Here Are All the iPhone Changes Coming to EU Users by March 6

[svish]

A lot of changes! I think it is only a matter of time before Apple is forced to implement the same changes everywhere else

 

[NagasakiGG]

I want to play music and movies on my Switch.
No app because Nintendo wont allow it. VLC on it would be awesome.
Been talked about and shouldnt be hard to implement.

You can actually. The best and first thing you have to do with a switch is anyway install a modchip

 

[PortoMavericks]

DMA is a law. This is Apple's (IMO brilliant) way of complying with the law.

It is likely that compenies like Spotify will sue Apple - arguing that Apple's new agreement is not following the law. In the end of the day, courts will resolve if this is compatible with DMA. If it is, there will be another round of lobbying to adjust the law to push Apple do what the lobbying companies want (make everything free for them).

Actually, the law can give general guidance and power to a specific organization inside a government to regulate a sector (think about the FDA and FTC when they don't have to go to the justice every time they need to act).

I really don't know how the law was passed.

 

[wbeasley]

In the EU, you own a copy of the software and you can do with it as much as you please. Our country is not like yours apparently where I buy a hammer and ten years later the shop can still tell me which nails to buy.

you use the most bizarre and extreme use case scenarios as "answers".

all the links i've looked at show EU buyers of software can sell it on to someone else BUT they dont own and can't use it then, you also do not own the copyright so you CANT use it as you like.

 

[wbeasley]

You can actually. The best and first thing you have to do with a switch is anyway install a modchip

but i dont want to fiddle witht he hardware when a simple VLC app would work.
but Nintendo dont seem to want to allow it to happen...

go on EU. Legislate

 

[wbeasley]

You’ve clearly never owned an Android phone if you think there is any app parity between it and iOS. Android lacks so many big iPhone apps it’s not even funny.

At the same time there isn’t really any chaos in Androidland. Even stores with mass adoption like Samsung’s App Gallery gain very little traction. But at least I can download an app from the internet and run it myself on Android; I don’t need grandfather Apple telling me what I can and cannot do

But I don’t use an Android device because all the apps I want are on iOS.

hahah I own and use Android and iphones so you should perhaps think before making broad statements

the chaos in Android land I have seen.
i supported a work app for both types of phones and Android users always had harder to solve issues due too all the different hardware and skins on OS.

then there was the installed virus on Android that killed our work email system repeatedly.
because some novice installed something from an email link...

Apple provide an very intergrated, curated and whole system experience that largely just works... safely.

 

[wbeasley]

Unless I buy physical media.

you still down own software even if downloaded... they still have EULAs.

you can sell them on, but you forfeit your ownership and usage rights.

 

[makitango]

you still down own software even if downloaded... they still have EULAs.

you can sell them on, but you forfeit your ownership and usage rights.

Many things in EULAs are not enforcable in the EU, as you can see here per an example with the redistribution clause. You can also ask an AI and it will give you similar answers. Here's one.


First, EU law gives users certain rights to use software they have purchased. These rights include the right to use the software for its intended purpose, the right to make backup copies, and the right to decompile the software in order to fix bugs or make other modifications.

Second, EULAs are not always enforceable. In some cases, courts have found that EULAs are so unfair or unreasonable that they are not binding. This is especially true for EULAs that attempt to restrict users' rights to use the software in ways that are not prohibited by law.

Third, even if an EULA is enforceable, it may not be able to prevent you from making certain modifications to the software. For example, some EULAs prohibit users from reverse engineering the software, but this right is protected by EU law.

As a result of these principles, it is often possible to legally change software in the EU even if the EULA says it's not allowed. However, it is important to consult with an attorney to make sure that your specific modifications are legal.

Here are some specific examples of when you may be able to legally change software in the EU even if the EULA says it's not allowed:

• Making bug fixes: You are allowed to decompile the software to make bug fixes, even if the EULA prohibits this.
• Making accessibility modifications: You are allowed to make modifications to the software to make it more accessible to people with disabilities, even if the EULA prohibits this.
• Creating derivative works: If you are a copyright holder, you are allowed to create derivative works of software that you have licensed, even if the EULA prohibits this.
• Reverse engineering for interoperability: You are allowed to reverse engineer the software to make it interoperable with other software, even if the EULA prohibits this.

You see, as an EU citizen, I can do plenty of stuff already and there is nothing Apple or you can do about it. My citizen rights are above any EULA. They can write in that EULA that I agree to let them cut off my toes and it will hold just as little weight.

 

[I7guy]

Many things in EULAs are not enforcable in the EU, as you can see here per an example with the redistribution clause. You can also ask an AI and it will give you similar answers. Here's one.


