I can't do it -- Spend $2000+ on a laptop that can never be upgraded

[Dammit Cubs]

...unbelievable. Apple's power over the minions. It's really shocking.

Are so many people so delusional? That you'd willingly give up money, and privacy, and security because Apple says it's right?

The upgrade argument is one, but what about BASIC triage?

I keep my 17" 2011 Pro because, if my drive (which is a personally installed Samsung SSD) ever dies, or is just inaccessible from the Pro, guess what? I can attach it to the iMac, get my personal stuff off of it, and transfer it to a new SSD which I can then install and I'm back up and running.

If the iMac dies, I'm pretty much out of luck because I have to take the whole thing into Apple unless I want to deal with magnets and glass suctions and all that. I really don't. Thus why the important stuff resides externally.

The Air serves primarily one purpose: to be what the iPad should have been: a light, portable, yet FULL feature RICH Mac OS experience. But the same problem exists, if the Air dies I have to take it in.

It is 50 steps backward to not allow a user to replace or fix their own drive.

It's not about apple being right. People just want to whine to whine. I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. which is why they made the regular of the MBP. If people wanted a fully upgradeable module then they will move towards that by buying that type of system. The pieces inside are still modular and if something breaks you can only fix on piece that's that freaking SSD. Maybe even the logic board. What if the CPU dies, what if the GPU dies. Just like most laptops, they still have to completely replaced. I'm sorry you have a problem with this business model. You are playing $400 for the retina, that is the only reason for the price difference. Apple chose to go in house because ITS GOOD BUSINESS. By going in hold, you don't have overhead costs and decrease margins. It's the way ALL COMPANIES would ideally want to go. The fact that apple did is why they are so damn rich in money. They are just ahead of what you will see from every manufacturer out there. And if they didn't do this, we would have the clunky MBP. Do a teardown on those samsungs, they are also starting to use propietary steps. This isn't new.

and once again, its a laptop. and for a computer like this and slim like this, it's not gonna be a cheap laptop.

It's also called PRO line so for people who are consumers complaining about it being too expensive probably needs to move the Macbook Air line up. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. But then again, your cake is a this perfect utopian that even if apple were to get that write, you would complain about something else. It just never ends.

the whining never ends.

 

[phyrexia]

The pieces inside are still modular and if something breaks you can only fix on piece that's that freaking SSD. Maybe even the logic board. What if the CPU dies, what if the GPU dies. Just like most laptops, they still have to completely replaced.

What you say here is wrong. The CPU and GPU are both soldered to the Logic Board on MBPs. ram goes bad, replace ram. hdd/ssd goes bad, replace that. cpu/gpu/logic board unit goes bad, replace that.

On the RMBP, if any one thing goes bad: ram, ssd, cpu, gpu, logic board, then the entire circuit board unit must be replaced, since they are all soldered directly to the board.

Further: A user can no longer remove a hard drive to retrieve data or to secure privacy when sending a machine in for service.

 

[Argentine86]

Man...About to get first Mac...you guys bitch too much

Well I will soon be getting a RMBP as I've currently decided. I too am like many of you that like to upgrade things and make things my own, as you would a car or truck (I've fixed up my truck). Only Apple products I currently have are iPhone4S, iPad 3rd gen, and Apple TV. Even with these 3 products I've realized how great Apple is in their designs and how far ahead they are than the game...

I think Apple did great with the RMBP. Sure its not upgradable, but lets face it fellas....this is the future of mobile computers. Did people bitch about the iPad and compare it to PCs/Laptops/Netbooks? Yep, some did...but look what happened....the Netbook disappeared. And everyone followed...

