Hope this is wrong... (no GPS)

[G4R2]

Sorry, but you are wrong on this. aGPS uses a combination of GPS Satellites and an "assistance server" to cope with the situation where there is a low signal reception from the satellite and delays in obtaining a GPS signal lock. Assisted GPS is effectively an enhancement of "standard" GPS, and most definitely does use GPS satellite connectivity. Of course, if you have no internet / phone connectivity the maps application won't be able to download any information about your current location, so it's a moot point about using it with no phone signal...

You're right- It does GPS satellite connectivity- But you're wrong if you think that connectivity occurs on the phone. It occurs on the cell phone tower, which is why aGPS phones don't have real satellite GPS like Garmin or car systems.

Here's a good summary of the differences between GPS and aGPS:


"Very often cellular network towers have GPS receivers (or a base station nearby) and those receivers are constantly pulling down satellite information and computing the data. This data is then passed on to the cellular phone (when requested) and acts like a “cheat” since the relevant satellites to your location are already identified and all that GPS computations is handled by 3rd party computers."

GPS vs. aGPS

 

[Phil A.]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone 16GB: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; iPhone OS 2_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5A308 Safari/525.20)

Sorry, but you are wrong on this. aGPS uses a combination of GPS Satellites and an "assistance server" to cope with the situation where there is a low signal reception from the satellite and delays in obtaining a GPS signal lock. Assisted GPS is effectively an enhancement of "standard" GPS, and most definitely does use GPS satellite connectivity. Of course, if you have no internet / phone connectivity the maps application won't be able to download any information about your current location, so it's a moot point about using it with no phone signal...

You're right- It does GPS satellite connectivity- But you're wrong if you think that connectivity occurs on the phone. It occurs on the cell phone tower, which is why aGPS phones don't have real satellite GPS like Garmin or car systems.

Here's a good summary of the differences between GPS and aGPS:


"Very often cellular network towers have GPS receivers (or a base station nearby) and those receivers are constantly pulling down satellite information and computing the data. This data is then passed on to the cellular phone (when requested) and acts like a “cheat” since the relevant satellites to your location are already identified and all that GPS computations is handled by 3rd party computers."

GPS vs. aGPS

if you look at the diagram below the text you quoted in the article, there is definite connectivity to GPS satellites from the phone, and just below that is the following text:

Line of sight to three satellites is not required as in regular GPS technology, but two satellites must be visible for a precise AGPS fix.

 

[gloss]

You're right- It does GPS satellite connectivity- But you're wrong if you think that connectivity occurs on the phone. It occurs on the cell phone tower, which is why aGPS phones don't have real satellite GPS like Garmin or car systems.

Here's a good summary of the differences between GPS and aGPS:


"Very often cellular network towers have GPS receivers (or a base station nearby) and those receivers are constantly pulling down satellite information and computing the data. This data is then passed on to the cellular phone (when requested) and acts like a “cheat” since the relevant satellites to your location are already identified and all that GPS computations is handled by 3rd party computers."

GPS vs. aGPS

You're not quoting the article correctly. There are several examples in there of aGPS where both the phone AND the towers are connected, and triangulation is only used to provide the phone with a rough location while the phone's GPS chip is attaining a satellite lock.

from the same article:

 

[G4R2]

You're not quoting the article correctly. There are several examples in there of aGPS where both the phone AND the towers are connected, and triangulation is only used to provide the phone with a rough location while the phone's GPS chip is attaining a satellite lock.

from the same article:

That's one implementation which is what the Nokia N95 uses. The N95 has both traditional GPS as well as aGPS to compensate for the problems that traditional GPS had with locking on to a satellite signal indoors. Most cell phones don't have a separate GPS receiver which would probably require a separate antennae. They use the cell towers, which have the GPS information, to get their positions, not the satellites.

 

[gloss]

That's one implementation which is what the Nokia N95 uses. The N95 has both traditional GPS as well as aGPS to compensate for the problems that traditional GPS had with locking on to a satellite signal indoors. Most cell phones don't have a separate GPS receiver which would probably require a separate antennae. They use the cell towers, which have the GPS information, to get their positions, not the satellites.

Sorry, but if you read what they actually say in the aGPS explanation, in no case is there a device that does NOT have a GPS chip in it, but instead relies entirely on tower triangulation.

Tower triangulation ≠ aGPS

aGPS = GPS + tower triangulation

 

[t0mat0]

Forget A-GPS, embrace e-GPS info on eGPS
kDarling kindly links to here:
"Combined GPS/cellular data creates universal positioning data
eGPS provides a superset of the A-GPS aiding data to deliver fast and reliable positioning - anywhere, anytime - without necessitating upgrades to existing GSM/WCDMA network infrastructure.

