I can't do it -- Spend $2000+ on a laptop that can never be upgraded

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

It'll be the video capabilities that obsolete this thing for most people. 16 GBs RAM on purchase is a good idea for any professionals or power users (what on earth do you do?) but for the vast majority of people should be more than enough for the laptop's useful product lifespan (as least if you're in the market for a product of this price in the first place). The SSD will be upgradeable so that is not an issue.

So I'm not sure this is so different from other MacBook Pros as long as the proper RAM choice is made on initial purchase. It'll be the video capabilities in the end that push most users over to a new laptop.

Non-user-replaceable battery might lead to something like an extra $100 cost one day (on top of the normal cost of a replacement battery of this type) depending on how Apple handles it. Not sure that's worth losing sleep over either.

 

[panzer06]

I disagree respectfully.

The underlying issue is that not many people are bothered with upgrading their computers in the first place. So Apple was faced with a decision - do they allow the MBP to retain its upgradeability for the small fraction of people who *might* at the expense of size and weight, or remove this option and use the new-found space savings to introduce new features which they know every MBP user would appreciate, such as smaller footprint and longer battery life?

And they chose the latter. Yes, some will win, some will lose, but I believe that in general, people will gain more than they give up.

This is just not true. Macsales.com exists solely to provide upgrades for Apple systems. There's an entire ecosystem built around upgrades that could and would not exist were it not for large number of people who regularly upgrade their Macs. What we're seeing here is a continual push to stifle choice in the name of esthetics, style and perceived stability.

I salute the money making prowess of the company. The bit I quote below tells an impressive story. Just keep it a year a buy the next one. Sell your 12-15 month old system to someone who can't afford a new one. Certainly a recipe for financial success if I ever saw one.

Honestly, I plan on keeping the laptop for only 1-2 years, selling it and upgrading again. They hold their value so well that you really only loose out on a $200-300 a year. Just sold my 13" MBP after a 1.5 yrs for $1025 on eBay, bought it for $1100. Ended up with $900 after eBay fees and paypal fees (ridiculous). Anybody else upgrade yearly, they are very easy to sell, just keep it in excellent condition and you can get top dollar. It's the best way to keep your product updated yearly. I just think of it as renting a laptop for $200-300 yearly.

Hmmm, perhaps someone could make a nice living leasing these things to folks for 12 to 18 months and flipping them for the consumer at the end of the term.

Cheers,

 

[rockbird]

This is just not true. Macsales.com exists solely to provide upgrades for Apple systems. There's an entire ecosystem built around upgrades that could and would not exist were it not for large number of people who regularly upgrade their Macs. What we're seeing here is a continual push to stifle choice in the name of esthetics, style and perceived stability.

I salute the money making prowess of the company. The bit I quote below tells an impressive story. Just keep it a year a buy the next one. Sell your 12-15 month old system to someone who can't afford a new one. Certainly a recipe for financial success if I ever saw one.



Hmmm, perhaps someone could make a nice living leasing these things to folks for 12 to 18 months and flipping them for the consumer at the end of the term.

Cheers,

Even if the retina SSD becomes available for upgrade through OWC, you do know how much OWC will charge you right?

Right now, OWC charges $794.99 for a Mac Air 480GB(6G) SSD, and since the new retina has very similar SSD as Air, so we can assume it will be similar cost.

If you upgrade through apple, for $600 dollars, you get a 512GB SSD and a 2.6GHz i7.

I hope you can do the math.

 

[moonwalk]

The OP's point is well taken.

For years smart Mac owners have known not to buy RAM and drives from Apple, but to install better and more affordable alternatives from third parties. That advice is often given in this forum.

Seems like Apple has finally figured out how to force customers to buy these things from Apple at their premium. This is worrisome if in the future all laptops are made with everything soldered in.

We also know that often we can tweak our Macs with improved upgrades that Apple doesn't approve. This ability will be gone.

What will forums like this be in the future? Just a discussion of which soldiered on parts we've already bought?

 

[panzer06]

Even if the retina SSD becomes available for upgrade through OWC, you do know how much OWC will charge you right?

Right now, OWC charges $794.99 for a Mac Air 480GB(6G) SSD, and since the new retina has very similar SSD as Air, so we can assume it will be similar cost.

If you upgrade through apple, for $600 dollars, you get a 512GB SSD and a 2.6GHz i7.

I hope you can do the math.

Indeed I can and why do you suppose they charge so much? Because no one else makes a drive like that and there's only so much demand.

However, look at the rest of OWC's business. It's all upgrades for almost every Mac. If this trend continues you'll have no choice but to buy Apple's high priced RAM upgrade and drive upgrade because it's not financially viable for 3rd parties to bother.

