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If this is largely about multi touch, and pinching and using the gestures, I think HTC have the moral high ground, if not the legal one.

Multi touch shouldn't be patentable, it's a logical step in touch input, and it's too important a technology for restrictions to be placed on its use by classing it as IP. Maybe there's specific objections about it's deployed by Apple and now HTC, but there's only so many ways that touch input mechanisms can be designed. I mean, it's evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Oh FFS! If you hate Apple, just say it outright. Don't do this little dance for us.

First off, Apple isn't suing them for using multi-touch nor do they have a patent for multi-touch. They have patents for specific implementations of multi-touch on a specific type of device for a specific purpose. That is, for better or worse, fully worthy of a patent according to the patent system and Apple has obtained protection for their implementations and has decided to protect them. If either side has a legal high ground, it's Apple, like it or not.

Frankly, HTC has no legal ground to speak of if they have encroached on any of those patents, whether you or I or the guy down the street agree with it or not. That's how it works.

And discussing who has the "moral high ground" is a load of crap. There are hard-working people at Apple who have no doubt given a lot of their time and energy to help create the products that Apple puts on the market, and I can make just as valid an argument that the "moral high ground" requires management at Apple to defend that too.
 
You DO realise Apple bought the company Fingerworks? Which is where they got their multi-touch technology from.

So? Apple is entitled to continue patenting variations of the fingerworks research. Not that this lawsuit has anything to do with multitouch (it does not).
 

I know this is your opinion so I'm not bashing you for it, but I do have to respectfully disagree.

I've used HTC's phone(s), and Apple's iPhone, I really was not super impressed by the HTC offerings, sure it had multiTasking, and in some ways I liked the word suggestion thing (although it did take up a bit of the screen real-estate) in general I was not impressed with the responsiveness of the device, how settings were manages, and the overall feel if it.

Again, this is my opinion, I'm not bashing your's but I just thought I'f pipe in my thoughts.
 
So? Apple is entitled to continue patenting variations of the fingerworks research. Not that this lawsuit has anything to do with multitouch (it does not).

Did I say they aren't entitled to? I was replying to the original poster who made nieve comments that said "how come no one thought of it before Apple did?" I was just making it clear to that person that Apple isn't the be all and end all of multi-touch technology.
 
apple has histroy of copying/stealing other's ideas....

Coulda fooled me. Seems Apple's been really the only one to bring game-changing products to market over the past decade. Why aren't all these alleged victims capitalizing on their own ideas? What are they waiting for? Apple is one incredible thief - always taking ideas *just before* XYZ Tech Company brings their killer device to market! Amazing!

Hey, might as well hand over all tech patents to Apple so we could actually *use* some of these allegedly amazing things the competition has (but doesn't actually produce) before we're dead.
 
apple is a cry baby.....they know they will be killed by Big G in this decade..so they are just nervous .... Android market share is going up and iphone is going down...they didn't expect this to be happen that soon...
go fight with Big G.....Are u scared ..huh...Are u scared...if you are creative, let the industry copy you and move forward and create something new...thats called creativity...not fighting with a weak kid in the game...
 
That being said, US patent stuff is complete and utter *****... patent or no patent, they are awaking the wrong giants. I heard somewhere that MS, HTC, and Nokia have hundreds of patents that the iphone supposedly violates. I wish those companies would start calling apple out on their shenanigans.

So if HTC had hundreds of patents that the iPhone is supposedly violating, and their being sued for patent violation by Apple, why aren't they in turn suing Apple? Why isn't MS suing apple for the hundreds of patent violations?
 
Android looks more and more promising.

Apple seems to be making many enemies outside their walled garden.

Time to jump ship away from my Macbook Pro and iPhone before the inbreeding begins? Perhaps... if only the iPhone was not so... damn... slick.
 
apple is a cry baby.....they know they will be killed by Big G in this decade..so they are just nervous .... Android market share is going up and iphone is going down...they didn't expect this to be happen that soon...
go fight with Big G.....Are u scared ..huh...Are u scared...if you are creative, let the industry copy you and move forward and create something new...thats called creativity...not fighting with a weak kid in the game...

Sigh.