Buthurt about SSD not upgradeable? Well it is now with Air...sure its expensive, but you dont think with time that that will change? Especially since its the only option now for the future. If I was an SSD/Hard drive company, It'd be stupid not to jump on this to make money....IT WILL BE UPGRADABLE IN FUTURE

Remember when SSDs were rediculously expensive? And everyone HAD to get 7200rpm hard drives?...now people are bitchin about how many they want to shove in they laptops. Sure it's confortable to be a space "Hoarder" and want everyhting in one place, carry everything you have with you...Technology is shifting to super fast wireless capabilities/storage, and Thunderbolt lets you add whatever you want. Just be organized and carry a SMALL drive when you'd like. Would you want a big old truck to carry all the things in your garage all the time so you don't ever not have something? Just use your mind and be organized...know what you need and when...pretty simple...carry a little drive in your pocket WHEN YOU NEED IT...

As for those who say "But It's too expensive!!! OMG!!!"....really people?
Go buy a Dell/HP like I've had and hate it every day after a year when it ***** on you....Still don't believe me? LOOK AT PIC BELOW....

16GB Ram will last a looong time, and since some of you can't tinker with it, the value of the laptop stays even higher and you can sell/buy the next best Macbook in 4+ years. Some of you will still be hugging your 2011 and previous Macbooks then? LOL


END THREAD

 

[Dammit Cubs]

What you say here is wrong. The CPU and GPU are both soldered to the Logic Board on MBPs. ram goes bad, replace ram. hdd/ssd goes bad, replace that. cpu/gpu/logic board unit goes bad, replace that.

On the RMBP, if any one thing goes bad: ram, ssd, cpu, gpu, logic board, then the entire circuit board unit must be replaced, since they are all soldered directly to the board.

Further: A user can no longer remove a hard drive to retrieve data or to secure privacy when sending a machine in for service.

GPU, CPU yes. But not the ssd. it's using a custom controller that' detacheable like what was seen in the macbook air.

The following componets If any one of them fails: then you have replace the entire board:

• NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M GPU
• Intel Core-i7 3720QM 2.6 GHz processor (Turbo Boost up to 3.6 GHz) with Intel Graphics HD 4000.
• What appears to be an Intel E208B284 Platform Controller Hub
• Hynix H5TC2G83CFR DDR3L SDRAM
• Intel DSL3510L Thunderbolt controller

Of this the only thing you want to upgrade is the ram. Which is why you have only one shot. For repairability. 3rd party SSD will be available for this by the time your one-year warranty hits. if the Ram were to fail. the only problem i see is if you didn't get the extended warranty and the ram crapped out.

 

[Erurainon]

What you say here is wrong. The CPU and GPU are both soldered to the Logic Board on MBPs. ram goes bad, replace ram. hdd/ssd goes bad, replace that. cpu/gpu/logic board unit goes bad, replace that.

On the RMBP, if any one thing goes bad: ram, ssd, cpu, gpu, logic board, then the entire circuit board unit must be replaced, since they are all soldered directly to the board.

Further: A user can no longer remove a hard drive to retrieve data or to secure privacy when sending a machine in for service.

Of all the people arguing for this, I found this one of the clearest descriptions of why it is useful.

However, what percentage of units Apple sell will have any of these fail, and if they are doing this to reduce the cost or make the design more appealing to a larger percentage of the customer base I can see why they have played the numbers game they have and made the decisions they did.

 

[corvus32]

@ phyrexia:

The SSD on the retina is not soldered to the logic board.

If it dies, it can be replaced without replacing the entire computer - which makes good sense. It can also be removed for privacy concerns.

The RAM I'm not worried about. Most RAM failures I've seen were cause by human error. Someone jacked up the socket during an install, fed the memory chips to much voltage during an overclock attempt, popped something in there with an ESD, etc.

CPUs, GPUs, and motherboards are usually either DOA or good to go for a long time, unless... see paragraph above.

 

[lcseds]

I am not seeing some logic here. Those with older MBP's scoff at the notion of no upgrade potential and high prices of the new ones. But then say they added memory and an SSD for $500-$800. Well that sounds good, but you still bought your MBP also. So, with your "inexpensive upgrades", PLUS the cost of your MBP, your are no better off than a RMBP with 16GB and the 512 Flash aren't you? This configuration will not need a similar upgrade that you have just performed "mid life" of your MBP.
The only two items upgradeable are ram and hard drive. So a RMBP with the 512 and 16GB essentially gives you your midlife upgrade already installed when you leave the store. Makes sense to me.