First, EU law gives users certain rights to use software they have purchased. These rights include the right to use the software for its intended purpose, the right to make backup copies, and the right to decompile the software in order to fix bugs or make other modifications.

Second, EULAs are not always enforceable. In some cases, courts have found that EULAs are so unfair or unreasonable that they are not binding. This is especially true for EULAs that attempt to restrict users' rights to use the software in ways that are not prohibited by law.

Third, even if an EULA is enforceable, it may not be able to prevent you from making certain modifications to the software. For example, some EULAs prohibit users from reverse engineering the software, but this right is protected by EU law.

As a result of these principles, it is often possible to legally change software in the EU even if the EULA says it's not allowed. However, it is important to consult with an attorney to make sure that your specific modifications are legal.

Here are some specific examples of when you may be able to legally change software in the EU even if the EULA says it's not allowed:

• Making bug fixes: You are allowed to decompile the software to make bug fixes, even if the EULA prohibits this.
• Making accessibility modifications: You are allowed to make modifications to the software to make it more accessible to people with disabilities, even if the EULA prohibits this.
• Creating derivative works: If you are a copyright holder, you are allowed to create derivative works of software that you have licensed, even if the EULA prohibits this.
• Reverse engineering for interoperability: You are allowed to reverse engineer the software to make it interoperable with other software, even if the EULA prohibits this.

You see, as an EU citizen, I can do plenty of stuff already and there is nothing Apple or you can do about it. My citizen rights are above any EULA. They can write in that EULA that I agree to let them cut off my toes and it will hold just as little weight.

You can do whatever you want with your phone and software as long as it’s for personal use. Try to decompile iOS and then resell it, in most locales it won’t end well for you.

 

[Ctrlos]

you still down own software even if downloaded... they still have EULAs.

you can sell them on, but you forfeit your ownership and usage rights.

They are still mine to sell out otherwise do with as I like. The point of I have options on where I buy my media. The eshop, PSN etc are not the exclusive suggested vendors for their platform. Heck, I can buy 2nd hand discs of I like.

 

[wbeasley]

They are still mine to sell out otherwise do with as I like. The point of I have options on where I buy my media. The eshop, PSN etc are not the exclusive suggested vendors for their platform. Heck, I can buy 2nd hand discs of I like.

you can buy second hand discs because it's physical.
In theory you should own a backup or ripped copy after you sell it.

With software it's the same, you dont own it. you can sell the device with it on but you dont have any further use rights.
The saoftware agreement also very clearer spells out what you cant do with the software including decompiling, reverse engineering or modifying in a manner they dont agree with.

 

[wbeasley]

You can do whatever you want with your phone and software as long as it’s for personal use. Try to decompile iOS and then resell it, in most locales it won’t end well for you.

makitango is just proving the issue with software (and app stores outside Apples)... sounds very much like pirating and non-honouring agreements of ownership.

noone, including Apple, have an issue if you buy a phone and later sell it on.
the new owner owns the hardware and rights to use the phone.

but i'm struggling to see where these people are going to use their software if they dont have hardware...

i would like to know what apps these people NEED to get on their phones...

 

[makitango]

makitango is just proving the issue with software (and app stores outside Apples)... sounds very much like pirating and non-honouring agreements of ownership.

I am just saying that I don't have to adhere to "agreements" that are declared illegal. If Apple writes in the EULA that I promise to obtain a slave then it would still be illegal and I don't have to follow that. Simple as that.
By offering the product in my country Apple already signed a superior agreement to that of the EULA that it will abide to local laws first. Nothing that they do afterwards, like an EULA, will have dominion over those laws or to the agreement that they signed when they established a domestic business in the host country.

I don't have to feel the slightest regret by not honoring those passages and I don't understand why you keep on ignoring this very easy to understand principle and right and try to criminalize people on your suspicion of piracy. Some of us simply want Little Snitch or getting to use software like the developer envisioned them. If I download Chrome, I don't want a Safari reskin but the full Chrome experience, and that includes its own browser engine. Legitimate software.
If there is anything immoral, then it is not me "violating" the EULA, but it is Apple who puts illegal statements in the EULA against citizens of countries where these things are considered illegal and where Apple already agreed to abide the law. By defending Apple here, you support Apple in violating their agreement with host countries whose laws they said they would abide. That is the ultimate EULA and Apple was contesting that.

noone, including Apple, have an issue if you buy a phone and later sell it on.
the new owner owns the hardware and rights to use the phone.

You clearly have ignored the rest of the rights that we have about changing the software.

but i'm struggling to see where these people are going to use their software if they dont have hardware...

i would like to know what apps these people NEED to get on their phones...

Have you ever lived in a totaliarism state and be on their "lists"? If not, don't speak for others. And this is what sideloading is about. You don't get to make the choice for others on what they get to install.

