Heart rate updates after 1.01

[Bob190]

sleep tracking monitors don't usually track heart rate, least not every minute or every 10 minutes. It's not really relevant to sleep cycle monitoring, body movement - or lack of movement is the primary tracking vector.

Sorry, but that's just not true. The Basis Peak for instance tracks heart rate continuously and uses that plus the accelerometer, a perspiration sensor and a skin temp sensor to very accurately determine sleep stage.

http://www.mybasis.com/wp-content/u...-of-Basis-Science-Advanced-Sleep-Analysis.pdf

I had a Basis Peak and can attest that it is a very accurate sleep tracking device. Should have kept it, and skipped the AW.

Only the most basic trackers use movement only, like iPhone apps.

At a minimum the AW should use the accelerometer and HR sensor for sleep tracking.

 

[sailermon]

I just read the Apple Website update on the HR monitor and, frankly, I don't have a problem with it. Let's think about how this works, instead of just assuming these changes are bad.

1. Automatic HR every 10 minutes while at rest - nice feature to see if you have accelerated HR for some reason.

2. Manual HR contiguously read from glances anytime you want to check it - Excellent feature that is extremely easy to use and user specified. This could be used after exercise to check recovery or any time you are active without using the workout App, just by a simple glance at your wrist.

3. Continuous 5-sec HR readings during workout using the App. - If you are going for a walk or any other exercise you want to track and record you can use this App to do it. For instance, if you were going to mow the lawn, and wanted to track it, set the Workout App to Outdoor Walk. This is the time that HR is contiguously monitored and is useful in determining your workout intensity and calories burned.

Your activity during the day is still tracked by steps, etc., in the Activity App, even though you don't set the Workout App or have 10-min HR. And think about it, how useful is 10-min HR during activity anyway? Let's give Apple some credit for determining that it just isn't that useful. They have experts working on this stuff and know a lot more about when and how HR should be monitored and how useful it is than we do. They have given the us the flexibility to check HR anytime and record HR during exercise in a very easy and convenient way.

If you disagree with my opinion, post some sound reasons why the updated HR monitor isn't correct or useful when you ware the watch correctly... thigh on your wrist, just below the wrist bone.

 

[stoomc]

I just read the Apple Website update on the HR monitor and, frankly, I don't have a problem with it. Let's think about how this works, instead of just assuming these changes are bad.

1. Automatic HR every 10 minutes while at rest - nice feature to see if you have accelerated HR for some reason.

2. Manual HR contiguously read from glances anytime you want to check it - Excellent feature that is extremely easy to use and user specified. This could be used after exercise to check recovery or any time you are active without using the workout App, just by a simple glance at your wrist.

3. Continuous 5-sec HR readings during workout using the App. - If you are going for a walk or any other exercise you want to track and record you can use this App to do it. For instance, if you were going to mow the lawn, and wanted to track it, set the Workout App to Outdoor Walk. This is the time that HR is contiguously monitored and is useful in determining your workout intensity and calories burned.

Your activity during the day is still tracked by steps, etc., in the Activity App, even though you don't set the Workout App or have 10-min HR. And think about it, how useful is 10-min HR during activity anyway? Let's give Apple some credit for determining that it just isn't that useful. They have experts working on this stuff and know a lot more about when and how HR should be monitored and how useful it is than we do. They have given the us the flexibility to check HR anytime and record HR during exercise in a very easy and convenient way.

If you disagree with my opinion, post some sound reasons why the updated HR monitor isn't correct or useful when you ware the watch correctly... thigh on your wrist, just below the wrist bone.

Right enough, for the guys that want to see how they are recovering after exercise, the can check it in realtime via the glance.

 

[Bob190]

Your activity during the day is still tracked by steps, etc., in the Activity App, even though you don't set the Workout App or have 10-min HR. And think about it, how useful is 10-min HR during activity anyway? Let's give Apple some credit for determining that it just isn't that useful. They have experts working on this stuff and know a lot more about when and how HR should be monitored and how useful it is than we do. They have given the us the flexibility to check HR anytime and record HR during exercise in a very easy and convenient way.

Think about what you are saying here. For instance, if I go on a hike in mountainous terrain and take 5,000 steps vs. taking 5,000 gingerly steps on a level track the AW will now assign the same number of calories burned without using the passive HR measurements. If that hike/walk took an hour, six readings would have shown an elevated HR or not and calculated accurate calories burned. I wouldn't consider either activity a workout, thus wouldn't use the workout mode.

