Just look at the DS. I have a couple games that don't require the use of physical buttons at all. They allow you to use them, but you can get along just fine solely with the touchscreen.
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How powerful is iPhone compared to PSP & DS?
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Just look at the DS. I have a couple games that don't require the use of physical buttons at all. They allow you to use them, but you can get along just fine solely with the touchscreen.
well if you put it that way it's just who has a bigger name
And i thought we were talking about specs not wich one sells more
I said this in a previous post, but those thinking the Iphone is going to outperform the DS or PSP in gaming terms should probably relax some.
The Iphone can be a great gaming platform, but there are some hurdles before it will become the hottest gaming device on the planet..
Apple did not intentional design the Iphone to game, it was more than likely a mere afterthought. Those looking at specs are not seeing the whole picture.
The Iphone is a phone, and business tool first and foremost.
The biggest problem for gaming is the memory allocation of the GPU. The PSP and DS have dedicated for gaming 24/7 the Iphone has a shared memory configuration which will allow gaming but you would be looking at small levels for the most part.
The games we will see while they CAN be good, would have to be tailored to an advanced mobile experience. Meaning less than handheld but better than normal phones..
I expect the first year of the Iphones gaming life will a rash of ports from other phone games. Once they have teams, and experience with the Iphone I would expect alot of turn based games and if anything more puzzle, games.
with no controllers to speak of your limited to mostly motion movement games.
So Racing games, Puzzle games, and turn based RPG kind of games are going to make the best games for the Iphone.. That said im all for it and you will hear alot more from me on this subject later..
The Iphone can be a great gaming platform, but there are some hurdles before it will become the hottest gaming device on the planet..
Apple did not intentional design the Iphone to game, it was more than likely a mere afterthought. Those looking at specs are not seeing the whole picture.
The Iphone is a phone, and business tool first and foremost.
The biggest problem for gaming is the memory allocation of the GPU. The PSP and DS have dedicated for gaming 24/7 the Iphone has a shared memory configuration which will allow gaming but you would be looking at small levels for the most part.
The games we will see while they CAN be good, would have to be tailored to an advanced mobile experience. Meaning less than handheld but better than normal phones..
I expect the first year of the Iphones gaming life will a rash of ports from other phone games. Once they have teams, and experience with the Iphone I would expect alot of turn based games and if anything more puzzle, games.
with no controllers to speak of your limited to mostly motion movement games.
So Racing games, Puzzle games, and turn based RPG kind of games are going to make the best games for the Iphone.. That said im all for it and you will hear alot more from me on this subject later..
Both myself and raggedjimmi have already mentioned this if you read the thread. (and both of us also have a perspective on the gaming industry.)
Yes and hopefully this will spur innovation and force developers to rethink the way games ought to be made. 30+ years of button pushing and d-pads are finally about to come to an end, imho. Check out this article from someone who has programmed on other smartphones and their reaction to the iPhone and it's sdk. Here's a snippet:
"The accelerometer is developer candy that will break Apple into the gaming market in a way that the Mac never could. iPhone can sense orientation and movement in 3-D space. As you move, or whatever is carrying your iPhone or iPod Touch moves, an application can know about it. The possibilities are endless, and there are serious uses for 3-D position sensing that can't be set aside. It's an ultimately intuitive controller for complex processes that currently require operators to bypass humans' natural 3-D perception in favor of 2-D controls such as buttons, switches, mice, and joysticks."
So... EA and Sega are not big enough studios for you? Did you watch the SDK event video? Apple is courting the big boys and they are saying how impressed they are with the power of the iPhone and the SDK. Spore is coming to the iPhone! Super Monkey Ball looked great! Exclusives from the big boys WILL happen.
I don't know where you get that idea. Again, as I mentioned before, if you would have watched the SDK event, you would have seen the engineer from Sega saying how, not only did they underestimate the power of the iPhone, that their 3D game Super Monkey Ball (which they showed; watch the event video!) was a full console version of the game, not a cellphone game (and not a less than handheld game either!)
