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Hundreds of Apple Employees Working On Apple-Branded Electric Vehicle
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Net profit in high end cars, 10-18%, gross margins 25-30%. That doesn't sound so bad hey! Not sure were you get low margins. 8 car companies are in the top 100 of worlwide companies, 5 in the top 50. Its one of the most lucrative business to be in, about on par with high tech.
The most lucrative being oil and gas and financials (60% of all companies in the top 100 are in those fields). Other lucrative fields in the top 100, Telecoms, business tech (Oracle, Cisco, IBM, Windows, etc), Heavy Tech & TRansportation (Boeing, GE,Siemens) Big Pharma (Merck, Fyser, Roche)
Business & Heavy tech is very very entrenched and needs ton of IP. Apple is working at it Business through IBM.
Most other fields are even more out into left fields than going into cars. Only financials remotely would make sense if they actually would loan people money to buy their phones in countries were it is not rolled into the price of the service. But, other than that I don't see them going there.
I hope it's a false rumour. I would like them put more effort in their current products line. A faster refresh cycle for their products (mini, cinema display,..) and update their softwares. A few years back you would see annual refresh of iWorks and iLife, now they seems to let go a lot of things. It's too bad they are doing so good, they don't have any pressure to fix that.
With all that money I think Apple could start a different division that has no relation to current iDevices. Be it a car or microwave oven. If you take away the iPhone how much is Apple really worth? What if Apple releases iPhone duds year after year? There are no guarantees in this business. They could very well have a Samsung year. The tech game is very unpredictable.
Can't expect that Apple will have knock out years each and every time.
If I had to guess it is more likely Apple is developing technology to go into a car rather than a car itself. they could build the electronics and perhaps a power train they could then sell to other manufacturers. Talking with high end contract manufacturers could mean they want to see the viability of supplying such components for others to use in their cars rater than seeing if they could build their own car. that's not to say Apple couldn't or won't do that but there are a lot of ways this could play out.
As for the minivan, that is a good platform to test out designs, primarily because there is lots of space for components as well as test gear. You don't have to worry about shoehorning components into tight spaces and finding room for test gear to record performance. Years ago I work dat a pace that was developing electric car technology and they used vans for that reason.
As for the minivan, that is a good platform to test out designs, primarily because there is lots of space for components as well as test gear. You don't have to worry about shoehorning components into tight spaces and finding room for test gear to record performance. Years ago I work dat a pace that was developing electric car technology and they used vans for that reason.
Spot on about the profit margin. Apple doesn't like thin margins.
Nope Peace is not kidding. You just neglected to properly read what he wrote. Profit and profit margin are not the same thing. The automotive industry has historically thin profit margins. Do you really think Apple wants to get into an industry that averages 12% gross profit margin and 3.5% net profit margin?
Heck, the industry darling Tesla has the highest margins, around 29%. They lost $300 million last year. Every dime they made had to go back into the business and it still wasn't enough. The automotive industry is a massive money suck that requires constant feeding. Apple has a crap ton money, but I seriously don't think they want that crap ton to shrink to a ton.
The problem with high end cars is you need a dealership network to support them. If you want to compete with Porsche and BMW you need a dealer network that can support and sell your vehicles and that requires people who will invest millions in building dealerships. To get that you need to show them they will make money. Being a new guy, even with Apple's name, will make it a tough sell.
If you go really high end against Ferrari, Panos, McLaren, Bugatti you don't need as broad a network but bow you are competing in a market where name is as important as performance. Apple could no doubt sell some but will they build a fanbase like some of the famous marques?
Why is this such a stretch?
I don't think anyone's really provided a valid reason why Apple can't build a car.
1. Its a low margin business -> So was the phone business, music player business, and the computer business. All are small margin businesses today yet Apple is very successful in each. Premium cars are not low margin.
2. It's not their "business" -> So what is exactly? They are a product company, notice it's not called "Apple Computer" but just "Apple". Was the iPod business their business? How about the iPhone? They were a computer company after all. You have to look no further than Steve's and Tim's cooks, "we enter businesses in which we can make a meaningful change." They are a product company, what is a car?
