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Rofl. It's 2019 and this was your first live chat support experience?

Of course not. But this wasn’t an ordinary live chat experience. There was no queue. There was no webpage to navigate to first, or pop-up, or bad AI introduction. It was a text messaging experience, and that is a subtle but poignant difference.

No doubt Apple’s implementation works great and is well funded but...I honestly thought I should be reading this with sarcasm. Mocking the stereotypical Apple fanboy. Something that’s been ordinary for the last fifteen years is suddenly revolutionary when Apple does it.

See answer above - Comparing Apple’s implementation to 15 year old tech is laughable. Compare Apple’s live chat with other banks/credit cards - if they even have it in-app, let alone at all.
 
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...To be fair, bank support IS typically slow.

But chat support itself goes back for ages. It’s long been the primary form of customer service for many companies. One-to-one Telephone support obviously requires far more staff time and that’s why the phone lines are almost abandoned these days. It’s very unfortunate for elderly customers.
[doublepost=1566453078][/doublepost]“The future of all support” was the main trigger by the way.

It sounded as though you’d just discovered it.
 
Of course not. But this wasn’t an ordinary live chat experience. There was no queue. There was no webpage to navigate to first, or pop-up, or bad AI introduction. It was a text messaging experience, and that is a subtle but poignant difference.



See answer above - Comparing Apple’s implementation to 15 year old tech is laughable. Compare Apple’s live chat with other banks/credit cards - if they even have it in-app, let alone at all.
Many companies have had this feature on other messaging platforms, such as FB Messenger. Apple just decided to implement it in iMessage, too. It was revolutionary a while ago. Being able to do it via iMessage is just convenient.
 
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Many companies have had this feature on other messaging platforms, such as FB Messenger. Apple just decided to implement it in iMessage, too. It was revolutionary a while ago. Being able to do it via iMessage is just convenient.

Yeah fair enough, was a bit hyperbolic in my initial description.. I don’t use FB at all so I don’t have any experience with that side of it. Just comparing it with previous banking experiences where you can’t even email you have to do “secure messages” via their website and it takes 2-3 days for a response (and maybe more if they need more info from you).
 
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Fair enough. Sorry for the tease.

It is a joy to use a well implemented chat service and the use of iMessage sounds like a nice touch. I’ve used traditional chat support for a long time with online casinos. They certainly don’t want to leave punters stuck in a queue and the good ones are very quick. As you say though, banks are a completely different story, and the staff will need a lot more training too.
 
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Just did it. And objectively, they are right, it’s a pretty revolutionary experience.

Of course I’ve done chat with customer support before for other services, they work well. But this is different, way ahead normal support, even Apple’s support for other products.

Beside the ease of use because of iMessage, at 11:26pm I texted ‘ Hi, I’d like to opt out of Apple Card arbitration. ‘ by 11:27 after asking me for confirmation they replied ‘I have successfully opted you out of arbitration. May I assist you with anything else?’

Boom. 1 minute of my day. Never before with any other customer support have I ever reached out, got a reply, explained my problem, and got the support I needed all within 1 minute. Bravo Apple!
 
So Macrumors is suggesting that the consumer is better off fighting issues with a lawyer than going through arbitration, correct? You don’t think Goldman Sachs will have a high-powered lawyer when they are getting sued? Would love to know whose opinion this is that arbitration is bad for the consumer? Other than a lawyer

Arbitration circumvents your rights to a jury trial where the odds are in your favor. Also the cost of the lawyer does not equal win percentage. This has too long been used as a talking point of corporations to scare people into settling or going into arbitration.
 
I am a lawyer in England & Wales. I’d recommend opting out of arbitration for several reasons.

AppleMatt
 
Generally you are. First, arbiters - although most have been judges themselves - are privately paid services that the company you have a disagreement selects (they literally get to review a bunch of bios, basically resumes, and pick the one they want) and pays for.

As an arbitration neutral (we’re not called arbiters), I feel like there are some clarifications necessary here. First of all, the company will have a business arrangement with an arbitration service, but the payment is on a case by case basis and is paid for by BOTH parties. That’s right, just like regular court you have to pay to go to arbitration on top of paying your lawyer. You can argue that the fee should be paid by the other party if they lose, but the starting line is both parties pay.

