And yet Steve was a big supporter of the New York Times where was alive. I hope the next product release they totally ignore the Times. Give any exclusive interviews to the Wall Street Journal, anyone but the Times.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
How Apple Minimizes its Corporate Tax Burden
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
And yet Steve was a big supporter of the New York Times where was alive. I hope the next product release they totally ignore the Times. Give any exclusive interviews to the Wall Street Journal, anyone but the Times.
Apple's shell game....
Tax games among global partners and players is extremely complicated. Legions of lawyers make billions of dollars on salaries and huge bonuses for making Copt. tax -grey.. Can there be more openess of the procress,absolutely..Will interest groups investigate, crack some knuckles, pull some chains..?? Most surely. Will they find something that turns people into criminals overnight ? You bet.
It would be my bet if you were looking for criminal intent, investigate congress itself. You'd have to double the lawyers in this country to put the other half on trial and all of congress. Then move down to lobbyist... You'll be there until the next century..
Tax games among global partners and players is extremely complicated. Legions of lawyers make billions of dollars on salaries and huge bonuses for making Copt. tax -grey.. Can there be more openess of the procress,absolutely..Will interest groups investigate, crack some knuckles, pull some chains..?? Most surely. Will they find something that turns people into criminals overnight ? You bet.
It would be my bet if you were looking for criminal intent, investigate congress itself. You'd have to double the lawyers in this country to put the other half on trial and all of congress. Then move down to lobbyist... You'll be there until the next century..
I'm sorry I couldn't stop laughing, the Sarbanes–Oxley Act just flew 100 feet over everyone's head. Most will have no clue what you're talking about. I on the other hand know exactly what you're talking about, and commend you for bringing up SOX on Macrumors. By the way, I completely agree with you. 😎
It's kinda hard for politicians to change the laws when someone has enough money to ensure that they don't. I am not blaming apple btw for going through the loopholes, I am blaming the system that allows them to do so, which as the uk now is going through a double deep recession it's very apparent that it's not sustainable anymore. Mega rich corporations cannot evade taxation, or pay the absolute minimum worldwide via cracks in the system because this affects local economies. Their employees can't evade taxation, why should they? And your problem is with the angle of the story instead?
Apple clearly wouldn't be any less well off, wouldn't have less for r&d, wouldn't need to price anything up, wouldn't hire more or less people and they wouldn't cost any economy for reinvesting less money in it, if they paid 30% tax instead of 10%. They are just sitting on a pile of cash that could feed Africa for a few years that's not creating more jobs and that's not bringing anything back to the economy at the moment, their future investment capital isnt going to be hit with slightly more taxation.
Like you said you pay more than apple does but not more than you have to, why should apple then, or any such global corporation not have to pay more? I for once am making a note to not buy from the iTunes store anymore, they want me to buy their digital products they better be selling them from the uk and getting taxed by the same system that's going to be putting money back to the nhs say. They want much less taxation from Luxembourg, they can sell to its inhabitants, all 500 of them.
They might not be able to pay the dixons guy to run the store 60 mil on the first week at his job, he might have to be satisfied with 40 mil maybe. On the contrary if they would pay proper local taxes in Europe as well as in America or anywhere they do business the local communities would benefit greatly. That would have to go via local government, which might be troubling for some to hear, but that's a lesser of two evils.
Yeah, there you go, Apple pays 9% on billions of dollars, there over taxed, who are you? Mitt Romenys son Tag? Just like him, make 20mil a year and pays 12% tax, thats truly laughable and he has the nerve to say not a penny more. Somebody quick, get these guys a tax break otherwise they might dissappear off to china, good riddance. Thats the reason why this country is in the can, greedy rich people who whine, kick and scream how they're so over taxed, yet fail to mention the upper tax bracket is still stuck in the 1960's, poor rich people they got it so tough. And no one mentions 40% of corporations pay zero tax at all. But hey they create jobs I think, maybe, when you give them more reasons to cheat the country.
I won't argue with the accuracy of most of that. On high margin items, they may have a price target. If they can afford to maintain it, they do so. It depends what a company believes will make them the most money, meaning the price can go up, but that doesn't always happen. They're also not always afraid of pricing changes. The newest ipad may cost more to build than the old one did at time of launch. The price remained the same. When they switched to the unibody design on laptops, the price increased somewhat. It's not a consistent thing. They make that call based on what they believe will yield the highest return. You're obviously quite educated on the subject, so you know that per unit margin is not the only factor in determining retail price points.
By the way, if it was an article on Google, the general attitude of the thread would be completely different.
This was not sold to us as a corrupt tax code
You just see that it is. This transition to the "internet economy" was sold to us with a bunch of "free trade" agreements that were going to scare up SO MUCH business for the United States!
Well, not so much for the United States, but for the corporate elites. Not only are their corporations people, but they can exist on all continents at all times as a supranational power that lives forever. And retains the right to its intellectual property in perpetuity, as the Mouse belongs to Disney, and no-one can use the likeness of the Mouse ever. 75 years later? The perfect metaphor for Disney? The rumored fact that Walt is preserved on ice for a time when medical science will allow him to be revived. We are the mummified remains of the patron saint of "When You Wish Upon a Star".
