How could Apple revolutionize the MacBook Pro?

[PDFierro]

Wow. You guys are totally off the mark here. What makes you all think Apple will still be producing "laptops"? (or whatever hybrid you want to call them). OSX comprises only 15% of their revenue right now and that market share is dwindling (for everyone actually).

Apple has discontinued their polycarbonate macbook and the MBP17. The MacBucket Pro is an enigma and I wonder if it is just someone's pet project given approval when the stock price was still high. I think it will be short-lived and die in 4 years. The iMac soon following the same path.

I do believe the writing is on the wall and the question you should be asking is what is the evolution of the iPad, ARM processors and iOS.

I think we are a long way from the day Apple stops caring about the Mac. Some of us actually need to get work done. Mavericks shows that Apple will still be investing in the Mac.

We need the opposite of devices meant for consumption.

 

[dusk007]

The Mac Pro is certainly not built to make money but for the brand. Its main task is to keep people seeing Apple as a company that makes tools for professionals and not just toys (iphone, ipad) for the average joe with enough money. Otherwise they would have killed the Mac Pro line long ago.
It is the same reason car companies have a foot (mostly the name really) in formula 1.


Touch notebooks are nonsense. I agree if you do nothing else but add a touch layer to the screen. The Lenovo Yoga 13" though is a bestseller from what I read. People love that thing. Many people don't like to have multiple device for everything and jump on any chance to consolidate. (I am one btw). A decent hinge that transforms a notebook into a nice big tablet would be great for when hanging in a hammock. Notebook with a Touchpad is great for sitting on a desk.

The only things that need to be sorted out is a decent hinge that can handle some abuse and doesn't completely change the setup of the notebook like many from Sony & Co. The Lenovo is the best so far even with the keyboard on the bottom, I still prefer it over those odd ones that leave no touchpad or palm rest.
The second thing is software. Software is actually not that big of a problem, because in all likelyhood you don't use every function in touch mode. Mostly just watching videos, reading pdfs and browsing. So all you need is the ipad browser, youtube app, a video player with a touch overlay and that is pretty much it. You don't need a touch photoshop or Dreamweaver. You don't need Word or Numbers in touch.
For a company that makes as much as Apple it would be a walk in the park to add enough functionality for hammock/kitchen-table touch mode.

 

[Hustler1337]

Wow. You guys are totally off the mark here. What makes you all think Apple will still be producing "laptops"? (or whatever hybrid you want to call them). OSX comprises only 15% of their revenue right now and that market share is dwindling (for everyone actually).

Apple has discontinued their polycarbonate macbook and the MBP17. The MacBucket Pro is an enigma and I wonder if it is just someone's pet project given approval when the stock price was still high. I think it will be short-lived and die in 4 years. The iMac soon following the same path.

I do believe the writing is on the wall and the question you should be asking is what is the evolution of the iPad, ARM processors and iOS.

You've got to be kidding. Mac OSX still has many years left of it's life and I highly doubt it will ever die out, at least in our lifetime. You can't expect people to, say, be editing videos, photos at an advanced level, run several monitors simultaneously, manage files/data or even type out letters or run a database/ spreadsheet effectively on an iPad, no matter how beefy it's specs are. It just isn't practical.

Apple still has a market in the desktop/notebook market. If they do stop making the Mac, then existing users will just turn to Windows, which I don't see Apple allowing to happen. You're seriously underestimating the importance which the desktop computer plays in society.

 

[Krazy Bill]

I think we are a long way from the day Apple stops caring about the Mac.

By "long way", what does that mean? If you say 4-5 years then we are in agreement.

We need the opposite of devices meant for consumption.

Preaching to the choir. But the "consumers" far exceed the content providers my friend. You'll always need OSX for one thing at least... to maintain iOS!

You're seriously underestimating the importance which the desktop computer plays in society.

Yes but how long does Apple "chase" a dwindling market which it never really had a foothold. (1 out of 10 machines run OSX. Maybe 1-1/2 on its best day).

