How amazingly cheap are YOU?

[mpw]

<blah, blah, blah>

As for the rest of your argument, try to understand that the world is made up of different cultures. In the US, restaurants work because people tip. If you want to participate in a culture you play by its rules. If I ever come to Jersey, I'll read up and try to behave appropriately. Please do so when you come here.

Its not that I don't understand the math its the logic that doesn't work for me. You seem the accept a system that has trust at its centre but then say the likelyhood is that people will not trust each other. Yet continue to accept that system.

What if I open a TV store in your town and choose to pay my staff below minimum wage and put a sign in the window that say 'TVs from just $50, please tip the staff' would you then buy your TV from me save a couple of hundred $s and then tip the difference to the sales guy? (of course he should really split that tip with the guy in China who works for a $1 a day, but meh)

In an earlier post you expect people who wish to tip based on service to advise servers of this prior to sitting down for dinner, should the server also be expected to advise the patrons of their wages and what they've received in tips so far this week.?

In this trust system you love so much I assume that no server who receives substantial tips, either through luck or hard work, would ever not declare this on their tax returns?

I often do tip because I've wanted to my problem is the expectation that I should, and comments from people like you saying I'm a thief if I don't tip

If you ever do come to Jersey our system is quite simple, just tip when you want to. Nobody expects you to tip and nobody's going to get pissy if you don't. We reasonable people who respect each other(for the most part) and pay accordingly.

Its attitudes like yours that are making me go off Americans, which is a shame 'cause I've often fought your corner when people have berated you, now I see more and more how screwed up your nation is, and why.

 

[miloblithe]

There's a line from the movie Deer Hunter:

"this is this."

This is not a restaurant in Jersey, or a TV store, or a hotel. This is restuarants in the US.

What I'm trying to do is help you understand the US system and what it's like to work as a waiter, a job you clearly appreciate the existence of if you eat in a restaurant.

Per your question: most waiters who receive tips in excess of what their restaurant estimates that they make for tax purposes do not report that income on their taxes. This is illegal.

My point was not that someone who doesn't tip should inquire about how much a waiter is or isn't making, but that by ordering from a waiter in the US, you are entering into a contract to tip them roughly 15%, adjusted downwards or upwards depending on the quality of service. To not tip them is essentially a breach of contract. If you are unwilling to enter that contract, you should tell them up front.

 

[Eric5h5]

In this trust system you love so much I assume that no server who receives substantial tips, either through luck or hard work, would ever not declare this on their tax returns?

Let me explain the Social Security system in the U.S.: it's based on your income. What you receive when you retire is based on how much you made when you were working. So if you don't report income now, you're basically screwing yourself out of some of your own retirement income later.

As far as the tips thing goes, consider that the price, sans tip, is below what it "should" be. If employers were able to do away with the system and just pay waitstaff a regular wage, prices would go up accordingly, and, in the process, the option of not paying for bad service would be forcibly removed. Is that really the best idea? The system isn't THAT screwed up. You just have to be mentally prepared to add about 15% to a restaurant bill, and then pay more or less depending on how the service was. If even Americans can generally handle that, surely other folk can....

--Eric

 

[mpw]

...by ordering from a waiter in the US, you are entering into a contract to tip them roughly 15%, adjusted downwards or upwards depending on the quality of service. To not tip them is essentially a breach of contract. If you are unwilling to enter that contract, you should tell them up front.

So now you're happy to accept a 'system' based on trust, but accept that people can't be trusted, your trust 'system' has contracts based on assumption of acceptance the details of which are arbitary, and you think its fair to call people dishonest theives who choose not to operate as you do.

Yeah I admit it your systems perfect.

 

[takao]

i tip too but i'm more a rounder (up not down ) but if the restaurants sells a product below costs then it's not my problem no matter how you turn it
after all we shouldn't be encouraging businesses to give less than the minimum wage

that aside it's interesting that in the US that prices don't have to include stuff like delivery/taxes

 

[Takumi]

To not tip them is essentially a breach of contract.

Show me that in the restraunt and hotels act (or the USA equavilant) and I'll obey it when I'm next in the USA

Takumi

 

[rdowns]

I would agree as well. I have absoultely no problem with tipping either. (Was this thread about tipping?? )

Tipping is basically just commission - and I am a huge fan of paying people based on commission. I've been on commission since I was 10 years old if you count mowing lawns and delivering papers. The sooner someone can learn that the better you are at your job the more you will get paid the better off you are. We moved our lower paid workers (claims department) to a commission based system. The results were outstanding. The slackers left, the cream rose to the top and make more money and customer service has improved considerably

Unfortunately more and more people appear to have a disease called "Entitled-itis". I pay everyone I can based on commission - and even if you don't think you are paid on commission try not showing up to work and making your boss money for two weeks and see what happens

BINGO!

I think every job(where feasible) should be commissioned based. I've been working on commission since I'm 17 (43 now) and I earn more than all but the president of my company but I could earn more than him if my division performs better.