My point was a simple one. There's a large community of users that prefers DIY upgrades. I understand the larger general public that is now enamored of all this Apple may not care but it would be nice if Apple continued to offer choices instead of forcing us all to buy the same locked down systems.

Cheers,

 

[avalys]

We also know that often we can tweak our Macs with improved upgrades that Apple doesn't approve. This ability will be gone.

What will forums like this be in the future? Just a discussion of which soldiered on parts we've already bought?

I don't know. Maybe you could talk about using your Macs to actually get work done.

I mean, how much flexibility do you have now on the Pro? You can upgrade the hard drive and the RAM. Whoopee. What customization.

 

[calderone]

My point was a simple one. There's a large community of users that prefers DIY upgrades. I understand the larger general public that is now enamored of all this Apple may not care but it would be nice if Apple continued to offer choices instead of forcing us all to buy the same locked down systems.

Cheers,

There are a number of MacBook Pros waiting for you at the Apple Store that offer the ability to upgrade.

Until they take them away, I really don't understand the whining. Don't like the Retina or Air? Don't buy them.

I don't know. Maybe you could talk about using your Macs to actually get work done.

I mean, how much flexibility do you have now on the Pro? You can upgrade the hard drive and the RAM. Whoopee. What customization.

Took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Seems like Apple has finally figured out how to force customers to buy these things from Apple at their premium. This is worrisome if in the future all laptops are made with everything soldered in.

I think you're misunderstanding Apple's position here. To achieve the engineering goals displayed in the new Retina MacBook Pro Apple had to make some proprietary decisions. And for the time being they're still offering the regular MacBook Pro line with somewhat typical laptop part accessibility.

To think that they're doing this to force people to pay part markups on RAM is absurd. It's all about the design, which is what matters most to the majority of customers purchasing this product.

That said, a typical MacBook Pro has two accessible upgrade parts, the storage system and memory, and some reasonably accessible service parts, such as the battery and AirPort card.

In this new MacBook Pro the memory is soldered but offered in 8 GB or 16 GB, which is more than enough memory for virtually everyone now or (I'm quite comfortable speculating) through the laptop's lifetime. The upgrade costs $200 which is, while a markup, quite reasonable. Certainly far more reasonable than Apple (and various OEM) RAM upgrade prices of yesteryear. The SSD cannot use the standard 2.5" form factor (designed simply to serve as a swap in for mobile mechanical hard drives) while retaining its dimensions, and upgrades will be available down the road from sources like OWC.

As for the other parts, the battery will be serviceable through Apple for what will probably be a reasonable fee (outside AppleCare) on top of the cost of what will probably be a comparably more expensive battery (no biggie if you're in the market for a machine like this) and the AirPort card (who cares?) remains accessible.

Advanced repairs will be more complicated but I'm not sure that particular matter deserves much attention.

If new standards are created (noting that Apple frequently champions such standards) to address some of these concerns (such as the need for slim slip-in SSD board) they may find their way into these products. As always, though, you can probably expect Apple to continue putting design and usability first.

 

[theSeb]

I can't afford a Veyron. I don't feel the need to justify myself to a bunch of anonymous strangers to make myself feel better.

Instead I am planning to rob a bank.

----------

You're not, but the masses here drink the Kool-Aid so let me point out your flaw: You were 'thinking' and that's is considered poor taste.

I posted a thread and replied to many others with the same thoughts as you but was drowned out by the howling of the fanboys.

I think Apple is a greedy, selfish company with the RMBP:

-Your RMBP cannot grow with you as a user. If you want more memory or a larger SSD later you are just out of luck.

-Putting memory on the LogicBoard was strictly a dick move by them. It serves no 'design' or 'engineering' purpose. They would fit perfectly in the current design.

-"WAIT! Apple redesigned the SSD to bring harmony to the planet!" Well, Apple DID redesign the SSD interface so they could lock others out of it. Way to go Apple!

-"WAIT! You can't fit SO-DIMMs and a normal SSD in the RMBP!!" - See my thread where I give you dimensions of each. They would fit.

-1440 x 900 may look great but it is still 1440 x 900. I'm barely happy with 1680 x 1050. "WAIT!! You can scale it out of 1440 x 900!" Yep, with a performance hit.


Sorry, I still think this is a bad upgrade deal from Apple...


-P

Priceless stuff.

----------

It'll be the video capabilities that obsolete this thing for most people. 16 GBs RAM on purchase is a good idea for any professionals or power users (what on earth do you do?) but for the vast majority of people should be more than enough for the laptop's useful product lifespan (as least if you're in the market for a product of this price in the first place). The SSD will be upgradeable so that is not an issue.