And that means both parties get to pick their neutrals, too. A computer spits out a list of randomly picked neutrals, and the parties get to strike a few, and rank the rest. At the end of the case, all parties and the other neutrals on the panel review each other for things like fairness and professionalism, and those ratings along with case history are included.

Often the same arbiter will get repeat business with an organization; although no organization would go so far as to say "you'll rule in our favor if you want more engagements" there's likely some pressure felt by arbiters that want to continue booking to make the organization that picked them this time feel it's a good choice to come back.

Aside from the fact that neutrals are chosen by both parties (or more likely their lawyers), there is another huge problem with this line of thinking: arbitration can be overturned if you can prove bias on the part of the neutrals. It’s a major part of our training, especially the part where you have to disclose anything and everything that could lead to impartiality. Seriously, neutrals training is basically hearing the words “you must disclose this” a thousand times. Why? Because having an arbitration case overturned in court for bias is expensive for everyone, ruins the whole cost-saving point of the process in the first place, and destroys a neutral’s reputation if it was their fault.

Also, though a company may have repeat arbitration, the neutrals themselves are considered independent contractors and aren’t influenced by the company’s desire for repeat business (and they can’t affect how often your name is picked). If a neutral hears a case for the same company more than once, it would be both a statistical anomaly and something they would have to disclose at the start of the case. Such a disclosure would likely mean a bias challenge and the choosing of another neutral, assuming the neutral didn’t withdraw on their own as soon as the conflict was discovered (which frankly is easiest, and there’s no financial incentive to get that far and be removed because you don’t get paid unless you see the case through to the end).
 
So Macrumors is suggesting that the consumer is better off fighting issues with a lawyer than going through arbitration, correct? You don’t think Goldman Sachs will have a high-powered lawyer when they are getting sued? Would love to know whose opinion this is that arbitration is bad for the consumer? Other than a lawyer

Do you think the customer is better off facing an arbitrator Goldman Sachs selected and pays? I’d rather have a judge who at least pretends to be impartial.
 
As an arbitration neutral (we’re not called arbiters), I feel like there are some clarifications necessary here. First of all, the company will have a business arrangement with an arbitration service, but the payment is on a case by case basis and is paid for by BOTH parties. That’s right, just like regular court you have to pay to go to arbitration on top of paying your lawyer. You can argue that the fee should be paid by the other party if they lose, but the starting line is both parties pay.

And that means both parties get to pick their neutrals, too. A computer spits out a list of randomly picked neutrals, and the parties get to strike a few, and rank the rest. At the end of the case, all parties and the other neutrals on the panel review each other for things like fairness and professionalism, and those ratings along with case history are included.



Aside from the fact that neutrals are chosen by both parties (or more likely their lawyers), there is another huge problem with this line of thinking: arbitration can be overturned if you can prove bias on the part of the neutrals. It’s a major part of our training, especially the part where you have to disclose anything and everything that could lead to impartiality. Seriously, neutrals training is basically hearing the words “you must disclose this” a thousand times. Why? Because having an arbitration case overturned in court for bias is expensive for everyone, ruins the whole cost-saving point of the process in the first place, and destroys a neutral’s reputation if it was their fault.

Also, though a company may have repeat arbitration, the neutrals themselves are considered independent contractors and aren’t influenced by the company’s desire for repeat business (and they can’t affect how often your name is picked). If a neutral hears a case for the same company more than once, it would be both a statistical anomaly and something they would have to disclose at the start of the case. Such a disclosure would likely mean a bias challenge and the choosing of another neutral, assuming the neutral didn’t withdraw on their own as soon as the conflict was discovered (which frankly is easiest, and there’s no financial incentive to get that far and be removed because you don’t get paid unless you see the case through to the end).

Thank you for the clarifications. I've only been lightly involved in arbitration in the past, in both situations I received a stack of bios from the arbitration service (JAMS and CPR respectively). I gave my feedback and moved on. Good to have that additional background.
 
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As an arbitration neutral (we’re not called arbiters), I feel like there are some clarifications necessary here. First of all, the company will have a business arrangement with an arbitration service, but the payment is on a case by case basis and is paid for by BOTH parties. That’s right, just like regular court you have to pay to go to arbitration on top of paying your lawyer. You can argue that the fee should be paid by the other party if they lose, but the starting line is both parties pay.

