD players are manufactured. When my decade-old CLD-704 finally dies, my remaining LDs go into the landfill.


So how much does anyone think Warner Bros was paid to give up HD-DVD?
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$150 million was enough to get Paramount and co. to go to HD-DVD, so I expect that was the starting price.
 
CWallace said:
$150 million was enough to get Paramount and co. to go to HD-DVD, so I expect that was the starting price.
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Might be, but Warner is flatly denying that there was any money involved.

Warner Home Entertainment President Kevin Tsujihara says the studio took no pay-offs to exclusively back Blu-ray. "The packaged media business is a $42 billion dollar business worldwide at the retail level, and we [Warner] have the largest market share of anybody," said Tsujihara. "From our perspective, the most important piece of this whole puzzle is, "How do we get growth back into this category?" That far outweighed anything else."

This [decision] was one hundred percent around what makes the most sense for the consumer, the retailer and the industry. This was not a bidding war. This was all about what was best, strategically, for us."
 
CWallace said:
uote:
So how much does anyone think Warner Bros was paid to give up HD-DVD?



$150 million was enough to get Paramount and co. to go to HD-DVD, so I expect that was the starting price.
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The story going around is that the BRA gave WB about 500 million in "insentives" to come over exclusively:


http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/04/warner-swayed-by-500-million-from-the-bda

I was all ready to jump into HD this very weekend and buy a player because I could get a player for less the 200.00 with 10 free HD dvds. It's a deal that acknowledges people have collections already and will need up date it.

The issue with Blu-Ray is that there are NO deals at all to be had for the players let alone a player with disks deal. That pushes my buying decision back months and months till the prices drop and the deals begin.

Some people think Sony is sitting back and keeping the prices high just to make the bucks up front.

We'll see what Steve has to say at MacWorld I guess. Anyone think a new AppleTV with a blu-ray players?
 
K.B. said:
The story going around is that the BRA gave WB about 500 million in "insentives" to come over exclusively:


http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/04/warner-swayed-by-500-million-from-the-bda

I was all ready to jump into HD this very weekend and buy a player because I could get a player for less the 200.00 with 10 free HD dvds. It's a deal that acknowledges people have collections already and will need up date it.

The issue with Blu-Ray is that there are NO deals at all to be had for the players let alone a player with disks deal. That pushes my buying decision back months and months till the prices drop and the deals begin.

Some people think Sony is sitting back and keeping the prices high just to make the bucks up front.

We'll see what Steve has to say at MacWorld I guess. Anyone think a new AppleTV with a blu-ray players?
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Deals come and go. I've seen a 10 free DVDs bluray deal before. It'll be back.
 
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