Since you clearly don't know what the word "enigma" means, I'm skeptical that you would know who's totally off the mark.

huh???

a person or thing that is mysterious, puzzling, or difficult to understand.

The Mac Pro is puzzling to me. After all this time in hiatus I don't understand why they felt the need to bring it back. The damage had pretty much been done and people were actually forgetting about it.

 

[mcarling]

Wow. You guys are totally off the mark here.

...

The MacBucket Pro is an enigma ....

Since you clearly don't know what the word "enigma" means, I'm skeptical that you would know who's totally off the mark.

 

[whitedragon101]

OSX comprises only 15% of their revenue right now and that market share is dwindling (for everyone actually).

15% of anyones revenue is hugely important. If you work for a big company and introduce a product that makes 15% of the companies revenue it would be called a run away success.

For laptops to disappear completely there will need to be something else to replace it. ipads are not a replacement.

 

[Krazy Bill]

15% of anyones revenue is hugely important. If you work for a big company and introduce a product that makes 15% of the companies revenue it would be called a run away success.

Not if it sucks resources and detracts from other, more profitable market segments. (i.e., iOS). And keep in mind... universally, the laptop/notebook segment as you know it is diminishing.

For laptops to disappear completely there will need to be something else to replace it. ipads are not a replacement.

Then why are iPads and tablets in general canabalizing said "laptops"?

Listen, I'm not saying full-fledged laptops will disappear entirely. They will however be relegated to the "niche" market and Apple's version (whatever that may be) will not be running OSX.

 

[vpro]

Help..

Someone help me understand the title of this thread? When I think revolution I think for the people. This red shiny crispy fruit company isn't for the people it is for it's own prestige and it is only for the people to consume, you can only innovate so much unless you're Björk maybe with her silly app? It isn't very revolutionary of this company ever, it is highly designed and marketed, I don't turn to their products for revolutionary. There is still a lot of room for design improvements to make the Mac even more delicious to look at and use.

NO to touch surfaces.

Personally I want the glass track pad to be flush and remove the ability to click down on it, I really dislike that clicking sound! Even thinner bezel or clear bezel but still thinner is better. Option of a cam, I rarely ever use it ever.

 

[old-wiz]

A laptop that cannot be configured with fast quad core, fast discrete graphics, 32GiB RAM, and 1.5TB of storage should not be called Pro anymore.

Configured at purchase or via immediate upgrade.

And how would you get 8 hours battery life and still carry it around with specs like that? And not have it melt?

 

[PDFierro]

I love OS X partly because it's the one true desktop OS left. Look at the way Windows has gone. Apple is the only one putting out good laptops for those of us who actually need to do stuff.

I can't see Apple ever getting rid of OS X, at least not in the next 4-5 years. It will be a cold day in hell when that happens.

Seriously, not everyone here simply just does web browsing/Facebook, etc. and uses iPads as our main machine. There would be a massive outrage if things go the way you are thinking.

OS X will be around for a long time. Not hard to believe.

 

[cirus]

I'm not giving up on a 4k 17" rMBP. The new move to PCIe SSD systems, 100% efficiency with their RAM, thunderbolt 2---this could be a match for the new MacPro including workstation graphic solutions.

I don't think a 15 watt ULV CPU will ever come close to touching a 12 core xenon. Graphically you have MUCH less CPU power to push that GPU and over a narrower interface (PCI x4) with more latency (cables). The air's PCIe drives are not better than any sata drive for random I/O

Peak random read performance is roughly comparable to the previous-generation Samsung controller. Random write performance took a bit of a hit but it's still more than fast enough for client workloads. Sequential speeds are much improved but the gains are really only visible at high queue depths. Low queue depth sequential transfers can’t be split up enough in order to really require PCIe.

The new air boots a little faster and the 'snappiness' increase is likely due to lower latency bypassing the sata controller.