And that means both parties get to pick their neutrals, too. A computer spits out a list of randomly picked neutrals, and the parties get to strike a few, and rank the rest. At the end of the case, all parties and the other neutrals on the panel review each other for things like fairness and professionalism, and those ratings along with case history are included.



Aside from the fact that neutrals are chosen by both parties (or more likely their lawyers), there is another huge problem with this line of thinking: arbitration can be overturned if you can prove bias on the part of the neutrals. It’s a major part of our training, especially the part where you have to disclose anything and everything that could lead to impartiality. Seriously, neutrals training is basically hearing the words “you must disclose this” a thousand times. Why? Because having an arbitration case overturned in court for bias is expensive for everyone, ruins the whole cost-saving point of the process in the first place, and destroys a neutral’s reputation if it was their fault.

Also, though a company may have repeat arbitration, the neutrals themselves are considered independent contractors and aren’t influenced by the company’s desire for repeat business (and they can’t affect how often your name is picked). If a neutral hears a case for the same company more than once, it would be both a statistical anomaly and something they would have to disclose at the start of the case. Such a disclosure would likely mean a bias challenge and the choosing of another neutral, assuming the neutral didn’t withdraw on their own as soon as the conflict was discovered (which frankly is easiest, and there’s no financial incentive to get that far and be removed because you don’t get paid unless you see the case through to the end).

What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
 
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What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

$600 per day. Well, $300 per half-day session. Cases average probably four half-day sessions, so that’s $1200 for two days’ work.

Well... two days’ work BUT, they don’t pay you for reading the case beforehand, which is required. And they don’t pay you for the work you do on evidentiary motions, scheduling, preliminary setup calls etc. which usually takes place over several months beforehand. Oh, and if they settle after you’ve spent months and many hours prepping for the case, you get a big fat nothing.

First year neutrals see about... 1 case a year, but it goes up as you gain experience. Five years in you might see... 2 cases a year!

Yeah, it’s not a real job by any means. But as a former lawyer it’s fun and I honestly feel like it’s an honor to serve in the process.

But that $1200? It doesn’t hurt.
 
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$600 per day. Well, $300 per half-day session. Cases average probably four half-day sessions, so that’s $1200 for two days’ work.

Well... two days’ work BUT, they don’t pay you for reading the case beforehand, which is required. And they don’t pay you for the work you do on evidentiary motions, scheduling, preliminary setup calls etc. which usually takes place over several months beforehand. Oh, and if they settle after you’ve spent months and many hours prepping for the case, you get a big fat nothing.

First year neutrals see about... 1 case a year, but it goes up as you gain experience. Five years in you might see... 2 cases a year!

Yeah, it’s not a real job by any means. But as a former lawyer it’s fun and I honestly feel like it’s an honor to serve in the process.

But that $1200? It doesn’t hurt.

So... lust for gold it is! ;)

That does seem like a nice and rewarding (in more ways than one) sideline.
 
For those that are shocked by the "sneakiness" or "how dare they" of this, many consumer contracts have arbitration clauses now (check your cell phone contract). Doesn't make it "right", but don't be so shocked at this instance. What makes Apple's different is it's so easy to opt out. Others may require certified mail.
 
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So Macrumors is suggesting that the consumer is better off fighting issues with a lawyer than going through arbitration, correct? You don’t think Goldman Sachs will have a high-powered lawyer when they are getting sued? Would love to know whose opinion this is that arbitration is bad for the consumer? Other than a lawyer

Have you heard of class action suits?
 
I’m pretty sure that you still have access to arbitration if you opt out of this clause. The difference is that not opting out removes access to the courts...
 
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So Macrumors is suggesting that the consumer is better off fighting issues with a lawyer than going through arbitration, correct? You don’t think Goldman Sachs will have a high-powered lawyer when they are getting sued? Would love to know whose opinion this is that arbitration is bad for the consumer? Other than a lawyer

Yes, it would be hard and expensive to sue Goldman Sachs. But you don't opt out then some Goldman Sachs employee (even if he is a contactor, he is paid by Goldman Sachs) gets to make a unilateral decision.
 
How is this procedure even legal in US, blows my mind. You are free to exercise your lawful freedom until you opt out to some private contract. By extension why is slavery even ilegal if one opts in some contract to accepts such terms?
 
I just opted out. It took literally 30 seconds. I have to say that so far Apple/Goldman are hitting it out of the park on this one. The application took less than 2 minutes to approval.
 
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