Using just steps to gauge activity is what basic activity trackers do .. Not a device that costs $500. Plus if it is so unnecessary to gauge activity using a HR monitor why do industry leaders like Fitbit and Basis do it that way .. I am sure they have plenty of experts seeing how activity tracking is their main business. Stop making excuses for Apple who should know better.

 

[daijholt]

I just read the Apple Website update on the HR monitor and, frankly, I don't have a problem with it. Let's think about how this works, instead of just assuming these changes are bad.

1. Automatic HR every 10 minutes while at rest - nice feature to see if you have accelerated HR for some reason.

2. Manual HR contiguously read from glances anytime you want to check it - Excellent feature that is extremely easy to use and user specified. This could be used after exercise to check recovery or any time you are active without using the workout App, just by a simple glance at your wrist.

3. Continuous 5-sec HR readings during workout using the App. - If you are going for a walk or any other exercise you want to track and record you can use this App to do it. For instance, if you were going to mow the lawn, and wanted to track it, set the Workout App to Outdoor Walk. This is the time that HR is contiguously monitored and is useful in determining your workout intensity and calories burned.

Your activity during the day is still tracked by steps, etc., in the Activity App, even though you don't set the Workout App or have 10-min HR. And think about it, how useful is 10-min HR during activity anyway? Let's give Apple some credit for determining that it just isn't that useful. They have experts working on this stuff and know a lot more about when and how HR should be monitored and how useful it is than we do. They have given the us the flexibility to check HR anytime and record HR during exercise in a very easy and convenient way.

If you disagree with my opinion, post some sound reasons why the updated HR monitor isn't correct or useful when you ware the watch correctly... thigh on your wrist, just below the wrist bone.

Since seeing the updated explanation I've come to accept it a little more, However I would like a deeper explanation on it. Okay my arm has to be still, and this is fine, but I find myself sitting still on the train, arm in my lap for 30 minutes and still get no readings.

I'd just like I understand the reason for situations like this? Does moving slightly completely reset the 10 minute counter or something?

 

[thomasfxlt58]

I just read the Apple Website update on the HR monitor and, frankly, I don't have a problem with it. Let's think about how this works, instead of just assuming these changes are bad.

1. Automatic HR every 10 minutes while at rest - nice feature to see if you have accelerated HR for some reason.

2. Manual HR contiguously read from glances anytime you want to check it - Excellent feature that is extremely easy to use and user specified. This could be used after exercise to check recovery or any time you are active without using the workout App, just by a simple glance at your wrist.

3. Continuous 5-sec HR readings during workout using the App. - If you are going for a walk or any other exercise you want to track and record you can use this App to do it. For instance, if you were going to mow the lawn, and wanted to track it, set the Workout App to Outdoor Walk. This is the time that HR is contiguously monitored and is useful in determining your workout intensity and calories burned.

Your activity during the day is still tracked by steps, etc., in the Activity App, even though you don't set the Workout App or have 10-min HR. And think about it, how useful is 10-min HR during activity anyway? Let's give Apple some credit for determining that it just isn't that useful. They have experts working on this stuff and know a lot more about when and how HR should be monitored and how useful it is than we do. They have given the us the flexibility to check HR anytime and record HR during exercise in a very easy and convenient way.

If you disagree with my opinion, post some sound reasons why the updated HR monitor isn't correct or useful when you ware the watch correctly... thigh on your wrist, just below the wrist bone.

It's not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with how the update changed the operation. The real issue is that it changed after the launch. Why did they change it? Your notion that "they have experts working on this stuff" is true and they were working on this long before last week so what about the expert opinions prior to 1.0.1? The HR function was fundamentally changed between 1.0 and 1.0.1 and Apple purposefully altered it's marketing materials. That's a fact.

 

[colday]

Imagine you have done a gym session and you want to track your recovery time, you now need to stand still on the spot for the next 5-6 hours to get this data.

...

Shouldn't it pick up your recovery heart rate if you are still for 10 minutes? Where does the 5-6 hours come in?

Apple quote: Apple Watch attempts to measure your heart rate every 10 minutes, but won't record it when you're in motion or your arm is moving.

 

[Bob190]

Shouldn't it pick up your recovery heart rate if you are still for 10 minutes? Where does the 5-6 hours come in?

Apple quote: Apple Watch attempts to measure your heart rate every 10 minutes, but won't record it when you're in motion or your arm is moving.

We're talking completely still .. Like asleep. I don't know about you, but I am rarely still after a workout. So we are supposed to work out, then stand motionless for the next 30 minutes and hope we get a reading. That makes no sense. It should take the readings at defined intervals regardless of motion.

