Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
flOw is free here since it started out as a flash game. I would expect a game like flOw to be under 10 USD. It really isn't that complex (compared to WarHawk which is also downloadable).

Basically most games on XBLA as ports of older games or flash games. PSN has a few flash games and ports, but there are more full games (See Warhawk, GT5 Prologue). What we really should be looking forward to is games like Echo Chrome (even though it was made by Sony but you get the idea).

The thing is DS quality games will be small (about 128 MB), but PSP quality games wont be that small (think 600+MB) shoot God of War: Chains of Olympus has an ISO size of 1.3 GB I am sure some of that may be video and duplicated assets, but even then the game could easily be 600+MB. Games of that level won't be $10, I am pretty sure we will see 19.99-29.99 (or more) dollar games when talking about that level.

Didn't know Flow was a flash game first. And I'm glad I never tried it before as it is incredibly slow on my system as a flash game (unplayable actually.) The PSP version is much smoother but it really needs accelerometer-based game play.

But I can see 600 MB games on the iPhone easily. I mean, if we can have over 1 GB movies on it why not games (though downloading a 1 GB game directly from the app store via the cell network won't exactly be a walk in the park!)

Flow will be coming im sure! if we had a flashplayer it would be free now!

Genshi, did you get your PM?

Yep, added you yesterday but haven't been on Chat. Will be later today...
 
Didn't know Flow was a flash game first. And I'm glad I never tried it before as it is incredibly slow on my system as a flash game (unplayable actually.) The PSP version is much smoother but it really needs accelerometer-based game play.

But I can see 600 MB games on the iPhone easily. I mean, if we can have over 1 GB movies on it why not games (though downloading a 1 GB game directly from the app store via the cell network won't exactly be a walk in the park!)



Yep, added you yesterday but haven't been on Chat. Will be later today...
Ah, I was really meaning to touch on game pricing. Everyone seems to be expecting PSP/DS quality at XBLA prices. I only see that being the case if the game isn't complex, games in the same vein of FF7:CC or GoW: CoO should clock in at 20+ USD (games like that I would expect to be closer to 40 USD).

Game size may not be that big of a deal. There I was just pointing out the difference in game sizes between the two platforms (DS and PSP).
 
I know someone with a 500Mhz pentium processor with 128 (upgraded from 64) Mb of ram. I think that this is a good example of how while specs are important, the iphone isn't that powerful (well, maybe it is, and we can all install Windows 98 so we can play games or run programs as powerful as starcraft, word, etc).

Mostly, this discussion has made me think of a few points:

1.) IF developers are eventually allowed to access the connector port and people use the iPhone/iPod for games, then I'm going to want a really nice rechargable battery to strap on, because the games won't last long otherwise.

2.) The utility of tactile controlls depends entirely on the type of game being played. Having used Super Monkey Ball on the Wii, it would work great with the motion sensors and occasional touch screen, far better than only with buttons. Having tried to play mario on the ipod with a NES emulator, I realize that buttons are sometimes a necessity. There is already one button, the home button, and some type of case/overlay (removable, of course) over the two edges (top/bottom) of the screen could add buttons).

3.) When someone posted the specs of the PSP above, I had to check. The PSP has 32 Mb (64 for the PSP Slim) of internal memory and 4mb of DRAM. I'm not sure if the 32 Mb are storage or ram because it has the 4mb as well but with 128 Mb of ram and 8GB (compared to 32 MB plus removable media) or more of storage space, the iphone/touch will be able to play some powerful games, AND hold them all natively without really taking up much space. Heck, 8Gb could hold a few of all but the most powerful computer games, and according to its website, meets the specs for Windows XP (which I guess makes sense since its running some sort of version of OS X (but which one? does it count as tiger, leopord, or neither?)).
 