I guess I'd argue by 'pro' you mean making money with said machine, right? Isn't THAT the definition and difference between professional and amateur? These days I run my business and pay all of our bills as well as mortgages with Macs alone. And other than our 2010 MacPro, I've not found myself in a situation that I could make more money with 32GB of RAM in my MBP. I see professionals EVERYwhere with Macs, including an extremely successful pair of friends of mine using the new 13" MBA. They own one of if not THE most successful advertising agencies in our market. They were at our fantasy football draft last night going on and about what an 'improvement' for them their new (13") Airs were in comparison to their 17" MBPs. They run an ad agency...print, video/TV, radio/audio production. A lot of graphic, still and motion design and creative work...as well as the website design and digital 'apps' and social networking for local businesses. Point being...
TL/DR---as successful as possible which in my book equals 'pro' or Professional.

My doctor uses an 11" Air. I consider him a pro

We're doing the front of house and back line for about a dozen bands at the state fair this week and last. Foreigner, Bill Cosby, Philip Phillips, Bret Michaels, Hailstrom, Three doors down...several others. All DMX and recording is via Mac. A couple bands are using Macs and iPads on stage.
They're pros. I promise

Its kinda obvious that the 'pro' moniker is referring to the work done with the machine. Its also kinda obvious that most of that stuff could be done on a windows craptop albeit slower perhaps due to the deficiency of a SSD. The very fact that the new airs were an improvement to the 17" MBP's would suggest that they are not using the machines for intensive work (assuming that the 17" has an SSD which can easily be added). Like the mac pro, 'pro' represents and stands for intensive use requiring a lot of power (or perhaps use under intensive conditions such as toughbooks) not stuff that could be perfectly well accomplished with an air (vs the rmbp 15").

My doctor uses ancient core 2 duo machines running XP. I consider him a professional. However, I understand that he has no need for a powerful computer system; he does not use computers professionally. There is a difference between a professional in a field and someone who uses a computer intensively.

Are you running your computer near its limits? Would a faster computer make much of a difference? If your not then you are not using, and have no need, for a professional level computer.

Macbook Pro does not cater to a lot of the professional market. While they may be useful in certain areas such as film, design, music, etc they are not nearly as useful in others such as engineering, physics, mathematics, industry, computation, etc. If apple truly wants to enter this area then they need to add, or at least have the option to add, professional graphics cards (programs such as solidworks are virtually unsuable without Quadro or Firepro), ADOBE RBG screens, maximum supported RAM, more ports, secondary HDD, etc. Of course it would be bigger and bulkier but for those who really need it, it would be worth it.
There are form factor differences between apple's desktop consumer level and professional computers. A mobile workstation should be designed for function first then form.

I've still got a pair of 2011 17" MBPs. I'm not at all fond of their 'port array'. The USB (2) ports are to close together to use more than two at a time for most USB devices...nothing has really caught on with the mini or micro or express PCMCIA slots....the rMBP (15) nailed it. If not one more USB 3 slot....twin thunderbolt. Twin USB 3 on opposite sides of the computer, HDMI, SD, an audio in/out single jack. Finally the thunderbolt docks are out and reasonable....and allow a lot of high speed connectivity including USB 3, FW800, DVI and HDMI, audio, et al. Having two ports compared to the single in the 17s has come in handy for us

Well obviously overlook all the smaller computers which manage to cram more ports on a smaller chassis.

Sure. Now show me a laptop that uses them

The sony vaio pro released on the same (similar) date as the air using a PCIe based SSD. Before msata was released most ssd cards in laptops (not the 2.5" versions) used mPCIe.

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/runcore-pata-mini-pci-e-ssd

Here you can buy some older mPCIe based drives which were commonly used in netbooks (Dell Mini 9) before the msata specification was released. At this time due to NAND and controller technology limiting drives to 3 or 6 gbps had no effect on performance.

These drives are compatible with mPCIe.

Note: Due to their design, RunCore Pro IV T-Style drives require an available WWAN slot in your PC.