3. They should just buy Tesla -> Why? Their market cap is absolutely insane! Why spend that kind of money when you can re-engineer it yourself for a tenth of the price? Tesla's patents are free! Tesla has struggled with manufacturing and hitting targets, they just missed their delivery target when they reported last week. Musk said he's probably stepping down once Model X comes out. Apple has the resources, and the manufacturing experience to outshine Tesla in this regard. As for the engineers, they'll come aboard once the see the product, and according to the article they already have a 100 or so.
4. They have no infrastructure to sell it -> Now that Tesla has paved the way, they can sell them in their stores. But a more likely scenario is partnering with a car company/dealerships. Think Apple Pay, Apple didn't circumvent the Credit Card companies, or the banks, or the retailers but rather partnered with them and provided a bonus (security). Why is it such a stretch to think Apple wouldn't do the same here?
The car business is ripe for change! Why do I have to drive to a dealership to check a warning light and pay $100? Why can't this be displayed on my phone with a complete explanation? I can provide many more examples where technology change the way we interact with our car. I for one hope they do produce a car, and I look forward to see how it impacts all other companies.
The real question is, will MS, Google, and Samsung build a car now too?
I don't think anyone's really provided a valid reason why Apple can't build a car.
1. Its a low margin business -> So was the phone business, music player business, and the computer business. All are small margin businesses today yet Apple is very successful in each. Premium cars are not low margin.
2. It's not their "business" -> So what is exactly? They are a product company, notice it's not called "Apple Computer" but just "Apple". Was the iPod business their business? How about the iPhone? They were a computer company after all. You have to look no further than Steve's and Tim's cooks, "we enter businesses in which we can make a meaningful change." They are a product company, what is a car?
3. They should just buy Tesla -> Why? Their market cap is absolutely insane! Why spend that kind of money when you can re-engineer it yourself for a tenth of the price? Tesla's patents are free! Tesla has struggled with manufacturing and hitting targets, they just missed their delivery target when they reported last week. Musk said he's probably stepping down once Model X comes out. Apple has the resources, and the manufacturing experience to outshine Tesla in this regard. As for the engineers, they'll come aboard once the see the product, and according to the article they already have a 100 or so.
4. They have no infrastructure to sell it -> Now that Tesla has paved the way, they can sell them in their stores. But a more likely scenario is partnering with a car company/dealerships. Think Apple Pay, Apple didn't circumvent the Credit Card companies, or the banks, or the retailers but rather partnered with them and provided a bonus (security). Why is it such a stretch to think Apple wouldn't do the same here?
The car business is ripe for change! Why do I have to drive to a dealership to check a warning light and pay $100? Why can't this be displayed on my phone with a complete explanation? I can provide many more examples where technology change the way we interact with our car. I for one hope they do produce a car, and I look forward to see how it impacts all other companies.
The real question is, will MS, Google, and Samsung build a car now too?
There is big difference between 2006/07 smartphone business and the luxury car market nowadays!
I remember very well in 2006 all the smartphones were just crap and totally NOT user-friendly. Back in those days we had Palm (where is that company), Nokia Communicator, SonyEricsson and Windows CE powered devices (by HTC and others) which could only be operated by a stylus pen.
Even the normal phones were just garbage and even though my phone contract expired and I could get a new phone for free (by renewing my contract), I wasn't interested in any of the phones on the market... UNTILL Apple got it right with the iphone and build a proper phone with multi-touch and a user friendly interface.
Look at the car business nowadays, there are loads of crappy and cheap cars out there, BUT there are also fantastic and satisfying cars out there. If you have a chance to drive a brand new BMW these days, you will not step out of the car and think "jeez, what a piece of crap".
Secondly the car business is very diverse, you cannot satisfy your customers with just one model, you need multiple models (something that apple doesn't do). You cannot just build a minivan and thats it, the customers have different needs!
Completely different environment then consumer electronics!
Hydrogen is the answer and much more environmentally friendly. With all the electric cars from now, we will end up with huge amount of toxic waste due to batteries in 10-20 years!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXnnlQGcOXI
Your list is wrong! I was talking about a mass-market contract manufacturer. Right now Magna-Steyr are building:
- Mercedes-Benz G-Class
- Peugeot RCZ
- Mini Countryman (production will end 2016)
- Mini Paceman (production will end 2016)
All the other cars you listed were not build the way you make it sound, for example the merc e-class, only the 4-matic version was final assembled at Magna Steyr. The emphasis lies on FINAL ASSEMBLED!!!