3.) When someone posted the specs of the PSP above, I had to check. The PSP has 32 Mb (64 for the PSP Slim) of internal memory and 4mb of DRAM. I'm not sure if the 32 Mb are storage or ram because it has the 4mb as well but with 128 Mb of ram and 8GB (compared to 32 MB plus removable media) or more of storage space, the iphone/touch will be able to play some powerful games, AND hold them all natively without really taking up much space. Heck, 8Gb could hold a few of all but the most powerful computer games, and according to its website, meets the specs for Windows XP (which I guess makes sense since its running some sort of version of OS X (but which one? does it count as tiger, leopord, or neither?)).

The new PSP has 64MB of main RAM (like how the 360 has 512MB) and 4MB of eDRAM (like how the 360 has 10MB of eDRAM). The eDRAM is a framebuffer, it is much much faster than all the RAM the iPhone has (especially since it doesn't have eDRAM at all). The iPhone has the space for some games, that isn't an issue.

But when compared to the PSP, think of it as a Dreamcast lite versus a PS2, this is due to the iPhone using the MBX lite and not a full MBX (the MBX is about as powerful as PowerVR Series 2 [clock 4 clock] which is what is used in the Dreamcast, and the MBX lite is half a MBX).
 
Consider it this way. The Nintendo DS and the Sony PSP are both 3+ years old. Developers have already pushed both systems to their graphical limit, as well as both devices are dedicated gaming systems. Both of them had an edge on eachother, for example one has dual screens and touch input, while the other has multiple usages (movies/ music/ internet). Only problem with the PSP was the cumbersome UMD that never took off in regards to the music sector as supposibly planned (sony wanted their record label to issue music on UMDs), mainly because it was EXTREMELY propreitatry.

The iphone at the moment is at heart a cellphone/ ipod/ internet device. These three features are the sole reason why people pay so much for an unsubsizdized phone with a 2 year contract. People have issued early cancellation on other carriers including at&t just to get a piece of that new technology. For some, it costed them a large amount of money (For instance I have three friends in Canada that broke their iphones in one way or another, 200+ repair fee on all of them + paying to jailbreak/ unlock + overtheborder taxes).

At the moment my opinion of the gaming market on the iphone is just a test too see how developers take it to their advantage. The iphone costs alot more than any other system (touch starting at $300), also the risk of not having any exclusive or rock hard games. It might take a while for developers to truly grasp the usage of accelerometer/ touch control for their games, since as noted it would detract the user from viewing the game (tilting the screen/ touching the screen to play the game), but I am sure that if it takes off, it would be huge. Prices will go lower, and the iphone will capture a whole new market of people that can now justify paying for one.

The reason I want an iphone is because I sold my ipod video to afford my macbook. Now that I don't have a music device I am looking towards purchasing one. I also need a new phone so why not justify paying more and killing two birds with one stone. The gaming market is just a HUGE plus for me, as well as the wifi internet.

The only issue I see with the gaming market on the iphone is those damn jailbreakers :rolleyes: Since they already cracked iphone 2.0 within the first few days of it released to developers :eek:, as well as cracked the games on the ipod video, whos to say they won't find a way to make all those 40 dollar plus games for the iphone free as well. The worst part though is since the nintendo ds and psp had their own properitary formats for playing videogames, it helped aid against software piracy. But since the iphone has a large community of people hacking it, it might scare developers thinking they would lose millions of dollars (FYI it would be much easier to get free games on the iphone than on the 360/ PS3 and whathaveyou. This would make developers reconsider releasing rocksolid exclusives onto the iphone, and make the phone, once again, only a phone (with added extras). So, even though statistcally the iphone is a greater performer in gaming than the REAL gaming systems, it would never catch on, unless apple releases an uncrackable firmware, but we know that won't ever happen, we're just too good :rolleyes: (and by me I mean the hacking community ;))
 
<snip> FYI it would be much easier to get free games on the iphone than on the 360/ PS3 and whathaveyou. <snip> So, even though statistcally the iphone is a greater performer in gaming than the REAL gaming systems, <snip>

hmm, XNA says hi!

Curious as to how the iPhone a better gaming system than the PSP?
 
hmm, XNA says hi!

Curious as to how the iPhone a better gaming system than the PSP?