 

[Pagemakers]

I just read the Apple Website update on the HR monitor and, frankly, I don't have a problem with it. Let's think about how this works, instead of just assuming these changes are bad.

1. Automatic HR every 10 minutes while at rest - nice feature to see if you have accelerated HR for some reason.

I've been on the sofa watching Game of Thrones for the past 3 hours and not a single passive reading has been taken.

I'm obviously not watching the TV in a comatose state.

I must sit stiller!

 

[MLVC]

I wouldn't be surprised if they change it back in a future OS upgrade, just a hunch feeling.

 

[Pagemakers]

Shouldn't it pick up your recovery heart rate if you are still for 10 minutes? Where does the 5-6 hours come in?

Apple quote: Apple Watch attempts to measure your heart rate every 10 minutes, but won't record it when you're in motion or your arm is moving.

Recovery from excercise can take 5-6 hours or more. Unless you are COMPLETELY still during this period you will now need to use glances about 100 times + to get any true meaningful recovery information.

 

[DrewDaHilp1]

I emailed asking to be able to return the watch outside the return window, because I wouldn't have purchased it or would have returned it with the way the readings are happening now.

 

[Pagemakers]

I emailed asking to be able to return the watch outside the return window, because I wouldn't have purchased it or would have returned it with the way the readings are happening now.

I would just go into an Apple Store a request a refund. You have been mis-sold. I'm sure you will get your money back no questions asked.

 

[sailermon]

Think about what you are saying here. For instance, if I go on a hike in mountainous terrain and take 5,000 steps vs. taking 5,000 gingerly steps on a level track the AW will now assign the same number of calories burned without using the passive HR measurements. If that hike/walk took an hour, six readings would have shown an elevated HR or not and calculated accurate calories burned. I wouldn't consider either activity a workout, thus wouldn't use the workout mode.

Using just steps to gauge activity is what basic activity trackers do .. Not a device that costs $500. Plus if it is so unnecessary to gauge activity using a HR monitor why do industry leaders like Fitbit and Basis do it that way .. I am sure they have plenty of experts seeing how activity tracking is their main business. Stop making excuses for Apple who should know better.

All you need to do before the hike is set up an outdoor walk on the workout APP. You will get a more accurate calorie burn than if you were getting a HR every 10-minutes, as you would with ver. 1.00. I say again, the 10-minute readings during activity really isn't useful to calculate calories anyway, because of the inaccuracy. The inaccuracy of determining calories from the less accurate 10-minute readings is likely why Apple is no longer doing it. You need to use the workout App to get accurate calories from HR taken every 5-sec.

----------

Shouldn't it pick up your recovery heart rate if you are still for 10 minutes? Where does the 5-6 hours come in?

Apple quote: Apple Watch attempts to measure your heart rate every 10 minutes, but won't record it when you're in motion or your arm is moving.

All you need to do in this case is let the workout session keep going for a period during cool down to monitor HR recovery and record the whole thing. The App will calculate calories during this time based on HR and activity and show resting and active calories burned for the whole workout session. What more do you need?.

----------

I've been on the sofa watching Game of Thrones for the past 3 hours and not a single passive reading has been taken.

I'm obviously not watching the TV in a comatose state.

I must sit stiller!

Please tell me why you need these readings? If you do think you need them, raise your wrist!

 

[Pagemakers]

All you need to do before the hike is set up an outdoor walk on the workout APP. You will get a more accurate calorie burn than if you were getting a HR every 10-minutes, as you would with ver. 1.00. I say again, the 10-minute reading during activity really isn't useful to calculate calories anyway, because of the inaccuracy. The inaccuracy of determining calories from the less accurate 10-minute reading is likely why Apple is no longer doing it. You need to use the workout App to get accurate calories from HR taken every 5-sec.

----------



All you need to do in this case is let the workout session keep going for a period during cool down to monitor HR recovery and record the whole thing. The App will calculate calories during this time based on HR and activity and show resting and active calories burned for the whole workout session. What more do you need?.

----------



Please tell me why you need these readings? If you do think you need them, raise your wrist!

I want my resting readings for medical reasons. That was the main reason for purchasing the watch.

Excercise recovery can take several hours not a few minutes so keeping the workout session for several hours after the excercise is not only impractical it will run the battery down unnecessary.

However, above and beyond off of this, Apple have fundamentally changed a core feature of the product. A core feature that may be of little interest to you but could be of interest to millions of other users like myself.