Yes, unfortunately many "cellphone" developers will jump on the bandwagon and port their titles straight over. And many big studios will port over their existing console games with some limitations since those games were initially made for [archaic] button pushing, d-pad controlling consoles.
What I have been saying all along and what some of you here are STILL missing with your lack of forward thinking is, that this powerful new mobile computing platform that is unfortunately labeled as an iPhone is going to spur new innovation like we have never seen when it comes to gaming. There will be NEW genres created and 5 years from now, when EVERY cellphone, handheld gaming device and [possibly] laptop computer is using nothing more than multitouch screens and accelerometers you will all wonder how we were ever playing games with push buttons and d-pads before... and you'll all forget how this revolution came to be.
Just a side note to how much the iPhone has already changed the landscape of things; Sure, Apple didn't invent multi-touch. When Jobs announced the iPhone Jan 2007 Microsoft was announcing their Surface, Jeff Han (who I have been a great admirer of for a few years) had already demonstrated his Multi-touch projects a year or two previous, but none of that mattered because none of it had been brought to market... until the iPhone was released June 2007. Then all of a sudden, every cellphone maker is trying to make touchscreen phones (forgetting that the iPhone is multi-touch with a GREAT OS behind it), CNN all of a sudden is using a giant [Jeff Han like] Multi-touch screen, etc. Everything is changing and being shook up in this industry and in others. And this is what Apple has always been great at. They take an idea that's been in the [several] research labs and are able to polish it up and bring it to the average consumer. From the first GUI and mouse based computer to this iPhone, Apple moves forward with innovation, always to a chorus of people that say "that'll never fly" and yet, several years later, they all jump on the bandwagon. And it will be the same with gaming on the iPhone. Mark my words.
Dang, my soapbox is getting more use than I intended lately, but this is an exciting time in technology and I am just glad to be here to witness it all!
Agreed. Much is the same with the iPod. There were mp3 players before the iPod was created, but 
made it ubiquitous.
The same thing with touchscreen tech. I had a Sony Ericsson p800 phone in 2003 with a touchscreen, that was pretty cool back then, and I'm sure many pda's had them ages ago too, but the iPhone has redefined the benchmark of what we expect from any future touchscreen.
Anyway, getting back to the iPhone as a gaming device, I wonder if the accelerometer is an analogue or digital sensor?
made it ubiquitous.The same thing with touchscreen tech. I had a Sony Ericsson p800 phone in 2003 with a touchscreen, that was pretty cool back then, and I'm sure many pda's had them ages ago too, but the iPhone has redefined the benchmark of what we expect from any future touchscreen.
Anyway, getting back to the iPhone as a gaming device, I wonder if the accelerometer is an analogue or digital sensor?
Technically, the accelerometer is an analogue device that outputs digitally. From their documentation:
That's a good point. I'm sure there are a lot of non gamers with iPhones who would still love a few fun games like Monkey Ball.
genshi,
While I appreciate your views and technical prowess when it comes to this subject I do need to point out that the Iphone does not offer anything new to game design. The Nintendo DS has a touch screen similar in principal to the Iphone and the Sony PS3 has motion sensory in the SIXAXIS controller along with the Nintendo Wiimote to some degree. Now yes new games have come from it, but many more horribly controlled games have as well..
The Only difference with the Iphone being that it's a phone. We will see some new genres for sure but to say we will forget our gaming past because of Apples accelerometers is just not true.. It will make some great games, limited in scope and features but to be honest many of the PS3 and Wii titles that try to use the SIXAXIS and Wiimote technologies fail miserably and leave me wanting my trusty game pad even more!
I hope Apple forces calibration for each game as everyone of us tilts differently otherwise we may see some really loose controls..
Still Im all for it and onboard with Apple gaming..
Ah, to be young and innocent.
First, of course any company making games will exclaim "what an amazing platform", it's just part of the marketing. It doesn't actually mean anything most of the time. Dog & pony shows and short demos are not indicative of much either.