 

[gpzjock]

Laptops have never been the upgrade choice. If you want a computer that has upgradable options you would choose a tower. Apple laptops have always had slim to no upgrade options and slim just left town. Don't like it? Walk away. Apple don't do mods anymore take it or leave it. Felt the same way in 2008 when I switched from iMacs to Mac Pros.

 

[corvus32]

You are very correct, lcseds.

When I put pencil to paper and did the math, it made more sense to return my 17" 2011 MBP and exchange it for the high-end RMBP.

The cost of the 17" MBP was $2308+tax at Bestbuy, and the 180GB Intel 520 SSD was $299+tax there as well. Add to that $160+shipping for 16GB of RAM, and I had over $2900 invested in an nice but lower spec'd computer.

 

[Kafka]

What I find interesting is how people have been saying for months "don't buy your SSD from Apple it's a rip off", but now use that rip off price as a comparison and say the RMBP is even cheaper than a legacy MBP+SSD...

So no, a legacy MBP+SSD is not "even more expensive", since none of you would have bought the SSD from Apple in the first place.
For a fair comparison the price for the SSD upgrade on the legacy should be halved.

 

[panzer06]

Yeah I don't get it. People are mourning over something that hasn't happened yet.

Nothing from a month ago has been taken away, only another option has been added.

For now. As you can see, many of us believe this is only the beginning. Perhaps not the next refresh but soon all Apple laptop could be completely locked down.

I am not seeing some logic here. Those with older MBP's scoff at the notion of no upgrade potential and high prices of the new ones. But then say they added memory and an SSD for $500-$800. Well that sounds good, but you still bought your MBP also. So, with your "inexpensive upgrades", PLUS the cost of your MBP, your are no better off than a RMBP with 16GB and the 512 Flash aren't you? This configuration will not need a similar upgrade that you have just performed "mid life" of your MBP.
The only two items upgradeable are ram and hard drive. So a RMBP with the 512 and 16GB essentially gives you your midlife upgrade already installed when you leave the store. Makes sense to me.

Many people bought the entry level MBP and added RAM and 7200rpm or SSD disk somewhere down the road when they could afford it. If this trend continues and all Apple laptops are basically sealed (can't get in w/o special tools - you can find them but they are not readily available at the local store) those less expensive options are no more. Potential customers will be required to buy the most options they can afford and hope that holds them until they can afford to replace the system.

For all the people saying 8GB RAM is plenty -- perhaps now but in 2 or 3 years maybe not. Under this evolving scenario you now have to sell your existing laptop and buy a new one to use that new app or game that requires 12GB of ram.

You are correct in that there are many ways to live with this new locked down approach from Apple but it doesn't mean those of us who find this new paradigm oppressive should just blithely accept it and buy the new rMBP.

http://ifixit.org/2763/the-new-macbook-pro-unfixable-unhackable-untenable/

ifixit almost goes so far as to advocate boycotting the new system in order to get Apple's attention. They have a point. One that will be made moot if this new machine is a runaway success.

As I stated earlier here, perhaps that was Apple's intent all along.

Cheers,

 

[lcseds]

Many people bought the entry level MBP and added RAM and 7200rpm or SSD disk somewhere down the road when they could afford it. If this trend continues and all Apple laptops are basically sealed (can't get in w/o special tools - you can find them but they are not readily available at the local store) those less expensive options are no more. Potential customers will be required to buy the most options they can afford and hope that holds them until they can afford to replace the system.

For all the people saying 8GB RAM is plenty -- perhaps now but in 2 or 3 years maybe not. Under this evolving scenario you now have to sell your existing laptop and buy a new one to use that new app or game that requires 12GB of ram.