 

[Krashj]

*Question*
If I understand correctly, you must have some sort of elevated HR to close your exercise circle each day. Are you folks on 1.0.1 able to close that ring if it's not routinely checking to see if you have an elevated HR (have not yet updated - must close all circles )

 

[Pagemakers]

*Question*
If I understand correctly, you must have some sort of elevated HR to close your exercise circle each day. Are you folks on 1.0.1 able to close that ring if it's not routinely checking to see if you have an elevated HR (have not yet updated - must close all circles )

Yes it closes if you work out and top up by some general activity.

 

[millerrh]

*Question*
If I understand correctly, you must have some sort of elevated HR to close your exercise circle each day. Are you folks on 1.0.1 able to close that ring if it's not routinely checking to see if you have an elevated HR (have not yet updated - must close all circles )

My assumption based on earlier marketing materials was that AW would check your activity in the background (including heart rate) and close your circles throughout the day.

In actuality, if I don't engage the Workout App, it is near impossible to close circles. If I do engage the Workout App, I can sometimes double or triple my circles.

A fitness tracker should be able to monitor your activity in the background in order to pick up all the things you do even when you are not going for a dedicated workout session. The Workout app should be used to give added functionality (i.e. distances/GPS, timers, and even more accuracy by more frequent heart measurements). But it should not be this different with and without Workout being open.

The way this currently is, I absolutely do not trust my rings to be accurate at all. And if they are not accurate (or even consistent), how can you even use them to monitor progress? This thing is basically worthless as a fitness device. And that was the main reason I purchased it.

Never done this before, but I sent a letter to Tim Cook expressing my disappointment with the way Apple has handled this aspect of the Watch launch. Changing your marketing material after the fact is simply false advertising. Many people purchased this to be a fitness tracker and it simply isn't.

 

[PaladinGuy]

Completely agree with you. If it's going to try to tell me how many calories I've burned in the day, it absolutely needs the 10min readings. The HRM is what made caloric estimates more reliable on AW than others. I was so pumped because of how accurate I found the HRM to be initially. It actually became less reliable in workout mode after the update for me. I sometimes have to restart the workout session one or two times before it will start reading my heart rate.

 

[millerrh]

Yes it closes if you work out and top up by some general activity.

Not if you don't use the Workout app. Seems like it really will only close the rings based on readings while the workout app is engaged. Calories and exercise minutes outside of using the workout app are weak at best - even when working out.

An example - I was at the driving range today for 2.5 hours. Glanced at my heart rate at one point - 135bpm. I was getting tired and was sweaty by the end of it. It logged 160 calories and 4 minutes of exercise. I'm guessing if I would have used the "Other" workout for 2.5 hours, I would have closed my rings and then some.

So why is there this difference? The watch should work passively in the background and give you a reasonable reading whether you engage this Workout app or not.

 

[mariotr87]

All you need to do before the hike is set up an outdoor walk on the workout APP. You will get a more accurate calorie burn than if you were getting a HR every 10-minutes, as you would with ver. 1.00. I say again, the 10-minute readings during activity really isn't useful to calculate calories anyway, because of the inaccuracy. The inaccuracy of determining calories from the less accurate 10-minute readings is likely why Apple is no longer doing it. You need to use the workout App to get accurate calories from HR taken every 5-sec.

----------

I agree with the fact that readings performed while not working out (as in, not using the dedicated workout app) are probably way less accurate than the ones taken while doing it. But the watch should still do its best to take them as accurately and as regularly as possible in order to be able to infer what is and what is not a workout; sure, there's a dedicated app for that, you tap a few buttons to set it up and a few more to finish it, but this only makes sense for dedicated, time-bound workouts. Sometimes workouts are not planned (you might be in a hurry and have to run all the way to the bus stop), some others, you spend so much time in a day doing lots a micro-workouts (e.g. when you go hiking on a Sunday) that it's not realistic to think that creating a huge, 8-hours long workout would be possible (in fact your watch would be dead after a couple of hours). Note that accuracy is not so important in this case.

All you need to do in this case is let the workout session keep going for a period during cool down to monitor HR recovery and record the whole thing. The App will calculate calories during this time based on HR and activity and show resting and active calories burned for the whole workout session. What more do you need?.