WWAN use mPCIe

The whole industry is moving toward non-replaceable RAM No matter what the next gen of RAM will be (HMC looks nice), it will probably be fused on the mainboard anyway. As I wrote before, we are moving towards unified system RAM, where CPU and GPU access the same ultra-speed RAM over a very fast connection. And non-replaceable RAM further improves performance, power consumption and reliability.

There is no performance increase from soldered RAM. I am not sure about power consumption but most of the power used by the RAM is from the chips themselves not the interface. Trace length is virtually the same; the elimination of the slot will only have a minimal effect, if any, on power consumption. Likewise DRAM problems usually occur on the chips themselves. Fusing the modules to the motherboard simply means replacing the mobo if something happens (unless you want to re-solder traces which is much more DIY). Desktop RAM, when it goes bad, is mostly due to bad chips or a problem with the module, not a problem with the interface.

Well, that is precisely the point I have been trying to make. Its not a PRO machine. I am not even quite sure what this means, but a PRO machine for me is a mobile 3D workstation (e.g a Dell Precision). The MacBookPro (retina) is an very good all-round laptop which is very competent for most tasks but not particularly well suited for heavy duty workstation work. Which I don't see as a disadvantage, to be honest.

I agree.

 

[cirus]

And how would you get 8 hours battery life and still carry it around with specs like that? And not have it melt?

Well the rmbp already has a fast quad core, adding RAM doesn't really affect battery life, optimus works pretty good in windows and apple needs to fix their drivers and storage doesn't affect battery life much at all (at least going from a 500 GB HDD to a 2TB HDD).

If we normalize the battery life for each notebook we get the MSI GE40 at 8.2 minutes per watt and the macbook air 13 at 12.3 minutes per watt. We can honestly see than under LIGHT use battery life has not dropped significantly considering the MSI has a bigger screen with a higher resolution, dual drives (SSD + HDD), regular DDR3 not DDR3L and a dgpu. And it is running Windows. Adding performance does not necessarily mean reducing battery life in this age of power gating.

To not make it melt? It would have to be thicker, but then if it was thicker you could add a secondary battery (at 95 watt hours the macbook pro 15" battery capacity can't really be increased). It could turbo better and get less hot and noise would be reduced.

And lets not forget that the MSI notebook is also on a 90 watt adapter (though its CPU will use less power than the rmbp 15).

 

[whitedragon101]

Not if it sucks resources and detracts from other, more profitable market segments. (i.e., iOS). And keep in mind... universally, the laptop/notebook segment as you know it is diminishing.

The idea that the laptop business sucks resources implies that apples laptop business is operating at a loss which is unlikely. If not operating at a loss then apples laptop business pays for the resources used + some profit and will therefore not need to "suck" resources from anywhere else . Unless they loose money it makes no sense to axe it.

Then why are iPads and tablets in general canabalizing said "laptops"? :eek
.

iPads do viewing content well and will therefore take some of the content viewing market. A lot of people just browse the web and check emails so they buy an iPad instead of a laptop. But iPads don't do content creation well:

Documents and office apps, photo editing , video editing, sound recording and editing, programming , design , cad

All these and the million other things people do with computers to create content require a laptop.

(Or yet to be seen format that can do it as well)

Listen, I'm not saying full-fledged laptops will disappear entirely. They will however be relegated to the "niche" market and Apple's version (whatever that may be) will not be running OSX.

Again if :
Documents and office apps, photo editing , video editing, sound recording and editing, programming , design , cad, 3d games
Is a niche market then that's a huge niche . Microsoft became the biggest company in the world with just one of those.

 

[Agent-P]

I love OS X partly because it's the one true desktop OS left. Look at the way Windows has gone.

People are so caught up over the start screen that they forget that the traditional Windows desktop is still there. Yes, a few small things were taken out, but as a whole it is basically still the same desktop OS it was before. I have Windows 8 on my second computer, and I pretty much only ever stay on the regular desktop. It doesn't affect my workflow at all to be using Windows 8 instead of Windows 7 that it was previously running.