You are correct in that there are many ways to live with this new locked down approach from Apple but it doesn't mean those of us who find this new paradigm oppressive should just blithely accept it and buy the new rMBP.

Oh agreed. However Apple has always had a take or leave it attitude. This won't change. The notion of a boycott is ridiculous. Just about everything Apple puts out these days sells like wildfire. So 2% of potential customers complain. So what?
Apple has always sold at a premium. The secondary (used) market has always been strong. If you can't afford the latest and greatest maxed out, then the used market will provide excellent systems at a much better price that will still meet ones needs. Those that can't afford or justify these systems can use Windows systems with plenty of computing power for half the price. They will do the job also.
If you can't afford a BMW over the long haul, consider the Volkswagon. Both do the same job, but with different consumer expectation.

 

[Donka]

For all the people saying 8GB RAM is plenty -- perhaps now but in 2 or 3 years maybe not. Under this evolving scenario you now have to sell your existing laptop and buy a new one to use that new app or game that requires 12GB of ram.

And of course if you can't upgrade it, it will be harder to sell and have less resale value because if it is underpowered for you, it will be for many prospective buyers.

 

[panzer06]

And of course if you can't upgrade it, it will be harder to sell and have less resale value because if it is underpowered for you, it will be for many prospective buyers.

Excellent observation. I didn't think of that. However, given the relative lack of Apple product knowledge in the general buying public, I can see many people paying more than its worth regardless. Just look at how many used Santa Rosa based MBPs with faulty nvidia 8600s kept selling on ebay even once the story was out there for months.

Cheers,

 

[revelated]

@ phyrexia:

The SSD on the retina is not soldered to the logic board.

If it dies, it can be replaced without replacing the entire computer - which makes good sense. It can also be removed for privacy concerns.

Because it's essentially a daughter board, you're forced to attach it to a motherboard to get it to function. That's a far cry from a standard SATA drive where USB connectors and enclosures are ubiquitous.

Look, I understand Apple is trying to keep the internals compact. But there certainly were and are other, better ways of achieving the same goal.

 

[daneoni]

I went to look at one yesterday and while its a nice machine i simply wasn't wowed. Yes its thinner and lighter and the screen is beautiful but overall i just didn't feel that 'need/want' to upgrade. Especially when compared to my Early 11' MBP. I found my current MBP still held its own against the RetinaMBP in almost all departments except for the number of pixels both screens have, which made justifying a purchase harder.

Plus i keep finding out about the tradeoffs;

1. Functional resolution is 1440x900 (a downgrade for any hi-res owner) and scaling isn't quite as good as the native resolution. Plus its still glassy no matter how you spin it.

2. The thing is locked down like Fort Knox. NOTHING is upgradeable and they're even using Pentalobe screws to reinforce the idea that you are to stay out of the machine! The SSD though using SATA, uses a proprietary connection which means you will pay OWC an arm and leg when/if they figure out a solution.

In an age where OS X 10.9 might need 16GB RAM minimum to run smoothly, and file sizes are getting larger, this is disconcerting. Once you start to reach the performance ceiling thats it. You're SOL.

3. Sleep/battery indicators are gone. Why? these were useful features and took very little space but yanked just so they can boast thinner. Now if you want to know how much battery is left or if your laptop is actually sleeping without opening the lid...?

4. No Ethernet. I don't know where this notion comes from that Ethernet is obsolete even though it is still the best network interface available period. 802.11 is nice but when it fails (and it occasionally will) you REALLY are screwed plus sustained throughput is simply not as robust.

5. Also some of these sacrifices mean you have to pay for/pack dongles to compensate which not only drives up cost but also starts to derail the portability/design argument with the cables/dongles sprawling everywhere.