Magna Steyr mainly produces niche car models that are too expensive too build at the manufacturer itself. They are also famous for building and designing unique, prototype, show and concept cars.
Bottomline is, if Apple has ambitions to compete on a global scale with companies like BMW or Mercedes, they need their own manufacturing and supply chain facilities all over the world and have 50K to 100K employees just in their car business!
This sounds sooo idiotic and stupid! Apple with all its cash and resources cannot even update the AppleTV for 4 years!!!
The AppleTV would have so much more potential... Put some great computing power in it (A9), put a damn appstore on it and let it compete head-to-head with the xbox and playstation and next to that have a fantastic home entertainment solution that everybody already loves.
There are other products that could also use more love and attention by apple, the appletv is just one example!
Apple makes its bread and butter with consumer electronics and should stick with that otherwise they will lose out in the longterm... Building cars *shaking head*
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I totally agree with you and the 35K number is right, I also posted that in another post.
What I meant was, that the Tesla is mass appealing, which doesn't mean that it is sold in masses, but that it in theory could work for the masses!
I'm not the biggest fan of the model S either, but its a fairly practical car that fits 4 people inside and some luggage.
If you compare that to the roadster, its difference between night and day.
ER Nope actually
Once upon a time you would have said that before Apple got into the online Music Business.
Once upon a time you would have said that before Apple got into the Phone business
Once upon a time you would have said that before Apple got into the Watch business.
apple is not a niche company making only 1 particular item, they can make whatever they decide to and whatever they think will sell or what people want
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I doubt that Apple would sell a minivan (if at the rumours are true) because it does not look cool or sexy.
Once upon a time you would have said that before Apple got into the online Music Business.
Once upon a time you would have said that before Apple got into the Phone business
Once upon a time you would have said that before Apple got into the Watch business.
apple is not a niche company making only 1 particular item, they can make whatever they decide to and whatever they think will sell or what people want
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I doubt that Apple would sell a minivan (if at the rumours are true) because it does not look cool or sexy.
Considering the fact that you are so negative and so cheap, you probably will never..
Considering the fact that you are so negative and so cheap, you probably will never ever afford it. Well, at least you can watch others enjoy it, right?
Considering the fact that you are so negative and so cheap, you probably will never ever afford it. Well, at least you can watch others enjoy it, right?
ERM You are Wrong !
Erm Apple DID try to do some sort of deal with Tesla recently. over what we do to know but they could have been trying to buy Tesla and for whatever reason Elon Musk said no.
Just because Apple may have tried to buy a company it does not mean they will be successful does it because the company can say no!
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Apple recently DID try to do a deal with Tesla to buy or merge etc and it failed.
Erm Apple DID try to do some sort of deal with Tesla recently. over what we do to know but they could have been trying to buy Tesla and for whatever reason Elon Musk said no.
Just because Apple may have tried to buy a company it does not mean they will be successful does it because the company can say no!
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Apple recently DID try to do a deal with Tesla to buy or merge etc and it failed.
They don't need to
Apple don't need to make a profit on it for one thing, they have enough money at the moment and could sell it at a loss just as a Publicity stunt or as a coup over Google etc.
Or then again they could make a profit on it, This is Apple remember and they are good at making profits and vast ones...Remember recently when they made the most profit in a quarter EVER!
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Rem actually the WSJ did do some research, they found that the Former Mercedes Benz Guy as well as former Ford guy hold senior posts at Apple
Apple don't need to make a profit on it for one thing, they have enough money at the moment and could sell it at a loss just as a Publicity stunt or as a coup over Google etc.
Or then again they could make a profit on it, This is Apple remember and they are good at making profits and vast ones...Remember recently when they made the most profit in a quarter EVER!
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Rem actually the WSJ did do some research, they found that the Former Mercedes Benz Guy as well as former Ford guy hold senior posts at Apple
Sounds plausible. What other growth industries are available that would ever make a difference to a company as big as apple's bottom line?
Financial services? ->apple pay
Chemicals/petroleum? ->tough sell for the brand image
Food? Maybe but look at the problems the big food companies are having.
Car companies are making record profits, there is room for innovation and its a big market.
This is one of the most obvious places for apple to at least explore expansion.
Financial services? ->apple pay
Chemicals/petroleum? ->tough sell for the brand image
Food? Maybe but look at the problems the big food companies are having.