Obviously the iphone is not a better gaming system than the PSP or the DS, since it has no games on it yet, but it has alot of potential due to its capability.

Think about how much hype the wii had for it's new innovated controler that no other system had to date. It was new, and it brought all sorts of ideas of how gamers can interact with the games in a whole new way (retracting your hand to reload a shotgun/ waving your arm to mimmick a sword).
Now think about the DS for a minute. For the first time ever, people were able to interact with their games by the use of touching. This was great for many games (brain age for example), plus it had the added bonus of creating new buttons on the bottom screen that have images that represent the actions behind it (simlar to the Optimus Maximus keyboard, and now the iPhone).

Now. Put these two great innovative features on the two nintendo systems that didn't have the greatest graphical capability, but made up for it for this very reason, and what do you get? Possibilty. The iphone can open so many doors in terms of how games are played, only if apple sets their cards right. Funny how nobody considered the iphone to be a gaming console.
And what's amazing, is how apple said the iphone is different than any other phone, because since it has a giant screen and touch controls, you can update it by the use of software, not replacing it annually.
The iphone was announced a year and 3 months ago, and developers just now started creating games for it. Steve Jobs knew what he was doing all along. Sounds like an apple fanboy, but its completely true. Consider the Macbook Air. Everybody said it was garbage since it only had one USB port, no replacable battery etc etc. People said the macbook air only suits a small market of people, but so many love it so much, that they got past these compromises, and got around the way they get their work done just to grab their very own.

Like I said, Jailbreak could finally become Apples greatest threat in the gaming sector.
 
the iphone has very decent fillrate for its output resolution: powervr MBX lite is spec-rated at ~135 MPixels/s (best-case scenario), and per resolution of 480x320 = 153.6K pixels that yields an overdraw of 15 @ 60fps, or 30 @ 30fps. and that's before we factor in powervr's deferred rendering which is a massive booster at opaque overdrawing, easilly introducing a factor of x2-3 to the above numbers. for comparison, the ps2 which was the fillrate king among the home consoles last gen (and still is a formidable player) yields 1.2 GPixels/s (best-case single-textured) fillrate / 307200 Pixels = overdraw of 65 @ 60fps, or 130 @ 30fps.

what the iphone clearly lacks, though, is vertex crunching power, as the powervr MBX series does not have built-in vertex-processing facilities, instead relying on a dedicated co-processor (imagination's VGP unit), which part is absent from the iphone. as a result iphone's ARM cpu has to do all the vertex work, which, (a) it can never do as quick as a dedicated part, and (b) cpu cycles that could've been used elsewhere will be spent doing TnL work.

when it comes to 3d content, expect games with nice IQ (i.e. of adequate color depth, good shading and multi-texturing) and rather low polycount as vertices will be expensive on this platform. then again, the dreamcast "suffered from the same ailment", and it still managed to produce landmark visuals, so i would not be overly concerned about that.
 
Someone mentioned cost of the iPhone or Touch.

There's also the relative fragility with the glass front. Treat it like a Wii controller and there's going to be a lot of broken screens from being accidentally thrown. That's an expensive replacement.

Also, Apple already denies dead touchscreen warranty work if the phone is jailbroke or has dents. One can almost imagine them doing the same if it contains wild action games that use the accelerometer :)
 
How awesome would it be if we could attach an external gaming controller to the iPhone through the bottom connector port?

Who else thinks trying to play NES or SNES on the iPhone i just horrible without real controls?
 
How awesome would it be if we could attach an external gaming controller to the iPhone through the bottom connector port?

Who else thinks trying to play NES or SNES on the iPhone i just horrible without real controls?

Sigh while it might be cool what the point? Honestly you can play SNES and NES games on your PC or Gametap, or Nintendo Wii whatever im not looking for what we already have.

The Iphone demands NEW games new styles, new genre's etc.. DO NOT EXPECT GOD OF WAR type games on the Iphone it just is not going to happen at least on the Iphone 1.