Second, every few years someone declares that X is dead and we'll all do Y instead. And it's usually false. Heck, I did more voice control with my home computer 25 years ago than I do now, for example. Although I've done entire voice response systems for work.
And no, touchscreens aren't going to replace mice and keyboards in normal use any time soon, any more than voice is.
It's wonderful that people get excited over something that's new (to them), but try to realize that history repeats itself in the tech biz... a lot
Heck, if I had a nickel for every programming language that was going to replace all others, I'd be retired by now!
First, of course any company making games will exclaim "what an amazing platform", it's just part of the marketing. It doesn't actually mean anything most of the time. Dog & pony shows and short demos are not indicative of much either.
Second, every few years someone declares that X is dead and we'll all do Y instead. And it's usually false. Heck, I did more voice control with my home computer 25 years ago than I do now, for example. Although I've done entire voice response systems for work.
And no, touchscreens aren't going to replace mice and keyboards in normal use any time soon, any more than voice is.
It's wonderful that people get excited over something that's new (to them), but try to realize that history repeats itself in the tech biz... a lot
Heck, if I had a nickel for every programming language that was going to replace all others, I'd be retired by now!
Except in each of those cases you mentioned, they didn't have to rely solely on their single touchscreen [DS] or their accelerometers [PS3 &Wii] so they were always able to fall back on their buttons. With the iPhone, it will FORCE developers to really rethink all of this. Now, maybe I am really being overly optimistic about this but...
And also, just like how everyone tried to compare previous "touch" screen PDAs to the iPhone, you can't compare the DS stylus-based, single touch screen with the iPhones multi-touch. It really is a huge difference in many ways; we haven't even begun to see all it could do!
Ah, to be young and innocent.
First, of course any company making games will exclaim "what an amazing platform", it's just part of the marketing. It doesn't actually mean anything most of the time. Dog & pony shows and short demos are not indicative of much either.
Second, every few years someone declares that X is dead and we'll all do Y instead. And it's usually false. Heck, I did more voice control with my home computer 25 years ago than I do now, for example. Although I've done entire voice response systems for work.
And no, touchscreens aren't going to replace mice and keyboards in normal use any time soon, any more than voice is.
It's wonderful that people get excited over something that's new (to them), but try to realize that history repeats itself in the tech biz... a lot
Heck, if I had a nickel for every programming language that was going to replace all others, I'd be retired by now!
Young and innocent? If you are referring to me, check my sig or Google me. I'm 44 years old and no spring chicken. I've been computing since the late 1970s and an Apple user since the early 1980s. I've worked in the video game industry for years (from Philips Media to Universal Interactive Studios where I worked on Crash Bandicoot and many other titles for the Sony Playstation) only to leave because I felt that the video game industry was becoming too derivative of itself; everything is just a pretty rehash of everything that has already been done. So if anything, maybe I've become jaded with all of my years of experience and I'm hoping for something completely new.
But more importantly, you are partially right when you say that "every few years someone declares that X is dead and we'll all do Y instead." But you are wrong when you say it's usually false... at least when it comes to Apple. And that was my whole point:
• When they introduced the Machintosh in 1984, everyone in the industry said that it would never take off because nobody will want to use a mouse to click around on icons; that you MUST have a command line always. Now, of course, here we are with mouse and icons on every platform...
• In the 1990s when they dropped the floppy drive from their Macs they were laughed at. People said it would be the end of Apple. hmm, haven't seen a floppy drive for many a year on any computer...
• 2000s with the iPod. There were many other digital media players at the time that played more formats, had bigger storage for less money and had many "traditional" buttons to navigate, yet the iPod and it's click wheel took over the market and has been copied by all.
• And now, with the iPhone... well come on, it wasn't that long ago since it was introduced. Simply search these forums to see how many people (and competitors) claimed that it would fail miserably because you can't have a cellphone that doesn't have a physical keypad or keyboard; that "touch screens" have already been done (boy they just don't get it.) The iPhone has proven every one of these nay-sayers wrong every step of the way for exactly the reasons I've stated in my previous posts; because short-sided, narrow-minded people people can't seem to "get it" because they are so stuck in the present (and thus, really, on the past) instead of being able to be forward thinking.