Car companies are making record profits, there is room for innovation and its a big market.
This is one of the most obvious places for apple to at least explore expansion.
LOL at your lack or imagination
No offence but that is what most people who get money do. They have no imagination of their own so they just buy what everyone else would..a Ferrari or a Lamborghini.
Personally I want a slice of the future with an amazing Electric Car such as the Tesla Model S P85D which beats a Ferrari 458 of the line as well as a Lamborghini Aventador.
Yes they eventually beat the Tesla but that's still not bad for an electric Car.
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Actually you would have said it was silly for Apple to get into the online Music business
You would have said it was silly for Apple to get into the Phone business
You would have said it was silly for Apple to get into the Watch business
so why would it be silly for Apple to get into the Car business?
Answer it would not!
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I agree with you
I think that while yes Tesla does have some challenges to overcome the Tesla Model S for instance is an awesome Car.
I mean the fact that you can use an App to warm or cool your Car before you even get into it is amazing as well as remotely open the Sun roof (if you have it) plus the fact that most if not all Tesla's recently got a performance upgrade with the recent Software push to the Cars.
The Tesla Model S P85D beat a Dodge Charger Hellcat in a drag race as well as a Nissan GTR.
pretty awesome for an electric Car
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It is a matter of opinion. You think that BMW or Mercedes are better but I think they are Dinosaurs in an ageing world of Carbon based fosil fuel powered Cars that are over priced and deliver very little in innovation unlike Tesla
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I totally agree
No offence but that is what most people who get money do. They have no imagination of their own so they just buy what everyone else would..a Ferrari or a Lamborghini.
Personally I want a slice of the future with an amazing Electric Car such as the Tesla Model S P85D which beats a Ferrari 458 of the line as well as a Lamborghini Aventador.
Yes they eventually beat the Tesla but that's still not bad for an electric Car.
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What scale? Apple would be starting from 0. They have scale on iPhones and iPads. Last I checked, cars aren't built on the same assembly lines.
Musk has to want to sell. I don't see that happening.
What are you talking about? Ford alone has assembly plants in 24 countries. GM has 25. You should really stick to topics of consumer electronics.
What makes you think Apple can build a better car than Tesla? or even Tata or even Yugo for that matter? This makes no sense. Expertise in consumer electronics is not transferable. It's totally okay to be a fan, but at least express it with a hint of realism.
For the record, I think the idea of Apple building a car is pretty silly. I doubt they would ever venture down that road.
Actually you would have said it was silly for Apple to get into the online Music business
You would have said it was silly for Apple to get into the Phone business
You would have said it was silly for Apple to get into the Watch business
so why would it be silly for Apple to get into the Car business?
Answer it would not!
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I agree with you
I think that while yes Tesla does have some challenges to overcome the Tesla Model S for instance is an awesome Car.
I mean the fact that you can use an App to warm or cool your Car before you even get into it is amazing as well as remotely open the Sun roof (if you have it) plus the fact that most if not all Tesla's recently got a performance upgrade with the recent Software push to the Cars.
The Tesla Model S P85D beat a Dodge Charger Hellcat in a drag race as well as a Nissan GTR.
pretty awesome for an electric Car
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It is a matter of opinion. You think that BMW or Mercedes are better but I think they are Dinosaurs in an ageing world of Carbon based fosil fuel powered Cars that are over priced and deliver very little in innovation unlike Tesla
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I totally agree
Not sure where you got those relatively high margin numbers. The low end in your numbers are the actual high end in the automotive industry. Take higher end car companies BMW, Audi, and Mercedes. For 2013, BMW's net margin was 10.5, Audi was 10.1, and Mercedes was 6.5. Cursory search didn't reveal the full year 2014 numbers.
Gross margins?
BMW 5yr avg 20%. High of 24 and low of 13.5
Mercedes avg 22%. High of 25 low of 20
Audi is in the VW numbers. Average 18%. High of 19.4 and low of 15.1
For perspective the net margins at the big three are 3.9 for Ford, 4.1 for GM, and 4.5 for Chrysler. Apple's net? 22%. Apple is next level when it comes to profits and margin; both gross and net. The car industry really has no place for next level. There's a big difference in the financial outlay from the consumer of an electronic device and a consumer of an automobile.
Erm ??
