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MrNomNoms

macrumors 65816
Jan 25, 2011
1,156
294
Wellington, New Zealand
What people and HP seem to be forgetting is this; Thunderbolt is an enabling technology as well because it clicks straight into the PCIe chipset which means that it is only a matter of time before someone makes a USB3 break out box that hooks straight into thunderbolt just as there are already ethernet and firewire adapters already (based on some quick searching). The point being is that in the future Apple can get rid of USB/Firewire/etc and just have a set of thunderbolt ports on the back and then sell the required adapters for those who need them thus drastically simplifying their motherboard designs.

As for HP, they've always been a has been of a company who does zero innovation - name the last innovative thing that came out of HP that didn't involve downloading a 300MB driver package or a piece of buggy bloatware that slows down the system and sprawls crap from one end of the hard disk to the other. HP quite frankly should be the very last company being asked when it comes to anything innovative or pushing the envelop.
 

Winni

macrumors 68040
Oct 15, 2008
3,207
1,196
Germany.
And HP's opinion is relevant, why? Not sure what they've contributed to the industry, besides being another PC maker clone,...

Yes, they are a PC maker, and they are one of the biggest and sell more units than Apple. Their opinion is very relevant in the industry and their decisions have an effect on more people than Apple's. Despite the immense success of the iOS gadgets, Macs are still rather unimportant niche products. HP and Dell are the big boys in the corporate world where most people probably don't even know that Apple began its life as a computer company.
 

SeaFox

macrumors 68030
Jul 22, 2003
2,619
954
Somewhere Else
Oh, I see the HP fanbois are rolling in here. Voting down anyone who quips about the quality of HP computers. They haven't been in a Best Buy lately. Lots of cheap shiny black plastic and chrome accents on what are now low quality PCs.

I owned an original HP Deskwriter, and a Deskwriter 660c. You know what the difference is between HP quality then and HP quality now? When you throw a modern HP printer at a wall you get a smashed printer. When you threw a Deskwriter (original or the 660) at the wall you might still have a working printer... you definitely had a hole in your wall.

HP is like PB now.
 

RichardBeer

macrumors regular
Jul 11, 2009
226
1
England
On a historical note, who was the company that in their judgement turned down Wozniak's original Apple computer... Oh right! Hewlett-Packard!
 

PlipPlop

macrumors 6502a
Aug 10, 2010
565
0
What people and HP seem to be forgetting is this; Thunderbolt is an enabling technology as well because it clicks straight into the PCIe chipset which means that it is only a matter of time before someone makes a USB3 break out box that hooks straight into thunderbolt just as there are already ethernet and firewire adapters already (based on some quick searching). The point being is that in the future Apple can get rid of USB/Firewire/etc and just have a set of thunderbolt ports on the back and then sell the required adapters for those who need them thus drastically simplifying their motherboard designs.

As for HP, they've always been a has been of a company who does zero innovation - name the last innovative thing that came out of HP that didn't involve downloading a 300MB driver package or a piece of buggy bloatware that slows down the system and sprawls crap from one end of the hard disk to the other. HP quite frankly should be the very last company being asked when it comes to anything innovative or pushing the envelop.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...thers-of-invention-who-changed-it-467704.html

lol
 

AAPLaday

Guest
Aug 6, 2008
2,411
2
Manchester UK
Just give it time. Its great tech but we are just coming in at the start of the cycle. Intel supports it too as well as Apple so i have faith in it being widely adopted over the next year or so
 

baryon

macrumors 68040
Oct 3, 2009
3,878
2,929
Hope Thunderbolt doesn't end up like Mini DisplayPort: adopted by no one, compatible with nothing :D
 

layte

macrumors regular
Jul 23, 2008
205
13
Don't think your right about that.

Well I am. With USB2 you can read and write at 30something MB a second to an external HDD. Nowhere near that on a iDevice. I just copied a 300MB video file from my iPhone4 to my computer, it took 23 seconds, a lowly 13MB/sec. Reads are usually quicker than write operations on flash ROM as well.
 

Piggie

macrumors G3
Feb 23, 2010
9,117
4,016
Do you think we will see Apple scrapping it's old docking connector on the iPhone, iPad and iPod touch, make a clean start and replace it with a single Thunderbolt connector?