As far as "Entitled-itis", I think that is one of the biggest problems facing us today. I see it in my employees who are younger (20s to mid 30s) whereas those 35 and older far less so and even non-existant. Just where did this sense of entitlement come from? A few of us at work have surmised it began in the generation raised with time-outs, everyone's a winner (you know, all Little Leaguers get a trophy), parents as friends instead of parents...OK, off my soapbox.

As an example, I had a sales rep complain in a meeting that his annual review was three weeks overdue (we don't give salary raises unless additional responsibilities are given). Before I could open my mouth, a senior rep said, we have a sales board that measures your daily performance, you get weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual statistics on where you stand within the group. I see your name near the bottom of these lists regularly; are you implying you should receive a raise?

Wish I could find more like her.

 

[jadekitty24]

This argument is still going? *shakes head sadly* Look, while a lot of people may not agree with the "way things are" here in the US it is what it is. Waitresses and waiters should get tips (if they earn it!) to offset their pay. I don't particularly agree with it, but if I have been served a good meal and the waitress was friendly and attentive I leave a tip accordingly. If you want to make this into a "government" issue to lay they blame one someone else (another trait people have been developing) then go ahead, but when you skimp out on a tip you are only hurting the waitress/waiter. You could go and make the argument that "well sometimes they make a killing". Um, yeah they EARN it. They kiss a lot of ass to get that. You could also make the argument that other jobs are hard as well. I'm sure those jobs pay minimum wage or better. Bottom line, it is what it is and I'm not going to punish someone deserving because I have issues with the system.

Back on topic, I find pounding your head against a wall to be much cheaper than sleeping pills when you're having trouble sleeping.

 

[miloblithe]

There's an interesting difference in this thread between people who are really frugal (who avoid spening excess money on things they don't need) and those who are cheap (who refuse to part with their money, other people be damned).

 

[mpw]

There's an interesting difference in this thread between people who are really frugal (who avoid spening excess money on things they don't need) and those who are cheap (who refuse to part with their money, other people be damned).

And then there're people like me who are neither frugal nor cheap.

 

[floriflee]

Back on topic, I find pounding your head against a wall to be much cheaper than sleeping pills when you're having trouble sleeping.

Here! Here! I find eating all your important documents is cheaper than buying a shredder.

 

[iBlue]

And then there're people like me who are neither frugal nor cheap.

yeah, a stubborn rebel.

 

[devilot]

Show me that in the restraunt and hotels act (or the USA equavilant) and I'll obey it when I'm next in the USA

One time, my friends and I received horrendous service (or rather, received no service) and so we paid our bill and left no tip... our server ran outside and chased us down screaming, "Tip! Tip! You left no tip!" and refused to leave us alone until we handed her some money.

 

[kretzy]

One time, my friends and I received horrendous service (or rather, received no service) and so we paid our bill and left no tax... our server ran outside and chased us down screaming, "Tip! Tip! You left no tip!" and refused to leave us alone until we handed her some money.

Wow, that sucks. I would have told her where to go if the level of service wasn't up to scratch.

 

[jeremy.king]

Wow, that sucks. I would have told her where to go if the level of service wasn't up to scratch.

I would have told her to learn to type and consider a career change.

I too don't feel obligated whatsoever to tip. I tip based on experience and level of service. This whole civic responsibility crap is just disturbing that so many people buy into it.

A) the government has TWO minimim wages...one for hourly employees, and another for hourly employees who (could) receive tips. I have never seen someone paid less than the minimum wage for tipped employees.

B) People who are tipped often circumvent the system by claiming far less in income than they really earned. When I worked at a restaurant, you would often see/hear a member of the wait staff brag about how they made $200 that night, while officially logging only $30 in tips in the payroll system.

C) Despite the claims that these people "need" these jobs, there are millions of alternatives to becoming a waiter/waitress and those include education, relocation, and choice...

What I really love is this "necessity" to tip a bartender who just fetched me a $3 beer from a fridge or poured it for me. I will usually only tip once every two or three trips...

Now that off my chest...I am trying to become cheap/frugal/smart After reading the Millionaire Next Door (MND) and listening to the Millionaire Mind, I am more aware of the spending habits of those self made millionaires. Some of them surprised me, and the rest are common sense really. I recommend these to everyone I talk to who thinks they can't retire comfortably. Luckily I have plenty of years ahead of me to prepare for retirement and now can make better choices when it comes to my finances.

In a nutshell. We shop at Walmart and Goodwill sometimes. We use coupons. We always have a list when shopping. We do go out, but again, go to places where we have a coupon. Once I learn to invest the money I save by simply using coupons, I will be on the long road to financial freedom. I pay people to change my oil. Why? Cause I can earn more money than it costs me in the time I get my oil change (from the M.N.D.). The only thing I need to work on is impulse buying and find a way to lower my commute time so I can be more productive.

 

[devilot]

C) Despite the claims that these people "need" these jobs, there are millions of alternatives to becoming a waiter/waitress and those include education, relocation, and choice...

And what if you're a recent immigrant with a family to support-- how do you find the time and money to go to school (tuition, textbooks, other supplies, registration, etc.) while making enough money to pay for food, shelter, clothing, medical/ health care, and transportation, all at the same time?