Expect games like SUper Monkey Balls, expect some Some Racing games, expect some turn based games, and some Puzzle games for sure. Just do not go thinking we are going to get Final Fantasy games, Halo, or Devil May cry games on the Iphone... Lets set our sites a little lower and enjoy whatever games we will get..

I would expect almost the same types of games the DS is getting we will have.. Brain Training games, etc...
 
I've got to give major kudos to those with technical knowledge demonstrated by some of the above posts (while I'm sure a couple are just speaking way over their level of knowledge, lets just acknowledge all the talent of this forum).

If, as one poster noted, the iPhone won't have the graphics crunching specs like the PSP, then games like Super Monkey Ball will be perfect. Super Monkey Ball for the Wii, and now the iphone...
---which is the portable Wii.
---The PSP can be the PS2 equivilent (ummm, is a macbok the PS3 equivilent in terms of power, the ps3 IS a supercomputer).
----And the DS can just sell a ton of itself.
---(Poor microsoft, but I'm not buying any games for whatever mobile platform they put out: Windows Mobile Bowling, Vista Puzzle- driver maze, G(r)eeks vs. trojans, umbrellaphone because Redmond is near Seattle, et.c)


Don't forget Google, which will come up with an open source program big enough to swallow us all, and we'll accept it because their services are just so great.


I think that the ultimate test will be to run Crysis. Get a 16Gb ipod touch and a huge memory card for the PSP, and then see who can do the fastest framerates. I'm guessing at high as 50 or 60 for the iphone and PSP. That's 50 or 60 sfp (not fps) seconds per frame, so If your a tortoise or live in a time vortex, it might be great (not to defame tortoises, they're wonderful).

Some games you could play, however. Even the NEWEST version of Duke Nukem would probably/certainly work on the iphone (Duke Nukem 3d, still fun to play). Looking at screenshots of PSPs, I wouldn't be suprized if a less graphics intense and less of a viewing area (the screens are much smaller) allowed for World of Warcraft to be played on the iPhone (its not a console, right?, but a type of computer).
 
Two clock cycles are needed to draw one pixel with MBX Lite, I believe.

Imgtec usually quotes comparative "effective" fillrate figures which account for depth complexities around 2.5.
 
Two clock cycles are needed to draw one pixel with MBX Lite, I believe.

Imgtec usually quotes comparative "effective" fillrate figures which account for depth complexities around 2.5.

you too got the touch bug? : )
 
Yeah; got the phone. Needed a pocketable Internet.

The responsive touch interface -- pinching, double tapping, swiping, etc -- and the relatively clever keyboard make mobile productivity more than just a novelty for once. The browser is powerful, and the OS seems quite sound.
 
Yeah; got the phone. Needed a pocketable Internet.

The responsive touch interface -- pinching, double tapping, swiping, etc -- and the relatively clever keyboard make mobile productivity more than just a novelty for once. The browser is powerful, and the OS seems quite sound.
same here. plus, i've been waiting for a platform like that for far too long. i wish apple would speed up opening the floodgate to the dev program.
 
Hello all,

While I, in no way, have the technical prowess of those who have already posted, I did want to add a small tidbit from this layman. I have had an iPhone since September, and recently purchased a PSP slim.

In my opinion, while both units have overlapping functions, such as internet, movies, and music, the two units are fundamentally different. Specifically, the iPhone does seem to be a more robust all-around device and, consequently, has to do a lot via its OS. As another poster pointed out, the iPhone is first and foremost a phone, to which I would add it is a productivity unit (calendar, contacts, notes, calculator, maps, etc.). The entertainment features of the iPhone, while fantastic, seem to me to be a secondary issue.

The PSP, on the other hand, seems to be first and foremost a gaming unit, with other types of entertainment as secondary (i.e. pictures, movies, music, etc.). To this end I have felt that the PSP is incredible, and I even remarked to my wife that I felt like the PSP was an XBOX 360 in my hands. As such the unit continually impresses me, especially titles such as Gods of War and WipEout. This my be trite, but graphics are important to me and I have been nothing but impressed, and continually so, with the abilities of the PSP.