So I'm not sure this is so different from other MacBook Pros as long as the proper RAM choice is made on initial purchase. It'll be the video capabilities in the end that push most users over to a new laptop.

Non-user-replaceable battery might lead to something like an extra $100 cost one day (on top of the normal cost of a replacement battery of this type) depending on how Apple handles it. Not sure that's worth losing sleep over either.

Can't upgrade graphics? So it's just like any other laptop then.*

 

[joker35]

what if your ram/ssd dies?

Why doesn't anyone mention this possibility, which I believe is of utmost importance for professionals, especially when he/she is at a place/time that will not allow he/she to send it to apple for repair (for both professional and personal reasons)?

 

[jrouse]

I was in the SAME situation. I've needed a computer for months now. I sold my 07 MBP and had nothing but my iPad. Monday's keynote through me off. At first I was ready to pull the trigger on the Retina but I didn't. Don't get me wrong, I believe it is a beautiful computer and if I was rich I'd buy the max spec version and enjoy it, but in reality I'm not rich, but I do make decent money thanks to hard work. I'm also in school. I really thought about the differences of the regular Pro and the Retina Pro. The Retina MBP gives you a wonderful screen, a thinner design, and a faster solid state hard drive. The regular Pro gives you a bit more bang for the buck, more options, and the ability to customize later.

The past few days I've been following every thread I could find and since I've been off work, I spent my time checking various Apple stores to see if I could see the Retina on display. I saw it this morning, and to be honest, it is not as thin as I thought. It's definitely noticeable, but if you are looking for a portable laptop, I'd skip any 15" and go for a 13" or 11" MB Air. I then noticed the nice screen. Yes, it is amazing, but I liked my screen on my 2007 Pro, and the new regular Pros look great. Finally there was the Flash hard drive. I noticed it did boot up the computer quicker, but it was minimal.

I quickly realized that both the regular Pro and Retina Pro are top of the line machines and you cannot go wrong either way. Personally, I like to upgrade my computer down the road. As SSD storage goes down in price, maybe I'll pick one up in a year or so. Same with RAM, if I need to go to 16gb I will. I decided to stick with the regular Pro. The Retina is a great idea but it is new, it is impossible to work on/change parts, and the regular Pro is still a powerful beastly computer. I decided on the regular Pro with the mindset that in a year or so I can either upgrade the storage/RAM if needed, or wait until a 2nd or 3rd gen Retain MBP and sell this one to upgrade at that time. I just feel more comfortable with the 'old' MBP design which has been proven and I know I can easily open it up and swap out a part if needed.

 

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Can't upgrade graphics? So it's just like any other laptop then.*

Yep. Part of the point. And that simple fact will be the one which ages most any laptop for people as long as they made the right decision in regard to the processor (not an issue here) and in this particular case, the RAM.

 

[jpbl1976]

I wouldn't buy this just yet -- first generation products such as this always have flaws. Also, I think Apple sees this as a test-bed device to see what kind of demand these devices will have -- if it sells very well, it's safe to assume that their entire notebook line will have retina displays and solid state drives sooner rather than later.

I've used SSDs for 2 years now and they're a very welcome upgrade but also very price inefficient on a per-GB basis.

I would personally get a 13" rMBP if it were slim like this and had a retina display since I prefer having a desktop system for non-portable use and I find the MBA too small. Also, I never did like the aesthetics of the side-grill speakers on the 15" models.

So my two cents is: hold off for now until the inevitable early- or mid-2013 rMBP release.

By then, prices on 3rd-party SSDs will have subsided -- remember, the Thai floods caused prices of drives (including SSDs) to rocket 30%. You will probably save yourself 300 bucks or more for a bigger drive just by waiting. Also, while 256GB might seem like a lot for an SSD, you'll find yourself wishing you'd spent for a bigger drive before long just for the convenience of not having to carry a spare drive.

 

[theSeb]

Why doesn't anyone mention this possibility, which I believe is of utmost importance for professionals, especially when he/she is at a place/time that will not allow he/she to send it to apple for repair (for both professional and personal reasons)?

That's actually a valid concern. I've never seen people in your scenario carry around spare RAM, but I guess anything is possible. I've been using computers for 25 years now and I've never experienced my RAM failing. I have experienced faulty memory that did not work the first time I inserted it. If it works, then you're pretty much guaranteed for it to keep on working and outlast most of your other components. Sure, with an old shape MBP you could try to locate any computer store and buy replacement memory if you can't afford the wait for Apple to fix.

