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HomePod mini and HomePod Can't Be Stereo Paired, But HomePod Home Theater Support Coming Soon for Apple TV 4K

Alan Wynn said:
Do you have more than two ears? If you are like most humans, you localize sound based on differences between how the audio is received in each ear. A pair of speakers with a good processing model can generate spatial audio (see the Dolby Atmos headphones as an example). It is certainly easier to do with more speakers in more locations (as one needs to do less work), but one can generate pretty amazing results with just two speaker positions.
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Before you get out over your skis here, realize that discerning the location of where a sound is coming from is also effected by the geometry of your head and ears. Time between arrival at one ear versus the other is only part of your brain's equation when processing sounds. How do you think you can tell the difference between a sound coming from 5 feet directly in front of you, 5 feet directly behind you, and 5 feet over your head? In all three cases that sound reaches both ears in about 0.004 seconds, but somehow you're still able to locate the origin. Since the HomePod cannot direct audio along the vertical axis, it's incapable of emulating height channels.

Look up info on binaural recordings for more on how humans process sound.
 
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Hopefully AppleTV4k support for spatial awareness and the HomePod will also work with AirPods Pro similar to watching on the iPhone, which I have to say is pretty great.
 
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Alan Wynn said:
While I do not think that it makes sense to do stereo pairs with different speakers, if one is using computational audio to characterize both the room and the other speakers, it would certainly be possible to build a model that would make up for much (some?, all? most?) of the differences. Just as one can generate spatial audio with only two speakers using computational audio, one could build other models that did other things.
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Excellent point! Perhaps somewhere between some and most.
 
citysnaps said:
Excellent point! Perhaps somewhere between some and most.
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Even if Apple did this, which I doubt, by doing this you’d basically be bringing your HomePod down to HomePod mini levels of audio performance, meaning someone will have paid $200 more for a speaker than they really should have.

The whole purpose of using matching stereo speakers (other than looks) is so that both speakers have the same frequency response curve. Pairing a HomePod with a mini and using a model the artificially “matches” the speakers would cause a couple things to happen. First the HomePod will lose a lot of the bass it would otherwise output because the mini will not be able to play as low of frequencies as the full size one. Second the HomePod mini will either have increased distortion to allow it to play at the same levels as a full size HomePod or the HomePod will have its volume artificially capped lower than it would by itself so that its volume isn’t louder than the mini it’s paired with.
 
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vipergts2207 said:
Even if Apple did this, which I doubt, by doing this you’d basically be bringing your HomePod down to HomePod mini levels of audio performance, meaning someone will have paid $200 more for a speaker than they really should have.

The whole purpose of using matching stereo speakers (other than looks) is so that both speakers have the same frequency response curve. Pairing a HomePod with a mini and using a model the artificially “matches” the speakers would cause a couple things to happen. First the HomePod will lose a lot of the bass it would otherwise output because the mini will not be able to play as low of frequencies as the full size one. Second the HomePod mini will either have increased distortion to allow it to play at the same levels as a full size HomePod or the HomePod will have its volume artificially capped lower than it would by itself so that its volume isn’t louder than the mini it’s paired with.
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Huh? The comment and my response was more of a technical what-if speculative thought experiment as to what could be done through signal processing.

Clearly Apple is not going to do that.
 
klunernet said:
this is likely related to your WiFi, not AirPlay itself. I have not noticed any latency here. (But my WiFi and network setup is decidedly not “consumer”)
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what is your wifi setup? I keep hearing about those "enterprise" wifi nodes from Aruba and Ruckus but I have yet to have someone explain to me how are they better than my average "consumer" router given their 10x price? Other than it can handle hundreds/thousands of clients at one time?
 
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toke lahti said:
How does ATV detect available speakers?
Does it ask AV receiver, how many speakers are used?
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It gets the info about the TV speakers via HDMI, and the HomePods are discovered via the network using the AirPlay protocol. It may also be able to pick up speakers via A2DP, but haven't tried that yet.
 
vipergts2207 said:
Before you get out over your skis here, realize that discerning the location of where a sound is coming from is also effected by the geometry of your head and ears.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I realized I missed the Smiley after the two ear question.


Time between arrival at one ear versus the other is only part of your brain's equation when processing sounds.
Click to expand...

It is about time, pitch and phase shift, and other things. A Head Related Transfer Function is created to model that.

How do you think you can tell the difference between a sound coming from 5 feet directly in front of you, 5 feet directly behind you, and 5 feet over your head? In all three cases that sound reaches both ears in about 0.004 seconds, but somehow you're still able to locate the origin. Since the HomePod cannot direct audio along the vertical axis, it's incapable of emulating height channels.
Click to expand...

Have you heard any of the TVs and sound bars that do visualized Atmos? They do quite a good job emulating height, without directly knowing where in the room you are. If given a good spacial position and (eventually) a personal HRTF for you, they should be able to do a pretty good job.

Look up info on binaural recordings for more on how humans process sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I have been working with 3D audio since the 80's starting with the guys at Northwestern University, so I am pretty familiar with how it works. :)
 
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This very feature was highly speculated prior to the HomePod launch. Imagine the two years of continued disappointment trying to make them work as reliable Apple TV speakers since.
 