But this is the underlying change in the last 30 years that has surrendered our country, not to an overbearing government, but to the enormous powers of the modern, multinational supreme being: corporations.
Now, what I think happened here is that Apple was actually late to this game. They had had their own manufacturing not too far back, Jobs's first time through. In looking how to build a successful organization in the late '90s, they looked at the real-life productive capacity of China and Asia generally, and lowering their prices -- they have, you know? -- they have lowered their taxes with a lot of fancy but not illegal dodges. They use the Chinese factories incredibly efficiently. DC, in the late '90s, was telling them to go ahead and go for it. The thing none of them, GOP or Clinton, told us about was losing the capacity to manufacture advance tech, and giving to a communist country a far better productive infrastructure than ours, was not a great idea. Our "change" to a "service economy", and a place where even the hamburger-flippers would be educated and the best damn flippers in the world, and where the highest goal of mankind was to be an Investment Banker---
That's what's in trouble. This is not really about Apple. This is about the USA's difficult years of adjustment.
Want to force an end to this? Pass laws to restrict what an American corp can do to evade taxes. If you do any business at all with the US, you pay X amount of tax, or you lose the ability to reimport to the big market here. Oh. That's a tariff. Why yes, I think it is.
God bless Alexander Hamilton.
You just see that it is. This transition to the "internet economy" was sold to us with a bunch of "free trade" agreements that were going to scare up SO MUCH business for the United States!
Well, not so much for the United States, but for the corporate elites. Not only are their corporations people, but they can exist on all continents at all times as a supranational power that lives forever. And retains the right to its intellectual property in perpetuity, as the Mouse belongs to Disney, and no-one can use the likeness of the Mouse ever. 75 years later? The perfect metaphor for Disney? The rumored fact that Walt is preserved on ice for a time when medical science will allow him to be revived. We are the mummified remains of the patron saint of "When You Wish Upon a Star".
But this is the underlying change in the last 30 years that has surrendered our country, not to an overbearing government, but to the enormous powers of the modern, multinational supreme being: corporations.
Now, what I think happened here is that Apple was actually late to this game. They had had their own manufacturing not too far back, Jobs's first time through. In looking how to build a successful organization in the late '90s, they looked at the real-life productive capacity of China and Asia generally, and lowering their prices -- they have, you know? -- they have lowered their taxes with a lot of fancy but not illegal dodges. They use the Chinese factories incredibly efficiently. DC, in the late '90s, was telling them to go ahead and go for it. The thing none of them, GOP or Clinton, told us about was losing the capacity to manufacture advance tech, and giving to a communist country a far better productive infrastructure than ours, was not a great idea. Our "change" to a "service economy", and a place where even the hamburger-flippers would be educated and the best damn flippers in the world, and where the highest goal of mankind was to be an Investment Banker---
That's what's in trouble. This is not really about Apple. This is about the USA's difficult years of adjustment.
Want to force an end to this? Pass laws to restrict what an American corp can do to evade taxes. If you do any business at all with the US, you pay X amount of tax, or you lose the ability to reimport to the big market here. Oh. That's a tariff. Why yes, I think it is.
God bless Alexander Hamilton.
This article isn't about how other companies "Minimizes" their taxes, it's about how Apple does.
The article explains how Apple finds loopholes to avoid paying taxes.
Yes, there is nothing illegal about it. Yes, perhaps if you are a shareholder, you'd go over the top and sue Apple for not screwing every last cent out of their business procedures.
But is it "right"?
Sorry - I am also one of those silly people who believe that Apple (especially, as the market leader) should offer warranties greater than 12 months on their goods, without increasing the price.
Yes, governments worldwide do crappy jobs at spending money. Just look at how much the US govt has spent on its Great Oil Grab in the middle east over the past decade.
But by finding ways around paying legitimate taxes, it burdens everyone else.
The article explains how Apple finds loopholes to avoid paying taxes.
Yes, there is nothing illegal about it. Yes, perhaps if you are a shareholder, you'd go over the top and sue Apple for not screwing every last cent out of their business procedures.
But is it "right"?
Sorry - I am also one of those silly people who believe that Apple (especially, as the market leader) should offer warranties greater than 12 months on their goods, without increasing the price.
Yes, governments worldwide do crappy jobs at spending money. Just look at how much the US govt has spent on its Great Oil Grab in the middle east over the past decade.
But by finding ways around paying legitimate taxes, it burdens everyone else.
He agreed with people who he shouldn't have agreed with as a businessman. He liked president Obama and appeared to be a supporter, but he was openly critical of the President's treatment of business. The New York Times is liberal banter, and Steve Jobs supported it as a liberal business person.
Unfortunately ethics is something only most people talk about, not practice. The U.S. does get rewarded however with the cheapest product prices from Apple!