Especially in your case kdarling (and I really don't mean offense by this and I am just speculating) because you sound like a true dyed-in-the-wool Windows programmer who HAS seen his share of tech repeat itself over and over... well, it's time to step out of the dark and into the light of the world of innovation. They call it Apple.
And to those that say touchscreens won't replace a mouse and keyboard, you were the same ones that said the mouse and GUI would never be used as much as a command line based computer! Seriously though, follow the true innovators like Jeff Han. Read up on futurists like Ray Kurzweil, you'll see where we are headed and 20 years from now when Apple releases the first consumer computer that can jack into your brain, you'll be saying "that brain-jacking thing will never replace my good ol' multi-touch computer..."
My guess is that all these breathless predictions of Apple storming the gaming world and overtaking the PSP and DS will not occur in reality.
With both the PSP and DS there was already market recognition for the respective companies and quality (to some extent) gaming. The DS had the upper hand because Nintendo was better known for hand-held gaming and the new(ish) concept of utilising a touch screen captured attention.
The iPhone has nothing going for it in terms of it being a gaming system. The market views the iPhone as... a phone. Not a portable gaming platform, which will dent any possible sales it may get.
Unless it can find a set of killer games that establish the iPhone in the minds of consumers as a gaming platform it will fail, just as the N-Gage did. Monkey Ball is not that game.
With both the PSP and DS there was already market recognition for the respective companies and quality (to some extent) gaming. The DS had the upper hand because Nintendo was better known for hand-held gaming and the new(ish) concept of utilising a touch screen captured attention.
The iPhone has nothing going for it in terms of it being a gaming system. The market views the iPhone as... a phone. Not a portable gaming platform, which will dent any possible sales it may get.
Unless it can find a set of killer games that establish the iPhone in the minds of consumers as a gaming platform it will fail, just as the N-Gage did. Monkey Ball is not that game.
Not one of my posts say that the iPhone would overtake the PSP or DS, in fact, I've already stated that I agree that it probably wouldn't (if you read the whole thread) but what I am saying to people specifically like YOU is when you say that the "iPhone has nothing going for it in terms of being a gaming system" just shows your short-sided, narrow minded way of thinking.
Man, if you guys don't get it already, then I don't know what more to say. All of these arguments that you are slinging about how the iPhone can't be a good gaming platform or can't offer anything new or will be limited without buttons is EXACTLY the same arguments that were made when the iPhone first came out and was compared to other cellphones. And EXACTLY the same arguments when the iPod came out, and etc. and etc. and etc.!
I give up.
in the video @ apple.com, they said that iphone gpu was hardware accelerated
Most smartphone these days have some form of hardware accelerated graphics.
No offense taken, and none meant, of course. I'm a 54 year old computer engineer. Did my first programming when I was 12 in 1965; designed and handwired my first computer with 1K of memory in 1978.
Have written games, drivers, GUIs, kernels, browsers and so many other things I've quite forgotten. I worked on the very first interactive TV settop boxes.
I disliked DOS and Windows. Helped create a startup company multimedia computer that was meant to compete with the Amiga. The company failed, but I used the computer for years, so you're mistaken: I was probably the last person to even get a Microsoft PC. And only because work forced me.
For the past eighteen years I worked with touchscreens; for the past fifteen with handhelds doing field apps. I'm typing to you on a touchscreen laptop. My apps were touch friendly and had flick-scrolling etc over a decade before the iPhone was glimmer in anyone's eye.
Touchscreens have their place. But not everywhere
No offense taken, and none meant, of course. I'm a 54 year old computer engineer. Did my first programming when I was 12 in 1965; designed and handwired my first computer with 1K of memory in 1978.