 

[makitango]

you can buy second hand discs because it's physical.
In theory you should own a backup or ripped copy after you sell it.

With software it's the same, you dont own it. you can sell the device with it on but you dont have any further use rights.
The saoftware agreement also very clearer spells out what you cant do with the software including decompiling, reverse engineering or modifying in a manner they dont agree with.

The EULA holds zero value over your rights as a citizen in the country where the software was distributed. If the EULA says no to decompiling and your state says yes, and it was sold to you in this state, then this passage of the EULA is void.

 

[wbeasley]

The EULA holds zero value over your rights as a citizen in the country where the software was distributed. If the EULA says no to decompiling and your state says yes, and it was sold to you in this state, then this passage of the EULA is void.

from searching there is a reason to decompile but it's not quite as open slather as you make out...

if the vendor had a bug they didnt fix, you could do it.
if they went broke or turned their servers off, you could circumvent it.
if their terms werent clear it was a legal agreement and the deliberately hide things then you can.

and decompiling might still have issues as it comes out as text which would have copyright associated with it...

so tell me what software you are planning on installing on your Apple device with a new store and payment option?

 

[wbeasley]

The EULA holds zero value over your rights as a citizen in the country where the software was distributed. If the EULA says no to decompiling and your state says yes, and it was sold to you in this state, then this passage of the EULA is void.

so if you like your neighbours house, can you just move in?
or if you rent and dont like the contract, you stop paying and keep the house?

 

[makitango]

from searching there is a reason to decompile but it's not quite as open slather as you make out...

if the vendor had a bug they didnt fix, you could do it.
if they went broke or turned their servers off, you could circumvent it.
if their terms werent clear it was a legal agreement and the deliberately hide things then you can.

You are saying this as if those are the only rights. It's not. Those are just examples.

and decompiling might still have issues as it comes out as text which would have copyright associated with it...

Might, may, could... that's a non-issue in the present.

so tell me what software you are planning on installing on your Apple device with a new store and payment option?

First thing will be Chrome and hopefully having their own browser engine will also allow them to easily port extensions. Next thing will be Steam (this can become quite interesting), VS Code is out of the books for now because I would only use it on a tablet at bare minimum.

The different browsers with their browser engines are the #1 thing because of website testing actually.

 

[makitango]

so if you like your neighbours house, can you just move in?

Why ask such a weird question? It is clear that I only bought my own house. I am subject only to my own and all agreements with the old seller have to be covered under law, and I am only subject to the law of the state where the house was sold.

or if you rent and dont like the contract, you stop paying and keep the house?

As a matter of fact, here in Germany you don't have to contunie paying at all if the landlord violates his responsibilities severely. Incremental exemptions from having to pay rent also apply and are normal, and any landlord thinking of retaliatory action will find themselves in an uncomfortable situation in front of the law. Germany is a tenant-friendly country, you cannot simply throw out a person if a contract has been established which is in line with the law.

So here we are again, what matters is the law and it doesn't matter what scenario you draw up, the law will always overrule any funny stuff Apple comes up with. It's the same in every other place in the world, even in your beloved US.

 

[Ifti]

One thing I liked about the Apple ecosystem is the security and sandboxed design. Yes, this limits how you can use the system, but it just worked. These changes will reduce security a whole lot, and that concerns me. I certainly wont install anything outside of the standard App Store, and will be advising my family to do the same.

 

[wbeasley]

Why ask such a weird question? It is clear that I only bought my own house. I am subject only to my own and all agreements with the old seller have to be covered under law, and I am only subject to the law of the state where the house was sold.

As a matter of fact, here in Germany you don't have to contunie paying at all if the landlord violates his responsibilities severely. Incremental exemptions from having to pay rent also apply and are normal, and any landlord thinking of retaliatory action will find themselves in an uncomfortable situation in front of the law. Germany is a tenant-friendly country, you cannot simply throw out a person if a contract has been established which is in line with the law.

So here we are again, what matters is the law and it doesn't matter what scenario you draw up, the law will always overrule any funny stuff Apple comes up with. It's the same in every other place in the world, even in your beloved US.

Oh so in a tenant friendly environment, it's OK to enforce an agreement so long as it benefits you and not the owner? And that's fair?

And I don't live in the US. Hahaha. Typical inference

Have a look at the Gaza conflict... I see Jewish settlers claiming they own the land (and can knock down existing houses) because their "contract" is a Bible. Even EULA as I stated aren't simply ignored in EU countries. There are specific reasons you can do certain actionsL fixing bugs (yourself) and lack of ongoing support (abandoned software effectively).

You still havent given an example of one bit of software you NEED to side load...