So you want the Government to hand out breaks to you and people like you who won't change and probably think that climate change is a myth and even when huge waves and storms crash through towns(Hurricane Sandy?) you still say "Huh it's all a load of rubbish" and expect those who care about the environment and wish to buy the best tech from an innovative firm such as Tesla to stop and buy some low end cheaper gas guzzling and antiquated fossil fuel powered under powered tech Car to make you happy and contented in you bubble of ignorance
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Who says they are starting from scratch? You and you are really that contacted aren't you!
Apple can be secretive if they so wish and they could have been doing this for a while going through the design stage and the regulation stage.
They might not even do it as Apple. They could do it through a shell firm where even the employees do not know that it is really Apple.
it is possible. Just because you wish it to be false does not mean it is so any more than I wish it to be true mean it is
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What will the big boys do once Oil starts to run out and go into decline..sooner than previously thought with the world's increasing demand and appetite for the black stuff.
Answer: sit and scratch their heads for a decade before deciding to still search for Oil because they refuse to change or embrace the future
So you want the Government to hand out breaks to you and people like you who won't change and probably think that climate change is a myth and even when huge waves and storms crash through towns(Hurricane Sandy?) you still say "Huh it's all a load of rubbish" and expect those who care about the environment and wish to buy the best tech from an innovative firm such as Tesla to stop and buy some low end cheaper gas guzzling and antiquated fossil fuel powered under powered tech Car to make you happy and contented in you bubble of ignorance
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Who says they are starting from scratch? You and you are really that contacted aren't you!
Apple can be secretive if they so wish and they could have been doing this for a while going through the design stage and the regulation stage.
They might not even do it as Apple. They could do it through a shell firm where even the employees do not know that it is really Apple.
it is possible. Just because you wish it to be false does not mean it is so any more than I wish it to be true mean it is
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What will the big boys do once Oil starts to run out and go into decline..sooner than previously thought with the world's increasing demand and appetite for the black stuff.
Answer: sit and scratch their heads for a decade before deciding to still search for Oil because they refuse to change or embrace the future
Terrific post. Many of the people on this thread are too entrenched with the current state of things. Apple loves to move into areas where a little sprinkling of their fairy dust could dramatically change the game. Automobiles totally one of these areas. With Google rumored to also be developing a self driving car, I think it's safe to say that tech companies will be very involved in the auto industry soon. And it's ripe for disruption if you think about it. Electric is probably the wave of the future and Tesla has shown that their cars are just as much computer as they are car.
And If we assume that cars in 10 years will be able to drive themselves, then suddenly they transform from transportation mechanisms into a separate living and working space (meaning that your car now is a place where you spend most of your time doing things other than driving). That I'm sure will give way to many more new interfaces and modes of retrieving and interacting with data. Apple is wise to get started on this sort of thing. And I'm glad they're spending their time taking big leaps like this (if that's indeed what's happening), rather than simply trying to perfect the next iteration of the iPhone.
I see what you saying but think of it like this, Samsung releases product lines in response to others, i.e the S line is an iPhone competitor, the larger screen went for HTC and other Korean makers etc, their TV's were against Panasonic/Sony etc. They mimic an idea and take on that singular device. Heck I have 2 samsung kitchen appliances, better than what I had before. Good singular products.
Where Apple is different is ethos, compatibility amongst devices, in an industry where things are out of date on launch day they support devices for years and years and make them compatible too.
That's why 'a bad year' won't have the effect like it did on Samsung and does not happen for Apple - Ethos versus a singular product after product mentality. Samsung 'hit and hope', hence crazy numbers, sometimes good and sometimes bad! Growth cannot expand forever but that Apple mentality is a transferrable ethos than could transform established industries quite easily.
As for a car, well they have billions to spend, shaking up the automotive industry could be fun. If they started at battery and power efficiency technology first then the whole world will benefit in various ways - then they'll be branching in to all manner of industries.
Actually I would have said none of the things you attributed to me. I would say your leap in logic is pretty silly. All of those areas are in consumer electronics, Apple's bailiwick.
Online music business - iPod: Consumer electronics
Cellular communications - iPhone: Consumer electronics
Wearable tech -
watch - Consumer electronicsApple is a consumer electronics company. The automotive industry is not consumer electronics. Definitely not Apple's bailiwick. The auto industry has low profit margins. Apple doesn't and probably never will. The auto industry is heavily regulated by the gov't. That's why they have a huge lobbying arm. Apple traditionally shuns that route. Apple primarily sells low cost, high margin commodity items. The auto industry is about high cost, low margin items. There are a number of reasons why it doesn't make sense.
are you kidding me?