Have written games, drivers, GUIs, kernels, browsers and so many other things I've quite forgotten. I worked on the very first interactive TV settop boxes.
I disliked DOS and Windows. Helped create a startup company multimedia computer that was meant to compete with the Amiga. The company failed, but I used the computer for years, so you're mistaken: I was probably the last person to even get a Microsoft PC. And only because work forced me.
For the past eighteen years I worked with touchscreens; for the past fifteen with handhelds doing field apps. I'm typing to you on a touchscreen laptop. My apps were touch friendly and had flick-scrolling etc over a decade before the iPhone was glimmer in anyone's eye.
Touchscreens have their place. But not everywhere
I was hoping I was wrong about you and it seems that I was. But be honest, with all of your touchscreen and computing experience, have you ever used or seen anything like the iPhone? More specifically, the elegant simplicity of the user interface (and user experience) due to it's engineering, design, multi-touch and OS?
People eventually see through plain old hype, but the reason so many people have embraced the iPhone (and talked, blogged, fight, worshipped, mocked and consistently kept it in the press nonstop more than any other device in recent history) is because it is more than just hype. It is more than what us old tyme computer hackers ever dreamed was possible in computing. You of all people should embrace this unless you too are more jaded and/or stuck in your old ways than you care to admit.
I personally just think this is a really exciting time in technology, and if I am seeing this world through rose-colored glasses more than I should then so be it. But as a self-proclaimed futurist whose predictions on technology have been pretty accurate thus far I'd rather err on the side of optimism than on the side of FUD.
Genshi,
Nothing wrong with rose colored glasses, at least your passionate and in fact I truly hope game developers are as well and we do not end up with Bejeweled 20 sequels all over the place!
Game development used to be about the games and the artists who created them, something changed for alot of them over the years and it seems we are getting rushed products with very little innovations these days at the cost of the dollar..
Im excited, your excited and so are millions of other games, but lets look at reality and you will see Apple over the last few years has showcased gaming, but not really pushed for it. Lets hope apple is serious and the Iphone and OSX 10.5 finally get some major heavy hitters backing the platforms.. In all honesty should apple decide to make a major gaming push they could easily convert 5-10 million more users into buying an Apple computer as many users are willing to move to Apple but reluctant to lose their gaming machines...
Please do not speak about boot-camp.. The reason to move to Apple is not bootcamp and while it works you do not get the experience an Apple gives you nor the reliability...
So Ill be damned Ill put on those rose colored glasses as well and Jump In so to speak... Im all for 100% new gameplay methods and if the Iphone brings it hot damn....
The last hurdle will be cost for the Iphone. We need to get the price of admission lower and we need to keep developers from rushing crap out and charging 29.99 for the experience.. If they can make 5-6 hour games for 5.99 or even 9.99 I think they have a market..
PS. Know I know who to blame for my wasted semi-youth.. Ps I just got Warped on the PSP via Playstation network and the damn game still holds up to todays standards...
Nothing wrong with rose colored glasses, at least your passionate and in fact I truly hope game developers are as well and we do not end up with Bejeweled 20 sequels all over the place!
Game development used to be about the games and the artists who created them, something changed for alot of them over the years and it seems we are getting rushed products with very little innovations these days at the cost of the dollar..
Im excited, your excited and so are millions of other games, but lets look at reality and you will see Apple over the last few years has showcased gaming, but not really pushed for it. Lets hope apple is serious and the Iphone and OSX 10.5 finally get some major heavy hitters backing the platforms.. In all honesty should apple decide to make a major gaming push they could easily convert 5-10 million more users into buying an Apple computer as many users are willing to move to Apple but reluctant to lose their gaming machines...
Please do not speak about boot-camp.. The reason to move to Apple is not bootcamp and while it works you do not get the experience an Apple gives you nor the reliability...
So Ill be damned Ill put on those rose colored glasses as well and Jump In so to speak... Im all for 100% new gameplay methods and if the Iphone brings it hot damn....
