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How has your day "without" been?
- Thread starter nbs2
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Felldownthewell said:
Nice photos of the demonstration.
It must have been neat to have been in the midst of it.
I went out for dinner tonight with a friend and we had a waiter who seemed to be Hispanic. He was rather abrupt, almost surly, and we both wondered later if maybe he were annoyed that he had to work instead of being out demonstrating somewhere.... Could be that the restaurant managers told their employees that if they didn't show up for work at their regularly-scheduled time today, that they might as well forget about coming in tomorrow or thereafter, too....
I don't quite get why these people feel the need to demonstrate or hold protests and I also am definitely puzzled as to why those who are in this country illegally are demanding citizenship rights. Uh....if they're in the US through having circumvented legal means of entry and if they're living here illegally, possibly earning money "under the table," not paying US taxes, yet attempting to utilize many services for which US taxes and US cititzens are paying what entitles them to ANY rights at all?
Doesn't the word "illegal" mean something?
I don't quite get why these people feel the need to demonstrate or hold protests and I also am definitely puzzled as to why those who are in this country illegally are demanding citizenship rights. Uh....if they're in the US through having circumvented legal means of entry and if they're living here illegally, possibly earning money "under the table," not paying US taxes, yet attempting to utilize many services for which US taxes and US cititzens are paying what entitles them to ANY rights at all?
Doesn't the word "illegal" mean something?
Clix Pix said:
You are pushing the boundaries in order to keep this out of the PF. And so I maybe too, hope not.
That being said, a topic like this is hard to discuss. One either you are xenophobic, or a tree hugging liberal. There does not seem to be much middle ground that does not end in bashing by one side or another. Some already know where I stand.
But if one reads the news for the debate on the issue, there is something about the need for low cost workers, to do jobs that US citizens and legal immigrants will do. Few of us are willing to pay more in order for the lowest workers to get better pay. If we are fighting a "war" on terrorism, then we need to do more to protect our borders both north and south.
As to the "illegals" in the US already. This is where I am truly split. The conservative side says no way, they broke the law. My grandparents didn't. The liberal side says that these individuals have tried to make a life here, why not let them stay?
I hope that I kept the debate civil in order for this thread to stay where it is. For we are all too afraid to be looked upon as a "hawk or a dove" to truly speak to the issues at stake.
Given some of the estimates of "illegals" in the US, how do we deal with these "persona non grata"? How do we deport the sheer numbers that have been floated?
I have no true answers myself. But the inaction of our government to address this issue for 20-30 years is now coming to roost. I might share in the PF a possible solution.
No difference. A whole lot less people on the streets and the National Mall today than yesterday (Darfur rally). Honestly can't say I would have noticed if I didn't know about it in advance.
Chip NoVaMac said:
Well, um....because they are here illegally? They broke specific laws that have been established by the United States and are now living here in this country, continuing to disregard these and undoubtedly many other laws.
Illegal. Not legal. Against the law.
So, does this mean that I or someone else can waltz into a store and help ourselves to some merchandise without paying for it and walk out unscathed? That, too, is an illegal act, no?
I think there is a fundamental need here to definitively define "illegal" and act accordingly.
ChipNoVaMac said:
That is a good question and it is one which needs to be addressed.
Clix Pix said:
Why does the apple you just handed me taste different from the orange I ate yesterday?
thedude110 said:
Well, the stats came back today.
We usually have about 20% of the student body absent on a given day.
On the day without, 68% were absent.
Wow. I'm comparing that with how people were affected, based on my unscientific poll, and it has stayed at about 61-63% unaffected (including those who don't live in affected areas and those who participated).thedude110 said:
It seems like a lot of people participated, but those who didn't weren't really affected. Interesting...
i was going to do my major twice-monthly grocery shopping that day, but to respect the movement, i did the shopping a day before...a small contribution but i think a lot of californians, especially, did not go to school or buy or sell much of anything
a lot of people may have closed their shop/restaurant doors or refrained from shopping out of fear and not out of support of any movement or idea...the good thing is that a million plus demonstrated peacefully all around the country and it must be a first in u.s. history
all the american flags out among the crowds made me feel proud to be an american and i am not a flag waver by any means, but seeing how many people want to be americans and be in america made me feel proud like never before...there must be something great about this country (still), george w bushie and all, that people think it's still worth coming here
i was starting to feel bad about the usa with our awful president, the record defecit, and the ongoing war, but the pro usa sentiment of the demonstrators redeemed my belief in america
a lot of people may have closed their shop/restaurant doors or refrained from shopping out of fear and not out of support of any movement or idea...the good thing is that a million plus demonstrated peacefully all around the country and it must be a first in u.s. history
all the american flags out among the crowds made me feel proud to be an american and i am not a flag waver by any means, but seeing how many people want to be americans and be in america made me feel proud like never before...there must be something great about this country (still), george w bushie and all, that people think it's still worth coming here
i was starting to feel bad about the usa with our awful president, the record defecit, and the ongoing war, but the pro usa sentiment of the demonstrators redeemed my belief in america
"Hey honey, lets keep the kids home from school today and have them miss out on an education that may give them a better life in this country. That'll show those damn legals how vital we are!"thedude110 said:
GENIUS!
I had to miss work yesterday as I was stranded out of town by a fuel system problem. I think when the boss returns tomorrow and asks why I wasn't there, I will just use the day without excuse.
The principle behind that is to prove really, the economical impact of these non-documented workers and their families.freeny said:"Hey honey, lets keep the kids home from school today and have them miss out on an education that may give them a better life in this country. That'll show those damn legals how vital we are!"
GENIUS!
Public schools are paid/funded based on attendance. Low attendance means less revenue.
Just one other way that these people do support local economies and local communities.