So that, from next year, all Apple devices can connect to each other at the same high speed using this same new connector?
 

vestigo74

macrumors member
Aug 8, 2008
59
0
Calgary, AB
We should all be well aware by now that one thing Apple is TERRIBLE at is setting industry standards.

Firewire was a fail and only ever existed on Macs and a very, very select number of desktops.

DisplayPort hasn't even made it onto any non-Apple product

Thunderbolt so far exists on a small selection of Apple hardware with no clear push or motivation to getting it adopted wider. Apple should be meeting with the Dell's and HP's of the world - they are the only people that have the volume and power to force the standard into the industry.

Apple simply sucks at getting new ports onto computers, period.

This is one of the worst posts I've read on this site.

1. Apple was the first company to adopt USB, drop the floppy disk drive, adopt the CD drive, and drop the CD/DVD drive.

2. FireWire might be a "fail" to someone who never uses it, but I and many, many, many other professionals use FireWire every single day. FireWire was always intended to be a pro tool. If you're not someone who uses FireWire, that's fine, but don't minimize its usefulness for those of us who do.

3. DisplayPort hasn't even made it onto any non-Apple product? Are you kidding me? Here's a 20-page search result at Newegg.com that begs to differ with you: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...iption=displayport&page=1&bop=And&Pagesize=20

4. Thunderbolt is 2 months old. It's "only" on Apple hardware right now, because Apple is the first manufacturer to adopt it. How on Earth does a brand new technology that is only 2 months old get branded as a failure because it hasn't seen wide-spread adoption yet?

As for HP not adopting Thunderbolt... I think the company with the worst product reliability and customer satisfaction ratings in the industry has more important things to worry about than whether or not they adopt Thunderbolt right now. The last I checked, the only thing HP leads the industry in is the number of returned products at retail stores.
 

organerito

macrumors 6502
Nov 9, 2008
407
19
And we care about HP because?

Do they actually bring anything to the party or do they stick with cheap simple designs like Dell?

I do see their thoughts on how USB 3 is enough for the Jones but in the coming months Thunderbolt equipment will come out that will change that.

This reminds me of why do people need more than DSL what could you even do with more and more capacity.

Bla bla bla that what HP sound like.

Would it be because they sell more computers than anyone else?
 

Steve121178

macrumors 603
Apr 13, 2010
6,402
6,956
Bedfordshire, UK
Do you think we will see Apple scrapping it's old docking connector on the iPhone, iPad and iPod touch, make a clean start and replace it with a single Thunderbolt connector?

So that, from next year, all Apple devices can connect to each other at the same high speed using this same new connector?

0% chance of that happening, unless Apple wants to alienate the 99.99% of customers who do not have TB.
 

bruinsrme

macrumors 604
Oct 26, 2008
7,174
3,036
Hope Thunderbolt doesn't end up like Mini DisplayPort: adopted by no one, compatible with nothing :D

So far it's off to a good start.
There are a few things out there but I don't see the products as affordable or useful with an mbp.

Wonder why ivy bridge will support thunderbolt and usb3?

I'll unload my 13 mbp if the next update has usb3.
It would be nice to take advantage of USB 3 speeds today vice thunderbolt speeds of whenever.
 

MrNomNoms

macrumors 65816
Jan 25, 2011
1,156
294
Wellington, New Zealand

Thanks for re-enforcing what I stated; the article lists non-IT related 'innovations' and when they are IT related they occurred over 30 years ago - tell me about something they've done in the last ten years then I might give the remotest sense of a crap.

Oh, and way to go not addressing a single point I raised in the first paragraph - now run along PC fanboy, back to your Windows forum where you talk about the joy of dealing with drive letters in 2011.
 

PlipPlop

macrumors 6502a
Aug 10, 2010
565
0
Thanks for re-enforcing what I stated; the article lists non-IT related 'innovations' and when they are IT related they occurred over 30 years ago - tell me about something they've done in the last ten years then I might give the remotest sense of a crap.

I would think there grid computing and compression algorithms are very IT related :rolleyes:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/news/2004/july_sept/israel10.html



by Jamie Beckett

It's hard to believe now, but establishing an HP research center in Israel was once considered a risky proposition.

It was the mid 1990s, and the technology industry was just emerging from a recession. HP's only successful research laboratory outside its Palo Alto, CA, headquarters were facilities in Cambridge, MA, and in Bristol, England, where the company already had business operations. No such operation existed in Israel at the time.