 

[jadekitty24]

C) Despite the claims that these people "need" these jobs, there are millions of alternatives to becoming a waiter/waitress and those include education, relocation, and choice...

That is a pretty ignorant remark. Not everyone has a situation conducive to get an education, or to relocate. Not everyone chooses their circumstances. That is THE CHEASIEST excuse for being CHEAP that I ever heard. Much better than "blame the government".

 

[kretzy]

What I really love is this "necessity" to tip a bartender who just fetched me a $3 beer from a fridge or poured it for me. I will usually only tip once every two or three trips...

Tip a bartender?!?!

Over my dead body!

 

[miloblithe]

Whether or not people need these jobs is besides the point, even though obviously they do. There are millions of service jobs in the US and they could not be replaced by sufficient secretarial jobs (or whatever you're suggesting). The specific people working these jobs can and does change, but the jobs will still remain.

The point is:

You want these jobs to exist!!! Otherwise you'd never go to restaurants.

Why the hell are you complaining about the fact that people work them and provide services that you want?

 

[nbs2]

Show me that in the restraunt and hotels act (or the USA equavilant) and I'll obey it when I'm next in the USA

Regarding the breach of K theory, that has been shot down in some places (like NY). I don't knwo if you remember the story of Humberto Taveras (I had to look up his name). He was not happy with the service provided to his group of nine and did not leave the "required" 18% tip. Charges were brought, and then dropped when the DA acknowledged that "customers cannot be forced to pay a tip." For major events, I don't mind the included service charge - it makes billing and estimates easier. But for a large group, I still think it's silly. IF they are concerned about check splitting, then the policy should be to inlcude it on split checks...

Anyhow, I have taken to getting takeout, because most of the time I find that service is poor at most restaurants these days. The waiters and waitresses have developed a sense of entiltement to 15%, and if they aren't feeling up to it they leave you with crappy service and expect a good tip.

Milo - you make a good point that we want service jobs to exist and then we don't give them a tip for a job well done. But, I've never had a waiter or waitress apologize for bad service (bad events, yes, I've seen apologies, but not bad service). I have never had a cab driver that is polite - heck, I've had them start to drive off before I even close the door. And even though I am in the service industry, I never get a tip for a job well done.

 

[Applespider]

I have refused to tip before (on a group of 6 where the service was 'compulsory') because our meals (set menu) arrived at such wildly varying times that two people had finished before the last person got theirs which was cold. Not to mention, drinks that hadn't arrived and long gaps between courses/clearing plates. The manager came over to insist and we pointed out why we weren't paying it and eventually he saw our side.

I'm on the side of paying the service staff a decent wage to do a good job. If they do a really good job, then we should tip them. I prefer tips that are distributed to kitchen staff too. But I don't tip people who serve me in stores and who might do equally as much for me in terms of advice, ordering me a product and arranging for delivery - so why is the restaurant trade different? Why can't they put the cost of their meals up by a couple of bucks and pay the staff a decent wage?

 

[nbs2]

At the risk of pulling this thread even further off course, and speaking of tipping and wages, the NYT had an article today about that. It is very hard to side with management on this one - but I don't see how customer should ever be blamed (although this seems like the kind of place where a $500 bill would be on the small side)....

 

[floyde]

Ok, here are a few less-controversial forms of cheapskatism that I suffer from:

• I take a 15-20min. walk to work everyday (plus a 30min. drive) because I refuse to pay $50 a month for parking fees.
• I only have one very worn pair of dress shoes, and I often have to use "similar" color socks (I'm too cheap to replace misplaced socks so I just make up new pairs ) because I only wear formal clothing at work, and I refuse to spend money on clothes that I hate.

And yet, I'll whimsically spend $3000 on a Mac or $2000 on a guitar

 

[jeremy.king]

That is a pretty ignorant remark. Not everyone has a situation conducive to get an education, or to relocate. Not everyone chooses their circumstances. That is THE CHEASIEST excuse for being CHEAP that I ever heard. Much better than "blame the government".

Did I ruffle a feather? Coming from someone whose sig says "Frack 'em all, I say™," I am surprised you jump to defend with a weak argument that people don't have a choice over their circumstance/situation. Its fine by me if they are "forced" to be a member of the wait staff. Just don't expect me to tip simply out of civic responsibility...I tip based on service as I said above. If service is not up to par, then neither will my tip...

Lets just agree that we have differing opinions....So I'll just leave it at that. The topic was being cheap, so lets get back on it.

 

[CorvusCamenarum]

One time, my friends and I received horrendous service (or rather, received no service) and so we paid our bill and left no tip... our server ran outside and chased us down screaming, "Tip! Tip! You left no tip!" and refused to leave us alone until we handed her some money.

Similar story: a buddy and I were taking lunch somewhere (one of those trendy contrived places). To make a long story short, the service was horrid, and to make it worse, our change (less than $5) was brought in two piles of dimes, while everyone around us was getting paper currency. I've heard that in some places they will do this in hopes of the customer just not wanting to bother with scooping up a pile of coins. We left a dime each.