A-GPS (Assisted GPS) techniques are a popular method for reducing GPS's limitations when implemented on handsets. A network-located server provides Ephemeris and Almanac data to shorten time to fix. However, A-GPS cannot help a handset to sense position when GPS signals are unavailable, and in these cases sometimes only the cell ID can be provided (which might mean an 'accuracy' of kilometres).
eGPS extends the aiding concept by supplementing Ephemeris and Almanac information with a database of GSM/WCDMA basestation locations and a timing model of the network, in order to generate fine time and frequency aiding to speed GPS fixes. It also provides positional information based on cellular network information alone, providing a fallback position accuracy of some 100m (CSR's real-world trials are currently demonstrating around 60m).

Satellite time information is maintained accurately and autonomously within the handset, which has the practical benefit of speeding time to fix in the poor GPS environments that most handsets operate in. This typically accelerates fix times by as much as three times compared with A-GPS. Satellite time calibration can even be maintained autonomously by the handset alone for hours following a fix - allowing systems to operate with or without a network-located server - ensuring that users can sense position when roaming.

The impact on power consumption is almost negligible, as the cellular information is continuously derived via the handset's cellular modem, allowing the GPS subsystem to be powered up only when an accurate position fix is required. A typical eGPS push-to-fix will be available in less than 4 seconds, accurate to within 10m, and require the equivalent power of less than 1 second of handset talk time"

Edit: CSR say the chips are forecast for 2009, so no joy here for Apple for a couple of months.

 

[G4R2]

Sorry, but if you read what they actually say in the aGPS explanation, in no case is there a device that does NOT have a GPS chip in it, but instead relies entirely on tower triangulation.

Tower triangulation ≠ aGPS

aGPS = GPS + tower triangulation

I could be wrong then. Last time I looked into this was when the Motorola Q first came out and that was the understanding I had of it back then. I actually hope I'm wrong and that the GPS is in fact standalone considering ATT's coverage problems.

 

[gloss]

I could be wrong then. Last time I looked into this was when the Motorola Q first came out and that was the understanding I had of it back then. I actually hope I'm wrong and that the GPS is in fact standalone considering ATT's coverage problems.

I'm with you there.

 

[marksman]

I hope that people change their views and go into WWDC thinking there will be nothing more than 3G.

This is what will happen. If you're not expecting GPS or a better camera, you won't be disappointed when you don't get it.

I just want 3g and 32 gigs of ram. Anything else is gravy.

 

[xhambonex]

thats a lot of ram, I wouldn't mind a 32gb flashdrive though, but I'm not sure about that being a reality. I'm like Tallest Skil, expect nothing more than the original iphone design and 3g, then I can get excited about anything else.

 

[alFR]

If it's as good as the linked article suggests, eGPS would be awesome - accurate positioning with negligible battery hit. The only thing is, there's no mention of drivers for a CSR GPS/Bluetooth chip in Engadget's breakdown of the 3G iPhone firmware - but then again there's no mention of a Bluetooth chip in the breakdown at all, but we know it'll be there in some form. Fingers crossed for the eGPS then - CSR do list Apple as a customer.

 

[MBHockey]

thats a lot of ram, I wouldn't mind a 32gb flashdrive though, but I'm not sure about that being a reality. I'm like Tallest Skil, expect nothing more than the original iphone design and 3g, then I can get excited about anything else.

 

[Telp]

I'm like Tallest Skil, expect nothing more than the original iphone design and 3g, then I can get excited about anything else.

That works in theory. Then again, so does communism. I'm trying the same thing, but i already know I'll be dissapointed if the only new thing is 3G.

 

[aforty]

I really hope it'll have GPS. I've been salivating over having GPS with Google Maps and then the inevitable directions application available for download.

It needs GPS built in!

 

[NewMacGirl]

What is the resolution in metres of GPS??1m or 10?

I'm really hoping for GPS

 

[Saladinos]

http://www.iphoneatlas.com/2008/04/21/apple-readies-iphone-for-true-gps-support/

They've found the NMEA protocol in firmware 2.0. That means real GPS. No other explanation. Literally none.

 

[gloss]

What is the resolution in metres of GPS??1m or 10?

I'm really hoping for GPS

Wikipedia states about 50 feet (worst case scenario) for civilian devices. I think about 15 feet is perhaps more typical.

 

[marcol]

What is the resolution in metres of GPS??1m or 10?

I'm really hoping for GPS

I have a TomTom GPS with a SiRFStar III chip (regarded as one of the better ones) and it seems to be accurate to within a meter or so. I'd be very happy if the iPhone had GPS that was as good.