On the other hand I've seen many mechanical hard drives fail. It's not a case of if, but a matter of when. Luckily, the new MBP does not use a mechanical hard drive. NAND has a lifespan much longer than any mechanical HDDs. Sure, we've seen some stability issues with SSDs but those are related to firmware (software) issues rather than an inherent hardware design fault. At the end of the day an SSD is more reliable than a mechanical HDD.

It's easy enough to carry a bootable clone of your hard drive that you can boot from via TB or USB 3 in an emergency. That's what I do.

 

[pandamonia]

I just buy a new one every 2 years and sell the old one costs me 500-600£ I get a big upgrade in gpu CPU ssd and ram.

Simples

 

[theSeb]

I wouldn't buy this just yet -- first generation products such as this always have flaws. Also, I think Apple sees this as a test-bed device to see what kind of demand these devices will have -- if it sells very well, it's safe to assume that their entire notebook line will have retina displays and solid state drives sooner rather than later.

I've used SSDs for 2 years now and they're a very welcome upgrade but also very price inefficient on a per-GB basis.

I would personally get a 13" rMBP if it were slim like this and had a retina display since I prefer having a desktop system for non-portable use and I find the MBA too small. Also, I never did like the aesthetics of the side-grill speakers on the 15" models.

So my two cents is: hold off for now until the inevitable early- or mid-2013 rMBP release.

By then, prices on 3rd-party SSDs will have subsided -- remember, the Thai floods caused prices of drives (including SSDs) to rocket 30%. You will probably save yourself 300 bucks or more for a bigger drive just by waiting. Also, while 256GB might seem like a lot for an SSD, you'll find yourself wishing you'd spent for a bigger drive before long just for the convenience of not having to carry a spare drive.

SSD prices have not skyrocketed or been impacted by the flooding in Thailand. The prices are dropping constantly.*

 

[bungiefan89]

I can totally sympathize with the OP. In fact, the RMBP seems more like a computer you can gloat about than something intended to get work done on.

I don't care about the lack of upgradability, I'm concerned by iFixit giving off the vibe that if you somehow bust almost any part of the computer, your only real option is to buy a completely new computer. And when the laptop in question is so expensive, that seems pretty crazy.

I also think they compromised too much on size. A thinner laptop is all well and good, but when the thing still weighs four and a half pounds, I beg to ask what the point of making the thing thinner was. Couldn't they just have made it the same thickness, then used the extra space for more memory? Or better yet, more battery life? Think about it: for DECADES, portable computers have had between five and ten hours of battery life. Imagine the headlines you'd snag if the battery on this thing could last for a full 12 hours without a charge! You could STILL have the retina display and the two thunderbolt ports and all the other sexy features it comes with, and it could probably be a little upgradeable... at least let us by 3rd party RAM instead of forcing us to pay your silly premium on it, Apple!

The RMBP is clearly not for me. I have no need for one any time in the future. I just don't see why they had to compromise so much just to make the computer a little thinner when they've ALREADY got a line of uber-thin laptops.

 

[669532]

Good for you!

Cool beans.

This doesn't exactly add to the discussion in any way - in future try to add in at least one half insightful comment.

 

[theSeb]

I can totally sympathize with the OP. In fact, the RMBP seems more like a computer you can gloat about than something intended to get work done on.

I don't care about the lack of upgradability, I'm concerned by iFixit giving off the vibe that if you somehow bust almost any part of the computer, your only real option is to buy a completely new computer. And when the laptop in question is so expensive, that seems pretty crazy.

I also think they compromised too much on size. A thinner laptop is all well and good, but when the thing still weighs four and a half pounds, I beg to ask what the point of making the thing thinner was. Couldn't they just have made it the same thickness, then used the extra space for more memory? Or better yet, more battery life? Think about it: for DECADEST, portable computers have had between five and ten hours of battery life. Imagine the headlines you'd snag if the battery on this thing could last for a full 12 hours without a charge! You could STILL have the retina display and the two thunderbolt ports and all the other sexy features it comes with, and it could probably be a little upgradeable... at least let us by 3rd party RAM instead of forcing us to pay your silly premium on it, Apple!

The RMBP is clearly not for me. I have no need for one any time in the future. I just don't see why they had to compromise so much just to make the computer a little thinner when they've ALREADY got a line of uber-thin laptops.

Buy a new computer? No, you just get it fixed thanks to a warranty.

 

[joker35]

That's actually a valid concern. I've never seen people in your scenario carry around spare RAM, but I guess anything is possible. I've been using computers for 25 years now and I've never experienced my RAM failing. I have experienced faulty memory that did not work the first time I inserted it. If it works, then you're pretty much guaranteed for it to keep on working and outlast most of your other components. Sure, with an old shape MBP you could try to locate any computer store and buy replacement memory if you can't afford the wait for Apple to fix.