Google deserves better trolls than this. :rolleyes:
 
I wonder why Apple did not sue Plam when the Pre came out? Maybe it's because of all of the patents, Apple stole from Palm?
 
I recently purchased a google nexus one, and while I've seen a couple oddities in the software (nothing major at all), I wish I would have made the switch a long long long time ago...

You apple guys... stick with apple... they will come out with some new feature and you will be on top of the world able to show it off for about 2-3mo until a better phone comes out... and apple will still be sitting there with their thumbs up their butts

+1

I for one think that Apple is starting to get high off their recent success, and is about to start making some pretty stupid decisions down the pipe. History seems to be repeating its self.

I also just ordered the Nexus One in place of my iPhone. Looking forward to getting it later today :)
 
Did I say they aren't entitled to? I was replying to the original poster who made nieve comments that said "how come no one thought of it before Apple did?" I was just making it clear to that person that Apple isn't the be all and end all of multi-touch technology.

I see. Of course, his comments were less naive than you think, however. First, let's ignore the fact that this patent suit has nothing to do with multitouch. Assuming it did, there are two primary requirements for a patent. It has to be "novel" and it has to be "non obvious."

To prove that something is not novel, you have to find a single publication, product, or prior invention that has each and every element of the patent claim in it. If we limit ourselves to Apple's current multitouch patents (not involved in this suit), the claims of those patents are sufficiently narrow that it is unlikely anyone will find such a publication or product.

Obviousness is a more complicated test, but one thing the courts look at are the "Secondary Indicators of Nonobviousness." Among these factors are things like "commercial success" (iPhone has had a ton of that), "long felt need" (the inability of others to successfully commercialize a solution to the problem), etc.

Also, note that Apple's multitouch patents likely claim priority to various fingerworks patent applications (or are patents it bought when it bought fingerworks), so "how come no one thought of it before Apple" translates into "before Fingerworks." And before someone says "there was multitouch before fingerworks," that's not the point - Apple didn't patent multitouch. It patented specific implementations of multitouch, just like GM can patent a specific implementation of a carburetor even though it didn't invent the carburetor.
 
If this is largely about multi touch, and pinching and using the gestures, I think HTC have the moral high ground, if not the legal one.

Perhaps you should try reading the patents? Apple did not patent multitouch. They are suing HTC for violation of specific implementations.

For example, one of the patents involves using a horizontal swipe to unlock the phone. There are a zillion ways to potentially unlock a phone, but Apple was the first to use a horizontal swipe. HTC could have chosen to shake the phone to unlock, physical button, touch a button on the screen, touch multiple buttons on the screen, squeeze the phone, turn the phone upside down, lick a conductivity sensor, pass your hand over the phone, and many, many others. But HTC chose to use Apple's patented method.

I hope Apple will wake up finally and hope HTC will win this.
It will be very hard for HTC but let's see.

Competition is good but do it hardware/softwarewise and not patentwise.

Please explain why I should spend billions of dollars on R&D if there's nothing to stop the competition from copying my work?

I sort of agree. It's like patenting the wheel.

No, it's not. I'll wager you never read the patents. Apple patented specific implementations - which is what patent law is all about. Apple did not patent anything as broad as multitouch.


Would HTC be able to argue "we just built a dumb handset, it's Google's software that actually makes our phones multi-touch, go sue them"? Is it actually clear-cut who has (possibly) breached the patent?

They could argue that, but they'd lose. HTC is selling a phone which Apple says infringes its patents. If the court determines that the phone is infringing the patents, then HTC loses.

Now, HTC might have recourse against Google, but that would depend on what the license agreement says. In addition, if Apple wins against HTC, then they could go after Google as a contributory infringer, as well.

Competition is a good thing, I love my iPhone but would love other manufacturers force Apple to bring their A game on the next update. There hasn't been enough innovation since the 2G.

That's because the entire industry is spending their time copying Apple rather than inventing their own technologies. Apple is doing its share of innovation. Why aren't you attacking everyone else for not creating anything new?

Although I agree with Apple defending it's own IP, their actions do sometimes comes across as anti-competitive and stifling innovation. Go HTC! (But I'd still prefer an iPhone!)