The last hurdle will be cost for the Iphone. We need to get the price of admission lower and we need to keep developers from rushing crap out and charging 29.99 for the experience.. If they can make 5-6 hour games for 5.99 or even 9.99 I think they have a market..
PS. Know I know who to blame for my wasted semi-youth.. Ps I just got Warped on the PSP via Playstation network and the damn game still holds up to todays standards...
Since the iPhone/Touch is supposed to be a "console experience" everyone should expect console prices. I would not be in the least bit surprised to see EA (and other big time dev/publishers) charge DS or even PSP game prices for games on the iPhone/Touch. And I would be even less suprised if the iPhone/Touch get ports of stuff that is already out (Spore withstanding).
No way we get console like experiences thats complete PR speak. No developer will be making 4 gig Iphone games. I expect XBOX live or PSN quality games that are like 100-200 megs and are priced at 5.99 to 9.99 If they go 39.99 for games they are going to be destroying the market before it gets started...
Hey Dorfdad, I never mentioned boot-camp!!!
I do agree that in the past Apple has teased us about game development for the Mac and never really came through, but something seems different this time. I think Jobs and Co. really see the potential of the iPhone being everything to everyone. And it seems they are already getting some heavy hitters. And the buzz from everyone in the industry regarding this SDK is almost overwhelming.
I also agree that for gaming to work on the iPhone, the titles need to be probably no more than $9.99. But again, this will be up to the game developers (not Apple) and hopefully they will not just rehash the same old drivel as they have before. I just downloaded a new and interesting little game for the PSP called "FLOW" for only $7.99. This game is just begging to be on the iPhone...
And no, we won't be getting 4 GB games, but we will at least be getting PSP and DS quality games and that was the whole point of the discussion in the first place.
I do agree that in the past Apple has teased us about game development for the Mac and never really came through, but something seems different this time. I think Jobs and Co. really see the potential of the iPhone being everything to everyone. And it seems they are already getting some heavy hitters. And the buzz from everyone in the industry regarding this SDK is almost overwhelming.
I also agree that for gaming to work on the iPhone, the titles need to be probably no more than $9.99. But again, this will be up to the game developers (not Apple) and hopefully they will not just rehash the same old drivel as they have before. I just downloaded a new and interesting little game for the PSP called "FLOW" for only $7.99. This game is just begging to be on the iPhone...
And no, we won't be getting 4 GB games, but we will at least be getting PSP and DS quality games and that was the whole point of the discussion in the first place.
Hey Dorfdad, I never mentioned boot-camp!!!
I do agree that in the past Apple has teased us about game development for the Mac and never really came through, but something seems different this time. I think Jobs and Co. really see the potential of the iPhone being everything to everyone. And it seems they are already getting some heavy hitters. And the buzz from everyone in the industry regarding this SDK is almost overwhelming.
I also agree that for gaming to work on the iPhone, the titles need to be probably no more than $9.99. But again, this will be up to the game developers (not Apple) and hopefully they will not just rehash the same old drivel as they have before. I just downloaded a new and interesting little game for the PSP called "FLOW" for only $7.99. This game is just begging to be on the iPhone...
And no, we won't be getting 4 GB games, but we will at least be getting PSP and DS quality games and that was the whole point of the discussion in the first place.
flOw is free here since it started out as a flash game. I would expect a game like flOw to be under 10 USD. It really isn't that complex (compared to WarHawk which is also downloadable).
Basically most games on XBLA as ports of older games or flash games. PSN has a few flash games and ports, but there are more full games (See Warhawk, GT5 Prologue). What we really should be looking forward to is games like Echo Chrome (even though it was made by Sony but you get the idea).
The thing is DS quality games will be small (about 128 MB), but PSP quality games wont be that small (think 600+MB) shoot God of War: Chains of Olympus has an ISO size of 1.3 GB I am sure some of that may be video and duplicated assets, but even then the game could easily be 600+MB. Games of that level won't be $10, I am pretty sure we will see 19.99-29.99 (or more) dollar games when talking about that level.