Am I the only one that thinks the biggest problem with these is that Apple hasn’t made the “leap” to allowing HomePod to replace a home theater system?

Ignore the lag issue. AppleTV can buffer accordingly. Great for movies and TV. I recognize games will not be an option. Last thing I need is another dedicated device.

No need for a separate amplifier or decoder. It would simplify things greatly.
 
Alan Wynn said:
Sorry, I realized I missed the Smiley after the two ear question.




It is about time, pitch and phase shift, and other things. A Head Related Transfer Function is created to model that.



Have you heard any of the TVs and sound bars that do visualized Atmos? They do quite a good job emulating height, without directly knowing where in the room you are. If given a good spacial position and (eventually) a personal HRTF for you, they should be able to do a pretty good job.



Thanks, I have been working with 3D audio since the 80's starting with the guys at Northwestern University, so I am pretty familiar with how it works. :)
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I suspect we have different standards for ‘quite a good job’. At the end of that day what you’re talking about is trying to emulate height channels with speakers that don’t have the ability to direct sound vertically and that don’t even have the benefit of knowing where a person is sitting. GIGO principals portend that this is not a recipe for a good result. And add more than one viewer to the equation and the ability to emulate height channels only deteriorates further. Even dedicated Atmos speakers that reflect sound directly off the ceiling to the listener only do an ok job.
 
vipergts2207 said:
Even if Apple did this, which I doubt, by doing this you’d basically be bringing your HomePod down to HomePod mini levels of audio performance, meaning someone will have paid $200 more for a speaker than they really should have.
Click to expand...

I agree that it is unlikely (and not a good plan) for them to do it with a single HomePod. While it is also unlikely, there could be some interesting applications for an environment where there were two HomePods and one or more HomePod minis.

The whole purpose of using matching stereo speakers (other than looks) is so that both speakers have the same frequency response curve.
Click to expand...

In a non-computational audio world that is completely the case. This makes it easy to model the system and make the processing much easier.

Pairing a HomePod with a mini and using a model the artificially “matches” the speakers would cause a couple things to happen. First the HomePod will lose a lot of the bass it would otherwise output because the mini will not be able to play as low of frequencies as the full size one.
Click to expand...

Likely, but without a lot more knowledge of the characteristics and power of both, I would not say for sure what would happen.

Second the HomePod mini will either have increased distortion to allow it to play at the same levels as a full size HomePod or the HomePod will have its volume artificially capped lower than it would by itself so that its volume isn’t louder than the mini it’s paired with.
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Again, likely but not guaranteed. It might use the mini for reinforcement of particular frequencies, or something else. It might not improve stereo imaging, but might improve some other aspect of performance.

I do agree it is not likely, as it would be a lot of work to enable it and I have no idea if there could even be a gain (for a single HomePod paired with a single HomePod mini).
 
Pimmp said:
"To get the 5.1, 7.1 surround, and Dolby Atmos, you need to pair one or two HomePod speakers to the Apple TV. This feature requires the spatial sound support of Homepod"

Surround or Atmos, Did not know this at all. I have two paired homepods to my ATV4k
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My guess is that will work like Spatial Audio on AirPods Pro, with ATV 4K position referred as the center point of dialogue.

Weird because so far I couldn't really enjoy Spatial Audio unless I move my head (or my phone/iPad) around. With static position, it's going to sound like a central speaker in a true-surround home theater.
 
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Really excited to try the spatial audio on my single homepod. I have a big theater setup that I miss when on holiday. The Homepod is my "portable soundbar". So hoping this will improve things even further.

Of course with Covid times won't be in an airbnb anytime soon!
 
How was this supposedly a "key question". You do not pair two sonically different speakers to create a stereo pair. No matter how fancy your audio processing is.
 
NervousFish2 said:
This is all the confirmation I need. I was holding back on getting a second HomePod. Next time I see one below $250, its mine...
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lol your loss, I think its worth every penny even for the original price and I am glad I get them when they released
btw, I am updating those HomePods on beta now to enjoy the home theatre feature... and you just keep.... waiting ......
 
I have airport express 2 with some iPod hifi in my room and it’s super cool to have them played together, only one thing doesn’t work is my lg oled cx and my iPhone can’t airplay video and sound simultaneously :-(

i cannot send sound from my tv to airplay2 speaker, it’s vidéo or audio but not both , weird and sad since it would create a cool multi speaker sound for movies.
Can Apple TV send sound to my airport express speakers and display video in the same time?

when airplay from my iPhone I have video then when I choose the speakers on my phone the video turns into a picture of the movie lol.
 
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Of course a HomePod mini and original can’t be paired. That would be ridiculous. What I’m keen to know is two minis paired sound better in a room than one larger Homepod. I suspect the larger one will have more grunt but the stereo of the two may trump that for a better experience.
 
Can a pair of HomePod minis be used a stereo speaker setup for a Mac? Would the pair connect to the Mac via Bluetooth or AirPlay?
 
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