You say Low profit? really?? do you know how much firms such as Toyota can me in a year? over $18 billion..I don't call that low
Get a clue, get informed
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Actually Apple does have a fanbase..a HUGE one unlike any other company. More of a cult in some senses
Plus a firm like Tesla could and has struggled to get over the dealership issues but a firm as valuable and rich and as well know as Apple Can get round it and force the countries to change their laws
I.E Elon Musk as clever as he is goes to the president tog the United states Barrack Obama and says "Mr president please can you do something about the Law saying that I have to sell through dealerships" Yes that will get the president to change things.
Now imagine if Tim Cook goes to the president and asks the same thing. Far more likely some deal could be reached!
You say Low profit? really?? do you know how much firms such as Toyota can me in a year? over $18 billion..I don't call that low
Get a clue, get informed
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Actually Apple does have a fanbase..a HUGE one unlike any other company. More of a cult in some senses
Plus a firm like Tesla could and has struggled to get over the dealership issues but a firm as valuable and rich and as well know as Apple Can get round it and force the countries to change their laws
I.E Elon Musk as clever as he is goes to the president tog the United states Barrack Obama and says "Mr president please can you do something about the Law saying that I have to sell through dealerships" Yes that will get the president to change things.
Now imagine if Tim Cook goes to the president and asks the same thing. Far more likely some deal could be reached!
erm nope
Your logic is flawed actually. Your point about the Automotive industry being low profit margins. Not exactly but even if your correct you make the flawed point that Apple in this case would need to make a huge profit. They could do it for less profit because they are making so much money and so much profit it is now starting to hurt them.
they for instance can't shift most of their wealth on shore otherwise they get taxed.
They are making so much cash they can not spend it fast enough.
Now I am not saying they need to lose money..just that they do not need to make huge profits if they made a Car
Plus they can make what they want, yes it is not consumer Electronics but so what? It's their firm and they can stray from the 'norm' if so wished.
Anyways what do you call an electric Car..it could be classed as consumer electronics as it is pure electronics not mechanics.
I don't know if Apple are making a Car but if they are then so what? Give them a break and admit is not unlikely just because you can not get it.
My point about the Online music business and others is yes they are all consumer electronics but they were items people like you would have said they would not make because it is out of their remit or core business yet they did.
There are less and less New items to make in the consumer electronics business so why not go into a new area such as Cars(new for Apple that is)
Actually I would have said none of the things you attributed to me. I would say your leap in logic is pretty silly. All of those areas are in consumer electronics, Apple's bailiwick.
Online music business - iPod: Consumer electronics
Cellular communications - iPhone: Consumer electronics
Wearable tech -
Apple is a consumer electronics company. The automotive industry is not consumer electronics. Definitely not Apple's bailiwick. The auto industry has low profit margins. Apple doesn't and probably never will. The auto industry is heavily regulated by the gov't. That's why they have a huge lobbying arm. Apple traditionally shuns that route. Apple primarily sells low cost, high margin commodity items. The auto industry is about high cost, low margin items. There are a number of reasons why it doesn't make sense.
Your logic is flawed actually. Your point about the Automotive industry being low profit margins. Not exactly but even if your correct you make the flawed point that Apple in this case would need to make a huge profit. They could do it for less profit because they are making so much money and so much profit it is now starting to hurt them.
they for instance can't shift most of their wealth on shore otherwise they get taxed.
They are making so much cash they can not spend it fast enough.
Now I am not saying they need to lose money..just that they do not need to make huge profits if they made a Car
Plus they can make what they want, yes it is not consumer Electronics but so what? It's their firm and they can stray from the 'norm' if so wished.
Anyways what do you call an electric Car..it could be classed as consumer electronics as it is pure electronics not mechanics.
I don't know if Apple are making a Car but if they are then so what? Give them a break and admit is not unlikely just because you can not get it.
My point about the Online music business and others is yes they are all consumer electronics but they were items people like you would have said they would not make because it is out of their remit or core business yet they did.
There are less and less New items to make in the consumer electronics business so why not go into a new area such as Cars(new for Apple that is)