It's really amazing how badly people distort the real issues here. Apple is innovating and wants to defend its innovations. How is that anti-competitive? How does it stifle innovation? If anything, it fosters innovation - since Apple is trying to force their competitors to come up with new ideas rather than just stealing Apple's innovations.

I am a software engineer by trade, so I'm directly involved with IP and new software concepts... some of which I've come up with.

That being said, US patent stuff is complete and utter *****... patent or no patent, they are awaking the wrong giants. I heard somewhere that MS, HTC, and Nokia have hundreds of patents that the iphone supposedly violates. I wish those companies would start calling apple out on their shenanigans.

I guess you've been asleep for the past year. Nokia is trying it, but Nokia is likely to lose because they're part of a consortium which guarantees reasonable and equitable licensing fees. Nokia is demanding more from Apple than from everyone else - which is a violation of the consortium terms. In fact, Nokia is now facing antitrust charges because they're illegally trying to use their patents to keep Apple out of the cell phone market (by demanding unreasonable and inequitable licensing terms).

MS has very little in the way of cell phone patents, btw. HTC has almost none. If they did, don't you think they'd have countersued Apple instead of releasing a press release saying "we're really nice guys and big, bad Apple is just a big meanie"?
 
For those who say HTC copied Apple, have you read which 20 patents Apple claimed HTC has infringed?
MULTI-TOUCH is NOT one of them
 
HTC is going to get nailed on at least a few key patents. Apple has all their ducks in a row on this one. This wasn't simply a snap-reaction from Cupertino. It was a long time in the making.

I think Apple has showed recently, they shoot from the hip.
 
I recently purchased a google nexus one, and while I've seen a couple oddities in the software (nothing major at all), I wish I would have made the switch a long long long time ago...

Given that the Nexus only came out in Jan 2010 that would have been a bit difficult. Unless you think that January to March constitutes a long, long, long time...
 
I hope Apple will wake up finally and hope HTC will win this.
It will be very hard for HTC but let's see.

Competition is good but do it hardware/softwarewise and not patentwise.

Why do people keep saying this ? In actuality, competition is only good for the consumer.

Business could be considered war and Apple / other companies have to use everything possible to win (including patents).

To think Apple and the other companies should be nice to each other is very naive and shows a lack of understanding of capitalism and business in general.
 
Their own innovations... which just happened to be released a few months after the iPhone! What are the chances! :eek:

HTC: Quietly Derivative (TM)

I wonder, are Windows forums rampant with Mac trolls too?

Doubtful. Microsoft fanbots harbor a very particular flavor of bitterness and self-loathing they feel compelled to spread to those who don't suffer from it.

Misery loves company.
 
I think Apple has showed recently, they shoot from the hip.

Based on what?

Apple has consistently demonstrated that they take legal action very seriously and think it through before pulling the trigger. It is extremely unlikely that this is a knee-jerk reaction.
 
this ain't about competition as you see it. This is about HTC riding the gravy train of Apple's patents. Allegedly. And Apple isn't competing with HTC, per se, cause HTC is copying them. Also Apple doesn't troll out new phones like every other week like HTC, LG etc. Apple has such game that they can just release one phone a year. That's Apple's A game baby. And if HTC was so bad a** lets see them drop just ONE new phone a year. Boooya!!!!

HTC can't compete with that business model, so I agree with you. The bigger issue is that no one has the Apple marketing team feeding the mindless sheep that'll buy Apple products no matter what limitations or shortcomings they have.

Not to bring up the dead horse, but how long was it before the iPhone had actual features other smartphones from HTC/RIMM/Samsung/etc had? And most of those phones didn't do so well mainly because of the hype that the iPhone had with it. It's a culture thing nothing more.

I wonder, are Windows forums rampant with Mac trolls too?

Yes actually, have you read the garbage Apple fans post on Engadget?

You DO realise Apple bought the company Fingerworks? Which is where they got their multi-touch technology from.

He/She doesn't, but multi-touch isn't on the table. I don't think many here actually care about reading up on how Apple is actually doing it's innovations. Apple is in essence taking the small things that are being left behind by other companies and making them useful. Not a bad idea at all, but not anything stunning.