Now celebrating its 10th anniversary, HP Labs Israel has more than proven its worth. The small team of about a dozen researchers has made key contributions to nearly all of HP’s digital cameras and scanners and to most of the company’s printers. They’re prolific inventors, with 37 granted patents and another 58 patent applications pending with the U.S. Patent Office.


Top talent
"This extraordinary success is no accident," says Dick Lampman, director of HP Labs and senior vice president for research, HP. "It is the talent of the people who make all of this possible -- especially the exceptional leadership of Senior HP Fellow Abraham Lempel ."

Lempel, who founded and runs the lab, is well known in the scientific community as one of the world’s leading experts in noiseless source coding and computational complexity. He co-invented the Lempel-Ziv Algorithm, the most popular lossless compression data algorithm to this day.

Lempel began his association with HP in 1984, working in Palo Alto while on a sabbatical after completing a four-year term as chairman of the computer science department at Technion, Israel's oldest and premier institute of science and technology. Less than a year later, he set about trying to establish an HP research branch in Israel.

"I liked working for HP and I wanted to live in Israel," he explains. "This was a way to do both."


Building the lab
Nearly a decade (and many meetings) later, Lempel became HP's first employee in Israel.

Then, says Lempel, he began worrying about making HP Labs Israel a success. "Until then, the primary challenge had been all the bureaucracy in getting it established," he recalls. "Now came the real thing -- having to prove it was all worthwhile."

As he went about building a staff, Lempel focused on researchers with talent, a proven ability to conduct independent research and an open mind.

Knowing the team would be small, "Abraham looked for depth of expertise and skills that could be applied to a variety of research topics instead of only to the immediate problems at hand," Lampman says. "He focused on bringing in the highest-level talent."


Teamwork essential
Another policy Lempel set early on -- a heavy emphasis on collaboration. HP Labs Israel is located on the Technion campus, atop Mount Carmel overlooking the city of Haifa, and the team often works with faculty from Technion. Lempel also encourages staff to teach at the institute.

In addition, researchers frequently join forces with other university partners, as well as others in HP Labs and elsewhere in HP.

"Many people are afraid of collaboration. I believe that collaboration doesn’t diminish credit -- it doubles it," he says. "There’s no better way of doing research than to collaborate with other groups. No one has a patent on all the great ideas."

Nonetheless, the Israel group has contributed its share.


Recent achievements
Among recent achievements from the Israel lab: a demosaicing algorithm incorporated into HP's newest camera, the Photosmart R707.

The Robust Demosaicing algorithm, which gives pictures sharp, high-resolution detail and suppresses noise, was invented by a team that included Renato Keshet (HP Labs Israel employee number three, with seven granted patents and 11 pending patent applications). It is a major enhancement over previous HP cameras.

Other recent contributions to HP products include:

Robust denoising and sharpening for digital cameras, which minimizes artifacts and preserves sharp edges in images. This was developed by Keshet, Doron Shaked (HP Labs Israel employee number two, with 11 granted patents) and Ron Maurer (18 pending patent applications).

Adaptive lighting. Keshet and Shaked were part of a team that developed this technology, which balances dark and bright areas in a photo while maintaining the overall contrast.

Enhancements to HP's third printing technology, the Indigo digital printing presses, to measure and improve print quality. These include screen designs that enhance image quality, a system for automatic image enhancement and tools to improve color registration and to automatically measure and eliminate "banding" artifacts.

Denoising for improved image quality on new ultra-thin HP scanners that feature a see-through window (Keshet).

Technology for removing scratches and dust from scanned images (Ruth Bergmann, Hila Nachlieli, Gitit Ruckenstein and Pavel Kisilev).

Substantial modifications of Indigo's embedded Linux machine that turned an underperforming platform into one that surpassed all performance specifications (Carl Staelin, with seven granted patents and 15 pending applications).

Looks like HP Isreal are doing a lot with camera technology.
 

mosx

macrumors 65816
Mar 3, 2007
1,465
3
Its funny watching all of the Apple defenders come out

"USB 3 sucks! It has no advantage over Thunderbolt!"

It sure does have an advantage. You know what that is? The fact that USB 3.0 devices have already saturated the market and every non-Apple desktop PC either supports USB 3.0 or can support USB 3.0 with add-in cards.

Many PC notebooks have been shipping with USB 3.0 for months now, after having shipped with (and continuing to ship with) eSATA for years.