1. Warranty coverage is not free to consumers, it's calculated in the price of the good sold. You want extended coverage, pay for it. If Apple, or any company, was forced to offer a longer warranty, the price of the item would go up. Some of us prefer to "self insure," because the odds of something going wrong are ,statistically, slim, and we'd rather take our chance and pay a lower price.
2. You ask "is it right?" Why is it wrong? These tax loopholes were put into place by elected members of congress. If you don't like the loopholes blame them for the crazy tax code. (The U.S. has the highest corporate tax in the world. Its no mystery companies do what they can to avoid them). It's Apple's duty to its shareholders to not pay more taxes then they are legally required. Taxes are not charity.
very interesting how many people disagree with Apple doing this sort of business practice but when it comes to their own personal taxes they will do anything to avoid paying 1 penny. 🙄
Yeah, they need to make the tax system more fair. I don't blame companies or the wealthy for finding loopholes because if they paid full, they'd lose an insane amount of their earnings.
Just make the tax tiers a bit less steep, and get rid of the loopholes. That way, everything would be the same except that the honest ones would not be taken advantage of.
----------
Well yeah, if someone sees someone else paying high taxes (or fines) to the government, they know that it benefits them eventually. It's selfish.
17%. If you make a million, I want $170,000. You make $1, I want $0.17. That is fair
This point had been made several times in this thread, but seems to be lost on those who have found something else to get mad at Apple about!
I'm sure all the people here upset at Apple, volunteer to pay extra taxes even when they don't need to by law, right? 🙄
It's funny the lengths people will go to make a company look bad when every company and themselves in their own personal life, do the exact same thing. But yeah, this is an ethics argument...:|
Focus on every company. If Apple paid full taxes, they'd be indirectly paying for other companies that avoid the taxes. Apple would be taken advantage of.
Since everyone is doing it, Apple should. It's like music piracy: if everyone (most people) stopped pirating, I would stop downloading songs from YouTube. Currently, if I actually pay for a song, I am being taken advantage of by a lot of people. However, I still pay for Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, etc of course.
That about sums it up...I agree completely. It's amusing to see the number of Apple apologists defending Apple and criticizing the government for instituting "corrupt" laws. Do you people really think the government purposefully put in loop holes so they could get screwed out of billions of dollars in income?!?! The loopholes were found and exploited by opportunists like Apple...it's as simple as that.
Also... imagine the fury if a similar story were released claiming Google did the same....
Last edited by a moderator:
People want Apple to pay more taxes because it's not them. I want all companies to stop cheating the tax system (and for the taxes to be lowered so they aren't ripped off), but if all of the companies are already cheating, why should Apple not?
Oh, and if a company pays full taxes (or at least pretends to) then advertises it to get more customers, I don't approve of that sort of thing. Same with charities.
Have you tried to reduce your personal taxes from the nominal 30% to below 10%? It never happens. You may roll your eyes as much as you want but the fact is corporations are ripping the working folks in this country. It's that simply. And when we say "corporations" we obviously mean rich investors. Unless you are in the 1% of the income bracket you are being ripped too, you are just brainwashed not to notice it.
All companies use the loopholes. I doubt Apple even discovered them. Good for Apple AND Google if they do this! The system is set up to heavily penalize the honest. If just a few companies stop doing it, they'll die, so all of them have to stop.
----------
The rich investors pay WAAAAAAAY more money in taxes (percentage-wise) than the working people and do not burden healthcare or anything. They aren't ripping anyone off but each other.
This link was already posted by someone else: http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/20...illion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html
Well, well Google does the same thing too! The loopholes are exploited by Google too, simple as that! It just doesn't sound as cool when it's not Apple doing it, right?
Again, every company does this. Only someone who is extremely naive would think that a company wouldn't do this because "it's not right". Gimme a break, and step into the real world...
Hate the game, not the player.
This is silly in that it singles out Apple as an example because .. well because that sells links.
Didn't GE recently receive a tax refund worth $Bns? And that despite earning $Bns in profits that year? Although in retrospect it's probably just another headline grabber, copies seller, link baiter...
This is silly in that it singles out Apple as an example because .. well because that sells links.
Didn't GE recently receive a tax refund worth $Bns? And that despite earning $Bns in profits that year? Although in retrospect it's probably just another headline grabber, copies seller, link baiter...
Please read the ruling (I have) and then get back to me. If I need disingenuous talking points, there are plenty of political websites where I can find them.
Apple wouldn't be taken advantage of, they'd be paying what they should be paying, that kind of mentality is why Greece is where they are today.
And see the loser mentality seeps through again, if you pay for a song your getting what you paid for. Yet you seem to think your entitled to it for free because you currently have the internet. Please go to a gas station or grocery store and grab what you feel entitled to the when the owner asks you to pay for it, tell him your being taken advantage of and you will not pay for it, but you will be leaving with what you took, see how that works out for you. Again this mindset is why Greece is in shambles, doctors making 1+mil a year and paying tax as if they make 12,000. Then everone has a stupid look on there face when they cant seem to figure why the country has negative zero money. Its self-inflicted stupidity.