In fact, the only way I could see the current PSP slim being even better was by adding a second joystick, muck like what you see on many contemporary gaming console's controllers. This issue is a point with me as I like the tactile feel of controllers and buttons, and I wonder how eleminating this (as it would be on the iPhone) would translate.

Of course, as noted by others, all of this is speculation until Apple introduces games for the iPhone, and we see how the the games evolve over time. If I had to speculate, I would agree with others who do not feel that the iPhone will challenge the PSP for gaming (as a note, I do not own a Nintendo DS, thus cannot speak there, but have owned a Nintendo SP. And, in my opinion, the PSP is far-and-away a better unit than the SP).

We shall see what transpires for Apple and the iPhone, yet I do not currently feel like I have wasted anything by investing in a dedicated gaming unit (i.e. the PSP) even though I had an iPhone as they are for different tasks for me.

Just my two cents.

Always...
 
When Ford rolled out his 1st horseless carriage, people asked "where are the reins?"

EXCELLENT response!

very very true.....


"How powerful is iPhone compared to PSP & DS?"

I think a better question is how long will it take for MacBook (all generations) and Mac mini owners to realize that the iPhone has a better GPU than their computers :rolleyes:

:( im sad now....
 
the thing is...

From my understanding of the MBX Lite, the PSP has the same or higher graphics capability. The PSP GPU runs at 166mhz while the MBXL runs at 100 (or so) in the iPhone. The PSP can output up to 33 million poly/sec while the iPhone can do around 7. Basically the iPhone is a mini dreamcast while the PSP is a mini PS2 (in terms of GPU ability)

You're actually incorrect.

While the clockspeed of the PSP "GPU" is above that of PowerVR MBX, the other specs you posted are absolutely misleading.

Can the PSP GPU pull off 33 million poly/sec? Yes. Same as the PS2 could pull of 75 million poly/sec.

By that I mean it's more Sony B.S. PS2 could never pull off that number in game, with all textures, lighting effects, etc. 75 million was just pie in the sky floating, textureless polys without light sources. Same deal with PSP's proported 33 million poly/sec spec. In game, it's far, far, far less.

PowerVR's solutions, on the other hand, were always downplayed, much like how Nintendo's estimates of Gamecube's power were downplayed. Imagination Technologies (or whatever the outfit is called now) bases their specs on what they think is actually do-able. Dreamcast was listed as being only able to push 2.5-3 million poly/sec in game, with all effects. There are quite a few Dreamcast games that push over twice that number (Test Drive Le Mans being one).

The MBX specs I've provided the link for list it as being able to push 10 million poly/sec. MBX-lite obviously pushes less, but those are still underestimates of what it could do in game.

. Apple really should have gone with the SGX, then they would have Gamecube/Wii levels of GPU power.

Eh...SGX is actually better than Wii and GC in one main area: Shaders. SGX can run pixel and vertex shaders 3.0. GC and Wii (and, no, both are not exactly the same...Wii isn't just a suped up GC, it's quite a lot more powerful) can only do Texture EnVironments (TEVs) which are shaders, but not as flexible as the one's used in XBox, 360, and, yes, SGX.

I know everyone is excited about the iPhone having great games, I am too, but I am not sure if every genre translates to multitouch and accelerometer very well. 2D platformers would be good, 3D platformers would be difficult. Sports games would be hard, as would 3D FPSes.

I agree, but I think 2D platformers wouldn't actually be that easy. Those games, like their 3D counterparts, require absolute precision controls (after all, don't want to miss the platform your jumping to, or slide off). Fighters also will not be on the platform. Sega'll make Monkey Ball and Sonic (but not the same Sonic that we see on home consoles), but they sure as heck won't be making an iPhone Virtua Fighter any time soon.

So you add a controller to the iPhone, well as people in the console world know, if it doesn't come in the box (or as a part of a game which you can't do on a digital download) it doesn't sell well. So you can't gaurantee that everyone will have the controller add-on so you really can't program for it exclusively otherwise you reduce your userbase thus reducing your $$.[/

*applauds

Exactly!