The iPhone didn't have anything ahead of any other phone at the time besides the UI. Even now it's just the App Store that's keeping it ahead of the game and the UI has become a major disappointment now that most companies have done their usual, "Copy from Apple then make it better" routine.

Anyone buying an iPhone now are just riding the left-over marketing hype, listening to the sheep, or need those apps they can't get anywhere else.

I know this is your opinion so I'm not bashing you for it, but I do have to respectfully disagree.

That's nice, but anyone else would just simply . . . disagree. I've handled many an iPhone, and can't stand it or it's horrible wireless carrier in the US or the replacement price.

To get back on topic, I think HTC needs to be just a bit more innovative, they've got the backing of Google, who has the only OS paired with an app store big enough to really compete with Apple. With Google making the OS and HTC making the FAR better hardware why should they have to copy? It's just corporate laziness.

I hope HTC doesn't become the new Palm, waiting around for others to make tech it's going to copy.
 
For example, one of the patents involves using a horizontal swipe to unlock the phone. There are a zillion ways to potentially unlock a phone, but Apple was the first to use a horizontal swipe.

Not quite. As I've pointed out before, the Neonode N1 was using a horizontal swipe to unlock back in 2002.

The Apple patent is about moving a (optionally I think) visible object completely down a visible path in order to unlock.

(Which I personally consider obvious because if a boss came to a programmer and said "let's do an unlock swipe like the Neonode, but I want it incredibly obvious for the user to know what to do", then any programmer would've come up with the visible objects.)

HTC could have chosen (list removed). But HTC chose to use Apple's patented method.
The patent wasn't approved until a few weeks ago. Anyone in my profession would've thought it wouldn't be, either. Cmaier, what's the deal with violating pending patents in cases like this?

Re: Fingerworks. Their patents are about gestures on opaque objects such as keyboards.
 
Except the consumer.

Indeed. It seems the more enemies you're making (in competitors) shows you're doing everything right with consumers.

Yes actually, have you read the garbage Apple fans post on Engadget?

First, Engadget isn't a Windows users forum, so the comparison to MacRumors is moot.

Second, the anti-Apple rage on the Engadget comments section drowns out any pro-Apple commentary by orders of magnitude. These days pro-Apple comments are downranked to oblivion while anything anti-Apple (regardless of how witless or juvenile) or pro-Microsoft gets Highest Ranked. The Engadget comments section has been completely infested by the Apple Haters Brigade. Engadget even had to shut down the comments section temporarily when the iPad hate-on was in full swing.

Microsoft's astroturfing campaign has been on a noticeable uptick in the last year or so.
 
Based on what?

Apple has consistently demonstrated that they take legal action very seriously and think it through before pulling the trigger. It is extremely unlikely that this is a knee-jerk reaction.

When it comes to IP Apple as of lately has been a fire now, damage control later. Perfect example would be Apple v. Cisco, Apple v. Nokia, Apple v. Shenzhen Great Long Brother Industrial Co., etc. etc. etc. What people forget is Apple is new to the game. Companies have portfolios that span decades.
 
1. If you don't know what it's about, why are you commenting?

2. If multi-touch was a "logical" next step, I'm sure you can reference the many average engineers and interface professionals around the world who all developed substantially similar ideas at the same time...

Totally agree... Gestures are natural, the way they have been incorporated into an OS/IT solution is what is patented... Now: I disagree with most of the bloggers here. Apple has not been sleeping since second IPhone generation. Come on guys! The processes behind implementing a new concept are huge and complex, you cannot expect a company to provide updates constantly (just imagine the supply chain behind bringing all the vendors together, the management of the time line, sourcing the parts...). Some people here have been getting too much from Apple and now they want even more... Simply unrealistic!

My take is: everyone has copied the concept and Apple is right when it defends itself... As to what the outcome will be: they have lawyers and judges and they can even compromise before any court appearance... IO enjoy my Iphone every day and when i see my coworkers with their Blackberries, I feel happy that I have the Iphone OS and the functionalities...

And by the way: anyone noticed that MS will not bring cut/paste in their new Phone series upon launch? Reminds me of the Apple bashing a year or so ago... Now: where all the PC lovers who were criticizing Apple for not implementing "such a simple / trivial feature"? They are a joke...
 
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