I live in a border city so on Monday, the city was completely deserted, 50% of the kids in my school didn't go, and in one school, only 13% went.
devilot said:
Whoa! Sorry, but you've got it wrong. These people do NOT support local economies and they are NOT adding to local revenues by attending/not attending school. They are adding enormous burdens to the school budgets in many communities throughout the US. The taxpayers -- the law-abiding LEGAL US citizens who work for an honest living and who pay out of their paychecks for federal and state and local services are the ones supporting the schools, not these illegal immigrants who are collecting their wages "under the table" while collecting or attempting to collect benefits from many US social service agencies and also sending their kids to the public schools in the communities in which they've parked themselves. Actually, if many of those children were absent maybe the teacher might have had a decent crack at teaching something because he or she wouldn't have been bogged down by language barriers, behavior issues and so on....
The economical impact of these illegal immigrants and their spawn on this country has IMHO not been beneficial at all. It has been a huge drain of assets which could have been better spent elsewhere. IMHO the US would be perfectly well off without these people who sneaked in here illegally and IMHO it would be just fine if they would now be identified, rounded up and promptly deported. They have been in this country ILLLEGALLY for Chrissakes! (Yes, I know this is not going to be received well by many readers but it is my opinion....)
The OP requested that this thread remain neutral and in the Community Discussion. As such, I tried not to get too political in my above post; just answered a question/ statement of confusion.Clix Pix said:
It's true though, schools get paid based on attendance.
Other than that, I won't get further into this discussion in this thread.
devilot said:
As did I: the fact is that the schools are funded by the TAXPAYERS of the community, NOT those non-taxpayers who may happen to live in it and send their children to the schools in it......
I am a person without children who has never sent children to any public or private school in my area. However, the taxes which are taken from my paychecks do go to support the schools in my community and I certainly have no objection to that. I do object, however, to the fact that there are many undocumented -- ILLEGAL -- residents in my community who are in fact sending their children to the county public schools and deriving the benefits for which they are paying nothing and for which taxes taken out of my paychecks are paying something.....
devilot said:
I understand what you're saying but I don't quite agree with your logic. If 100 kids attend a school, the federal government will fund the school for 100 kids. But that money comes from federal taxes which I'm not sure most illegal immigrants pay. A friend of mine made the claim that they create fake social security numbers when applying for jobs and thus do pay taxes, many of which never collect on a refund in fear of filing a tax return and being "found out." I disagreed because they could just as easily write "exempt" and not pay any taxes. And those that do pay taxes, if they have children, most likely use more resources than they pay in taxes. They might pay 1-2K but a child will cost 10k/year (my guess) in federal education money. They also pay sales tax but I don't think the give and take is in the govt's favor on that one either.
I'm all for people immigrating here. I myself immigrated from the python infested rainforests of Burma at the age of four(we grow up tough in a 3rd world country
). The message I get from the "day without" demonstrators is that they believe anyone should be able to come when they want to. My parents had to wait 10 years because they were rejected a few times. Now, I'm not saying everyone has to wait that long but certain things have to be done, like background and health checks. And even then, there has to be yearly limit/quotas or else portions of the country will just be inundated. All these things sound reasonable to me. I've yet to hear the logic behind allowing unlimited foreigners to come as they please except for equivocating the "free" in the phrase "it's a free country."
That's from the very first post, the thread creator.nbs2 said:
What I said earlier wasn't an opinion-- it's fact. Public schools do receive money based on day-to-day attendance.
Anyway, if there is such a desire to discuss this issue with more depth then someone should create a thread in the Political Forum.
Clix Pix said:
It would be impossible to deport even 50% of all illegal immigrants. I heard an estimate that it would cost more than the Iraq war. By the time we do get around to deporting them, after finding them, many of them would probably be too integrated to deport without negative consequences. I think that was part of the point of Monday.
And just to note, the country wouldn't be where it is today without large influxes of poor immigrants in the past. The only problem is that, as an entity, any foreign entities that enter take time to integrate. We've forgotten about all the past waves of Irish and Italian immigrants and our past xenophobia because they're a fully integrated cog in our machine. To take that cog out would throw everything off and our country would have to adjust again. It's kind of a moot point because a large ethnic group isn't going to suddenly leave America. But it's the point that was attempted on Monday. In 30 years, if the current illegal immigrants stay, there would be no argument that they are an asset to the country. It's the transition period where I think they are a tiny bit of a financial burden to people already here.
Probably so....in the first place it would be hard to capture all of them and in the second place, yeah, it would be bloody expensive, adding even more to what they have already cost legitimate tax-paying citizens.itcheroni said:
Itcheroni said:
Oh, I quite agree....but "poor" immigrants does not mean "illegal" immigrants. It's the illegal piece that bothers me and I guess quite a few others in this country. I have no objection to welcoming those who come into this country from somewhere else...as long as they do it legally and aboveboard and as long as while they are living here they abide by the laws set forth in this country. The United States would not be what it is today if it were not for the many who left their own countries to see how they could thrive in this new world.... I have great admiration for those who came here with very little and who have managed to raise a family, eventually buy property, clearly establish themselves firmly in the community.... Immigrants have made great contributions to the United States in innumerable ways.
That whole "illegal" piece is what sticks in my craw about this current situation and the fact that these people have the bloody outright gall to demand "rights." To what rights are they entitled? None in my book if they can't even be bothered to enter this country legally in the first place and follow the law once they're here. My opinion only: others may have different viewpoints and that's fine....
Clix Pix said:
What is it about the illegal status?
For me, if they're here and working, they might as well be granted a visa in order to integrate them faster. Other than that, I don't really mind too much. That's probably because I believe things will always work towards a homeostasis. And I also think 99% of illegal immigrants just want to live and work here so it's more logistics I'm concerned with.