Accept that most iOS users have had 15 years of using the system and accept the tradeoffs for the environment, vetting, payments and security. IT experts are vocal but the minority of users.

 

[wbeasley]

you

You are saying this as if those are the only rights. It's not. Those are just examples.

Might, may, could... that's a non-issue in the present.

First thing will be Chrome and hopefully having their own browser engine will also allow them to easily port extensions. Next thing will be Steam (this can become quite interesting), VS Code is out of the books for now because I would only use it on a tablet at bare minimum.

The different browsers with their browser engines are the #1 thing because of website testing actually.

can already install iOS Chrome from the store.

and Steam Mobile...

There are apps that dont run on phones but only iPads. Perhaps the devs know you need screen real estate?

The one webkit for all iOS browsers means you are only having to test one basically and they all work.

I still think you have other plans you're not sharing ("sharing" being the operative word...)

 

[makitango]

Oh so in a tenant friendly environment, it's OK to enforce an agreement so long as it benefits you and not the owner? And that's fair?

What's fair or not doesn't matter, what matters is that it's a legal agreement.

And I don't live in the US. Hahaha. Typical inference

What about it is typical?

Have a look at the Gaza conflict... I see Jewish settlers claiming they own the land (and can knock down existing houses) because their "contract" is a Bible. Even EULA as I stated aren't simply ignored in EU countries. There are specific reasons you can do certain actionsL fixing bugs (yourself) and lack of ongoing support (abandoned software effectively).

It's not just about bugfixes or someone neglecting their product, and you know it. People have the right to adjust software in a matter that is considered reasonable. The reasoning has been backed by the EU in the shape of a law so that it's unambiguous.

You still havent given an example of one bit of software you NEED to side load...

I did. I need Chrome with its own engine for website testing and I need Little Snitch, as an example, on my Mac, to ensure data flows in a controlled manner. When you're dealing with customer data and have heard of the GDPR then you should know that if there are means to improve security (which LS does), you gotta take and not ignore that.

Accept that most iOS users have had 15 years of using the system and accept the tradeoffs for the environment, vetting, payments and security. IT experts are vocal but the minority of users.

Most iOS users where there since the launch of the iPhone? Where do you smoke off that data?

can already install iOS Chrome from the store.

A Safari reskin without the most important thing which makes Chrome Chrome, which is its own engine. That's not Chrome. That's like a Ferrari with a Lamborghini engine, an abomination.

and Steam Mobile...

Steam Mobile would be a different app if they had the freedom to code their app like they wanted, and you know it.

There are apps that dont run on phones but only iPads. Perhaps the devs know you need screen real estate?

I don't get your meaning.

The one webkit for all iOS browsers means you are only having to test one basically and they all work.

No. It just means that only Safari has been tested.

I still think you have other plans you're not sharing ("sharing" being the operative word...)

Feel free to think that, but that's just negative intent, and rude.

 

[Silly John Fatty]

Its not a monopoly when the same apps are available on iOS and Android.
You just want the same rules (and chaos) of Android on iPhone hardware.

Purchasers decide what works for them.
If Apple didnt meet the buyer needs, they wouldnt be selling as many phones as they are.

Anyone who doesnt like it is FREE to buy any Android phone.
That's free market in action.

It's an Oligopoly … or Duopoly more precisely. Your lesson for today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duopoly

It's the exact opposite of a free market 🤣

The mechanics of a free market would result in hundreds of different companies and operating systems of high quality and low prices all over the world, all very competitive and innovative, not just two companies that produce mediocre quality and promote high prices.

At this point I'm not sure why this situation even exists, but I'd say it needs to end. It's most likely US institutions failing to do their job and acting protectionist. But they should rather stick to their own laws and put an end to this duopolistic situation. I'm sure monopolies and related forms are forbidden in their laws, and I'm honestly surprised to see this happening in a place promoting itself as having something to do with free market.

But in the end, it will do more harm to everybody. It's certainly an uncomfortable problem to resolve for the institutions and the administration, but it's better to resolve these kind of things asap, and have a healthy system and be free.

The problem will grow, innovation will become even more scarce, and at some point everything will crash and be replaced by a superior Chinese OS that has been, as we'll hear then, preparing this situation for a long time.

 

[Yenzi999]

What with older iPhones? iPhone X and older devices didn’t get an iOS17.

So it looks like older iPhones will be outside the EU???

I guess, the implemented changes doesn't require the newest chip.

Also similar issue with lack of Senior Mode implementation on older iPhones (only available in iOS17).

Mother Nature?

 

[Qubelek]

Thank you EU for bringing such valuable changes in iOS. I will not update to 17.4 because I don’t need any of these changes ;D
PS. I live in EU