----------

A "workout" is not something you start and stop to track your heart rate. It's something you start and stop to track well...your workout. When the workout is finished, you stop tracking it. That way you get the total amount of calories burned, the amount of time it lasted, average heart rate, time of start and time of completion, etc. It would be nice (actually, I'm still on 1.0, so I can say it is really nice) to be able to check roughly how quickly you recover. Again, accuracy is not important here, but a couple of readings, paired with your pedometer input and some smart heuristics would be enough to provide some pretty useful information.

 

[Pagemakers]

I would encourage anyone unhappy about this to tip or contact the major Apple/Tech blogs to hopefully have them report on the change.

Apple probably doesn't care about a few returns, but bad press gets their attention.

Here are few I read:

MacRumors
iMore
9to5mac
Engadget
Mashable
CNET

I reported it to Sky News. Maybe they'll carry the story.

 

[tivoboy]

distinction

Sorry, but that's just not true. The Basis Peak for instance tracks heart rate continuously and uses that plus the accelerometer, a perspiration sensor and a skin temp sensor to very accurately determine sleep stage.

http://www.mybasis.com/wp-content/u...-of-Basis-Science-Advanced-Sleep-Analysis.pdf

I had a Basis Peak and can attest that it is a very accurate sleep tracking device. Should have kept it, and skipped the AW.

Only the most basic trackers use movement only, like iPhone apps.

At a minimum the AW should use the accelerometer and HR sensor for sleep tracking.

I was making a distinction based on the above posts statement about SLEEP TRACKERS (apps mostly)...and not FITNESS TRACKERS that can double as sleep tracking. Certainly there are FITNESS trackers that can overlay what HR data they collect ontop of their sleep data.

Also, "doesn't generally" doesn't mean never or that none have this feature. It means the overall majority don't do it.

Traditional consumer grade SLEEP TRACKERS (which I have been using for nearly 10 years now) were not tracking HR, it was either too expensive, too energy intensive or as the research shows not necessary to match the level of SLEEP tracking that the traditional 20 sensor polysomnography lab based trackers were using. Studies have shown that quality motion and accelerometer only based trackers can be very close within 97% of polysomnography tracking without the overhead of all the equipment. Granted, it doesn't yield any further insights into what is going on with the user. Sleep Apnea, non-circadian rhythmicity of cortisol response, nightmares, tremors, etc.. AND the added benefit is the subject isn't required to go to a lab - which truly throws off any real study of a subjects sleep cycle.

today, we don't really have too many dedicated consumer only SLEEP TRACKERS as most consumer grade fitness product makers see a better market for ACTIVITY trackers that can do fitness, health, motion and ALSO do SLEEP TRACKING.

As noted somewhere here, sleep tracking APPS almost never did heart rate tracking. There were a few a year or so ago that would pair with a heart rate monitor strap, and another that would pair with a MIO and yet another that would pair with a strip you put under your mattress. But the results were poor with trying to capture good HD readings & overlay true HR data. Again, it's not really necessary.

That said, I do FULLY expect Apple to integrate a sleep mode into the watch soon enough, most likely disabling the HR sensor or switching it to every 30 minutes at most frequent, looking for motion of course first and then taking a reading. It's certainly better at this point from a energy usage standpoint to just maybe enable motion tracking and try to work more on the algorithm to overlay sleep zones/periods/stages.

 

[Glideslope]

Well....

.....at least we now know why Jony was promoted out of Day to Day Software Decisions.

 

[tivoboy]

*Question*
If I understand correctly, you must have some sort of elevated HR to close your exercise circle each day. Are you folks on 1.0.1 able to close that ring if it's not routinely checking to see if you have an elevated HR (have not yet updated - must close all circles )

yes, it does seem someone ironic that until 1.01, one needed to elevate their HR enough to add minutes to "exercise" without actually doing a workout/activity and tracking it with the activity app. That required MOTION in order to elevate the heart rate.

At this point MOTION seems to be what is disabling the heart rate measurement and the watch will not capture until the motion has stopped or stopped enough to get a solid quality. at THAT point the motion may be such that it is not elevated enough to be included in minutes that would add to exercise and would not add to the daily minutes outside of an official activity..

So, we've definitely taken one step backwards.

I for one wasn't having any trouble with battery life, quite the contrary it was better than expected. I'm not sure if apple did this because constant measurement was costly from an energy standpoint (we know it is, since turning off heart rate tracking definitely increases battery life) or if apple was hearing peoples claims that my DAILY CALORIES were WAY TOO HIGH (from an expenditure standpoint, compare to other tradition calorie requirement formulas or trackers) and they decided that this "exercise/activity" that was being tracked was what was pushing a normal amount of daily active calories spent over the top?

or a bit of both