The thing about having just the motion and touch controls is that there are genres that simply won't be playable. Thus iPhone/iPod touch misses out on those. Will it get "new" genres? Probably not. Hasn't really been a new genre in very, very, very long. Most games now are still in established genres like RPG, action, adventure, action/adventure, sports, racing, etc. Having motion sensing and touch controls won't change that. Having just those inputs will lessen the types of game genres available, thus lessening, not increasing, scope and marketability. And just having those controls might force developers to think outside the box, but it'll actually force many more to think outside of the platform (that is, not even bother developing on Apple's little system).

Furthermore...the price point of the iPhone does not make it a mass market device to the level a game system should be. Best bet for Apple would be to strip it down a bit, maybe use SGX in there (rise in cost for GPU lessened by costs cut elsewhere), and put traditional controls on the device alongside the motion sensing and touch screen. That way, it's there for those that want to use it, and the traditional inputs there for those that don't. Best of all worlds, and thus a wider scope of games.

Keep TV out, though. SGX can even output HD, iirc. That'd be great, and, IMHO, a portable/home console hybrid is the future. Sizable niche can be carved with such a device.
 
I would shell a good 30 bucks out for an nes controller that works with teh iphone just to play the damn emulator, that **** would rock HARD.
 
Have any of you seen the following videos?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jWwickeEDtA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DICphyy_yxk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NNV_98SaRGk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_X_ff-WU3w
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bb3bP_4InPQ

If not please do it shows the iPhone simulates PSX and GBA, its really cool how they simulate a keypad using the touch screen and its a very good idea! It just show how the Iphone can simulate a normal D-PAD and buttons of regular consoles, now just add the accelerometer and the touch!

Games could dedicate a part of the screen to keys as the PSX emulator atleast for begginers to get used to or like the GBA a transparent keypad overlays the game and could easly be changed from a option menu...

And it will be flexible as imagine you could configure how the buttons will spaced apart and visualy move and resize them to how you like and feel comfortable with.
 
As a gaming device, the iPhone has potential, but it definitely has some problems. It'll be fun to see how it all plays out.

Probably the biggest problem is image: game developers see it as a phone, not a game machine. And phones have crappy little 2-minute casual games. Sega's the perfect example, they were expecting it to be exactly like every other cell phone, so they sent their cellphone developers to Apple, tried to port the cellphone version of Super Monkeyball - and had to send for new art to take advantage of the higher-res screen. As well, game developers think cell phones only need casual games for the most part - games that can be played in two minutes while waiting for something.

The second biggest problem is input. Virtual buttons (and d-pads) suck because there's no feedback to tell you if you are touching the right part of the screen without watching the button rather than the game - many DS games testify to that, the perfect examples being Mario 64 DS and Metroid Prime Hunters. And sure, the iPhone has multitouch, but it can't use a stylus, and requires enough of your finger/thumb on the screen to detect the touch that the touches will completely block whatever on the screen they are touching. The system has tilt input, but there's only so much that can do, especially when you're watching a small screen - flip it up to do something and you can't watch the screen until you are doneflipping. As well, as a phone, many people will be playing it while walking or riding the bus, places where you'll be naturally bumping the system around by accident.

Then there are the sales numbers, which are the key point that attracts developers to a game system in the first place. OK, as a cell phone, the iPhone seems to be a hit selling tons - Apple's goal is 10 million units sold by the end of 2008. But as a handheld game system, that's kinda mediocre. Check out the DS's 72 million systems sold, or the PSP's 34 million. And PSP was viewed as a failure until it hit around 20 million.
 
IMO, I don't think that Apple are targeting the PSP & DS(well, not initially anyway, lol).
I think their primary competition is Nokia and their NGage brand - which has recently had a revamp. I'm not sure what Nokia's distribution strategy is, but Apple can't really fail by having the AppStore front and centre on practically every device, rather than just on a website etc.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.