I don't understand why Apple doesn't just support established standards that already have multiple products in the market place. Whats the point of even putting Thunderbolt on a Mac when Apple doesn't support SATA3 HDDs, only SATA2, so even the fastest SSDs wouldn't even be able to fully take advantage of USB 3.0's bandwidth. Not that you can properly upgrade HDDs or SSDs in the new iMacs.

In reality, for Apple, just like miniDisplayPort, its all a gimmick. It's all about money. Being able to say you have something whether its useful or not and being able to sell expensive branded adapters.

Apple was the first company to adopt USB, drop the floppy disk drive, adopt the CD drive, and drop the CD/DVD drive.

Drop the CD/DVD drive? Yeah thats working out real well since blu-ray disc is still gaining market share, still increasing in sales, and still being adopted faster than DVD was at the same point in its life cycle.

DisplayPort hasn't even made it onto any non-Apple product? Are you kidding me? Here's a 20-page search result at Newegg.com that begs to differ with you

Other than daisy chaining displays, DisplayPort offers no benefits over HDMI and, in fact, has weaknesses compared to HDMI, especially HDMI 1.4, which is already been in widespread adoption in GPUs for well over a year now.

Thunderbolt is 2 months old. It's "only" on Apple hardware right now, because Apple is the first manufacturer to adopt it. How on Earth does a brand new technology that is only 2 months old get branded as a failure because it hasn't seen wide-spread adoption yet?

eSATA was available for years. Why didn't Apple ever support it? USB 3.0 has already taken over the market. Why not support it?

As for HP not adopting Thunderbolt... I think the company with the worst product reliability and customer satisfaction ratings in the industry has more important things to worry about than whether or not they adopt Thunderbolt right now. The last I checked, the only thing HP leads the industry in is the number of returned products at retail stores.

And yet, they still sell more computers in one quarter than Apple will in an entire year.

People seem to have let iOS success go to their heads. Even though the iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad are all widely successful, Macs are still only a very small niche product with very low single digit market share worldwide.
 

weckart

macrumors 603
Nov 7, 2004
5,835
3,514
We should all be well aware by now that one thing Apple is TERRIBLE at is setting industry standards.

Firewire was a fail and only ever existed on Macs and a very, very select number of desktops.

DisplayPort hasn't even made it onto any non-Apple product

Thunderbolt so far exists on a small selection of Apple hardware with no clear push or motivation to getting it adopted wider. Apple should be meeting with the Dell's and HP's of the world - they are the only people that have the volume and power to force the standard into the industry.

Apple simply sucks at getting new ports onto computers, period.

Quite a few notebooks carried Firewire, including those from Sony (the port was called iLink) and the HP I used at work. It really wasn't that rare to find one.

As for DP, Dell had a monitor out before Apple. HP, LG, Dell, Asus et al have monitors on the market with DP.

Your research sucks, full stop.
 

MacSlut

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2002
250
3
Bar
Here's what's missing from the article...

What's missing from the article is that Thunderbolt doesn't have native support built into Sandy Bridge. Therefore, few if any besides Apple, will support it this year. Doing so means adding controller chips. So it's an extra cost with no clear benefit until more devices go to retail.

When Ivy Bridge comes out early next year with built in support for Thunderbolt, vendors will be all over it.

The three things to remember about Thunderbolt:

1) As one port to rule them all, it's superior on a technical level than any other option.

2) Being compatible across various protocols like USB 3, it's not competitive, but rather complimentary.

3) This is happening. There's no choice here. There's no "but port ___ does what I need". This is the standard being released by Intel and Apple. While vendors like HP are sitting out the first year, they're fully aware that in 2012, they'll have the incentive of cost, simplicity, and customer demand to start transitioning to Thunderbolt.
 

MorphingDragon

macrumors 603
Mar 27, 2009
5,160
6
The World Inbetween
HDMI and DVI are the very same thing, it's just a different connector plug.

Not exactly. HDMI also does sound. The video part is electrically compatible with DVI though, but you can only get sound with an active adaptor that somehow hooks into your PC's sound or when the GPU provides the HDMI port with sound.
 
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weckart

macrumors 603
Nov 7, 2004
5,835
3,514
This is happening. There's no choice here. There's no "but port ___ does what I need". This is the standard being released by Intel and Apple.

Instead, there will be "Which $30 adapter do I need?", which is still offputting for some.
 
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