When Lion was first released, people started saying the same thing about OS X because of the iOS influences creeping in. Apple must've realised that this wouldn't work because Mavericks seems to be focused less on iOS influences and more on power user features. I'm sure Microsoft tried this approach to see how it would go over with users and they'll probably do the same turnaround Apple did.

 

[Atomic Walrus]

People are so caught up over the start screen that they forget that the traditional Windows desktop is still there. Yes, a few small things were taken out, but as a whole it is basically still the same desktop OS it was before. I have Windows 8 on my second computer, and I pretty much only ever stay on the regular desktop. It doesn't affect my workflow at all to be using Windows 8 instead of Windows 7 that it was previously running.

When Lion was first released, people started saying the same thing about OS X because of the iOS influences creeping in. Apple must've realised that this wouldn't work because Mavericks seems to be focused less on iOS influences and more on power user features. I'm sure Microsoft tried this approach to see how it would go over with users and they'll probably do the same turnaround Apple did.

I think we're going to see a subtle swing back in the entire market. Tablets and smartphones are at saturation now; most people have both, and interest in upgrading isn't likely very high for the majority of users (I have an iPad 2 which still works great for what it's meant to do; Browse the web and sometimes watch a video). There's probably a very real market for hybrids, but the tech isn't there yet (they're underpowered, too heavy to be tablets, etc).

Initial attempts to tabletize computers have been meant with disinterest from the general consumer base and outrage from the power users. I also think that Apple attracted more attention with the rMBP than they may know... I, along with a number of people I know, wanted an rMBP but knew that Ivy Bridge wasn't up to the task. If Haswell can do what it did for the Air in terms of battery life as well as providing a sufficient GPU solution it could be a big deal for a certain set of users.

I'm not exactly sure where we end up in the long run, but I know that it isn't at an all-tablets world.

 

[mashinhead]

Maybe they are making a Champagne colored one.

Also this is taken way out of context. The OP says it will be as revolutionary as the new Mac Pro. Exactly what is revolutionary about the new Mac Pro? It's just a redesigned desktop computer. It doesn't do anything different that other desktops don't. (In fact it does less.) Same parts and same purpose. Changing the shape of something, doesn't constitute it being revolutionary.

 

[Hackintosh Sr.]

If I were out of ideas, why not source them from the internet?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to start a thread like this? I am not saying the OP works at apple, but wouldn't that be a smart thing to do?

The world will never know. Just a random thought

 

[cube]

And how would you get 8 hours battery life and still carry it around with specs like that? And not have it melt?

It doesn't need 8 hours battery and it doesn't need to melt.

 

[Agent-P]

I think we're going to see a subtle swing back in the entire market. Tablets and smartphones are at saturation now; most people have both, and interest in upgrading isn't likely very high for the majority of users (I have an iPad 2 which still works great for what it's meant to do; Browse the web and sometimes watch a video). There's probably a very real market for hybrids, but the tech isn't there yet (they're underpowered, too heavy to be tablets, etc).

Initial attempts to tabletize computers have been meant with disinterest from the general consumer base and outrage from the power users. I also think that Apple attracted more attention with the rMBP than they may know... I, along with a number of people I know, wanted an rMBP but knew that Ivy Bridge wasn't up to the task. If Haswell can do what it did for the Air in terms of battery life as well as providing a sufficient GPU solution it could be a big deal for a certain set of users.

I'm not exactly sure where we end up in the long run, but I know that it isn't at an all-tablets world.

I would tend to agree. At this point, hybrids aren't quite the ideal solution we'd like them to be. In theory having a light laptop, with great battery life, that can turn into a tablet, AND have the perfect OS for both uses would be great. It just isn't available right now. It would allow the consolidation of the tablet and laptop in most peoples' lives. I feel a large portion of the reason hybrids haven't taken off yet is the OS options we currently have aren't suited for the task. If the perfect hybrid OS existed, I think more people would be more willing to forgive the fact that the perfect hybrid hardware doesn't exist yet.