On the other hand I've seen many mechanical hard drives fail. It's not a case of if, but a matter of when. Luckily, the new MBP does not use a mechanical hard drive. NAND has a lifespan much longer than any mechanical HDDs. Sure, we've seen some stability issues with SSDs but those are related to firmware (software) issues rather than an inherent hardware design fault. At the end of the day an SSD is more reliable than a mechanical HDD.

It's easy enough to carry a bootable clone of your hard drive that you can boot from via TB or USB 3 in an emergency. That's what I do.

You and I had a very different experience. My last build (with the q6600 cpu) failed me after three years of service. It gave me BSOD randomly during the three years of use and eventually died, which I found out later was caused by a bad ram.

As for ssd's reliability. You might want to read this article from Tom's hardware: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-reliability-failure-rate,2923.html

Here are some quotes from the end of this article:

"As Dr. Steve Swanson, who researches NAND, adds, 'It's not like manufacturers make drives as reliable as they possibly can. They make them as reliable as economically feasible'"

"The only definitive conclusion we can reach right now is that you should take any claim of reliability from an SSD vendor with a grain of salt."

"Rather, our purpose here is to call into question the idea that SSDs are definitely more reliable than hard drives, based on today's limited backup for such a claim."

One of my friend, who happens to be a certified HP computer technician, shares the same sentiment towards ssd technology.

 

[danetello]

I agree

 

[boy-better-know]

I don't know why people are giving the OP a hard time. He is just voicing his view on the direction that Apple are taking. Personally I have never been oneto upgrade my computer, and have put an order in for a retina MBP. But I also recognise the importance to some people of the legacy MBP. I believe Apple also recognise this which is why they have kept the legacy MBP.
It is obvious that Apple believe that this is the way things are headed, and arguably it promotes a throw away society. But as long as we have a choice I will be happy.

 

[Queen6]

The R-MBP would likely work for me, I don't particularly need high speed Ethernet, in general I don't upgrade, barring RAM and that is just to save against Apples high price on modules at initial purchase. The display and reduction in physical size are certainly a benefit and I could possibly reduce the number of Mac`s I have by going from a MBP & Air combo to a R-MBP

Equally I can see the concerns for a non upgradeable path for those that do like to expand their systems over time, however Apple portables have never offered much in this direction barring RAM & storage. and of course DIY repair is seriously limited.

I tend to keep my Mac`s 4-5 years then pass them on, my Early 2008 15" 2.4 C2D is still a usable system for the best part, not as fast as you would like nor anywhere near as capable as my primary Late 2011 15" 2.4 i7. Both of these systems have had their RAM expanded, other than that they are stock. I don't anticipate the R-MBP`s ageing any differently especially as Apple is now offering RAM in larger capacities (8Mb & 16Mb). From an engineering perspective Apple also have fewer options each cycle in their quest to produce smaller, faster, aesthetically pleasing notebooks that offer a reasonable level of performance and still innovate

I am not sold, nor I am not against R-MBP, just maybe the 2012 High End non Retina MacBook Pro was the pinnacle of portable computing for OS X, or maybe we are just at the start of a new adventure with Apple...

 

[grrrz]

well when I see people here saying they're selling their last year model to a new one I'm not surprised it's not so much of a bother not to be able to upgrade. The point of buying good quality hardware is to be able to keep it for as long as possible. depending on your needs and the evolution of software which pushes you to upgrade, you can keep a machine for at least 4 years, and a few years more if you don't need extra powerful applications.
And this is the point to being able to upgrade your machine. in two years and even a lot less, 256 gb storage will be ridiculous, on the current model you can put an ssd, replace the superdrive, have probably up to 4 Tb of storage by 2013-2014 standards, you can have plenty of ram if you need, and that used to be a given to be able to do so, and this is more luxury to be able to work without carrying tons of accessories (external drives, adapters...) than having a high quality screen. It works the other way around, if you need a high quality screen, just plug one.
I agree this new macbook is kind of an expensive good looking big toy.
I can understand how it would appeal to people working with pictures though. And I hope it would push the need for better quality external screens, even portable hi-res external screen could be something cool I may buy to go with my compact 13" pro to work on high density project.
for the average consumer who needs facebook and netflix, buy a macbook air or pro 13" instead of throwing your money.

 

[surjavarman]

I was wondering what is going to happen if the ram or the ssd fails and your warranty just expired?

Do you end up with $2200+ notebook that you can't use at all?