Personally, I thought Windows 8 had the right idea about how to approach this by having a touch optimised and a desktop version both together, but Microsoft implemented it badly. Rather than force the touch experience on everyone, the OS should be smart enough to detect if the device is being used as a tablet or a computer and show the appropriate OS automatically without any user intervention (of course there would be a toggle for those that want to use one or the other). There's no need try and make an OS always be suited for both tasks when you can have two separate parts of the OS suited to each situation (which share the same files, user data, etc.)

 

[leman]

There is no performance increase from soldered RAM. I am not sure about power consumption but most of the power used by the RAM is from the chips themselves not the interface. Trace length is virtually the same; the elimination of the slot will only have a minimal effect, if any, on power consumption. Likewise DRAM problems usually occur on the chips themselves. Fusing the modules to the motherboard simply means replacing the mobo if something happens (unless you want to re-solder traces which is much more DIY). Desktop RAM, when it goes bad, is mostly due to bad chips or a problem with the module, not a problem with the interface.

It does increase performance. Non-replaceable RAM means the mainboard connection an be optimised to max (see a benchmark). Again, because the whole system can be build around a particular RAM chip, this also means that the chip is operating under optimal conditions (in a DIMM, there is always some fluctuation as the standard has to maintain certain tolerances). Unfortunately, I can't quote any statistics on failure rates but thats my observation based on personal experience and discussions in diverse forums.

 

[cirus]

It does increase performance. Non-replaceable RAM means the mainboard connection an be optimised to max (see a benchmark). Again, because the whole system can be build around a particular RAM chip, this also means that the chip is operating under optimal conditions (in a DIMM, there is always some fluctuation as the standard has to maintain certain tolerances). Unfortunately, I can't quote any statistics on failure rates but thats my observation based on personal experience and discussions in diverse forums.

The problem with memory bandwidth benchmarks are that they are really finicky. Are the numbers different because of the RAM or because the mobo is different?

Why is the sandy bridge 17" mbp getting better bandwidth than the newer 15" 2012 mbp?

Same RAM, different chipset/motherboard changes things. We don't even know the timings on the RAM modules used in that test.

 

[leman]

The problem with memory bandwidth benchmarks are that they are really finicky. Are the numbers different because of the RAM or because the mobo is different?

Well, from the article:

This was so suprising that I obtained a 2nd test kit from OWC to rule out a particular pair of modules; I obtained the same results within 1%.

So I guess that eliminates the RAM as a culprit. The 2012 cMBP and rMBP use the same chipset (AFAIK).

Why is the sandy bridge 17" mbp getting better bandwidth than the newer 15" 2012 mbp?

Good question. This also surprised me. But this is consistent with other benchmarks, e.g.

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/1294843

vs.

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/1429665

Note how the 17" gets 4.7% higher memory bandwidth despite the slower CPU. The MPG test also shows 4.7% difference. This result is way to close to be a coincidence, IMO.

We don't even know the timings on the RAM modules used in that test.

Both the 16GB OWC DDR3L-1600 kit and the modules ifixit found in the rMBP have timings of 11-11-11

 

[koyoot]

Im pretty sure that if this is gonna happen it will be a Macbook Air. No idea what revolution they can do. Except - graphite colour.

 

[cirus]

So I guess that eliminates the RAM as a culprit. The 2012 cMBP and rMBP use the same chipset (AFAIK).

Hmm. What I'd like to see is someone with a retina 15" run the sandra memory test under bootcamp. Can anyone do this?

 

[racer1441]

A laptop that cannot be configured with fast quad core, fast discrete graphics, 32GiB RAM, and 1.5TB of storage should not be called Pro anymore.

Configured at purchase or via immediate upgrade.

That's just insane. Pro means professional, not professional video editors only.