6. Price. A tad overpriced overall for some of the sacrifices you'll be making.

After considering all these i decided to sit this one out. Will wait until Retina technology permeates to the rest of the product line.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

I went to look at one yesterday and while its a nice machine i simply wasn't wowed. Yes its thinner and lighter and the screen is beautiful but overall i just didn't feel that 'need/want' to upgrade. Especially when compared to my Early 11' MBP. I found my current MBP still held its own against the RetinaMBP in almost all departments except for the number of pixels both screens have, which made justifying a purchase harder.

Plus i keep finding out about the tradeoffs;

1. Functional resolution is 1440x900 (a downgrade for any hi-res owner) and scaling isn't quite as good as the native resolution. Plus its still glassy no matter how you spin it.

2. The thing is locked down like Fort Knox. NOTHING is upgradeable and they're even using Pentalobe screws to reinforce the idea that you are to stay out of the machine!. The SSD though using SATA, uses a proprietary connection which means you will pay OWC an arm and leg when/if they figure out a solution.

In an age where OS X 10.9 might need 16GB RAM minimum to run smoothly, and file sizes are getting larger, this is disconcerting. Once you start to reach the performance ceiling thats it. You're SOL.

3. Sleep/battery indicators are gone. Why? these were useful features and took very little space but yanked just so they can boast thinner. Now if you want to know how much battery is left or if your laptop is actually sleeping without opening the lid...?

4. No Ethernet. I don't know where this notion comes from that Ethernet is obsolete even though it is still the best network interface available period. 802.11 is nice but when it fails (and it occasionally will) you REALLY are screwed plus sustained throughput is simply not as robust.

5. Also some of these sacrifices mean you have to pay for/pack dongles to compensate which not only drives up cost but also starts to derail the portability/design argument with the cables/dongles sprawling everywhere.

6. Price. A tad overpriced overall for some of the sacrifices you'll be making.


After considering all these i decided to sit this one out. Will wait until Retina technology permeates to the rest of the product like.

What wrong with the 17" MBP mid 2010 NVIDEA card perfect screen upgradable
I will not sell it
MAYBE for $4000

 

[corvus32]

Because it's essentially a daughter board, you're forced to attach it to a motherboard to get it to function.

I doubt that will be the case, since OWC already has an external enclosure for the Macbook Air's SSD.

 

[aristobrat]

ifixit almost goes so far as to advocate boycotting the new system in order to get Apple's attention. They have a point.

ifixit's business model is "selling repair parts and tools".

Apple's new system directly threatens that business model, so of course they're going to have a problem with it.

 

[darkelement]

-Your RMBP cannot grow with you as a user. If you want more memory or a larger SSD later you are just out of luck.

-Putting memory on the LogicBoard was strictly a dick move by them. It serves no 'design' or 'engineering' purpose. They would fit perfectly in the current design.

-"WAIT! Apple redesigned the SSD to bring harmony to the planet!" Well, Apple DID redesign the SSD interface so they could lock others out of it. Way to go Apple!

-"WAIT! You can't fit SO-DIMMs and a normal SSD in the RMBP!!" - See my thread where I give you dimensions of each. They would fit.

-1440 x 900 may look great but it is still 1440 x 900. I'm barely happy with 1680 x 1050. "WAIT!! You can scale it out of 1440 x 900!" Yep, with a performance hit.


Sorry, I still think this is a bad upgrade deal from Apple...


-P

the ram was made without a way to take it out to save space. how do you expect to make that thin of a computer otherwise? idk maybe im biased because im buying one, but still, theres nothing you would need to upgrade. 8gb of ram is PLENTY and if you feel like you want more, get it before you buy it. its a reasonably priced upgrade as well. want another ssd? buy one! OWC will have plenty in no time.

and are you complaining that the retina is to high def? or that its not enough? either way i tested one at the apple store and it didnt seem to make any performance difference as compared to the similar non retina version. dont hate, just dont buy it if your so apposed to it.

 

[panzer06]

the ram was made without a way to take it out to save space. how do you expect to make that thin of a computer otherwise? idk maybe im biased because im buying one, but still, theres nothing you would need to upgrade. 8gb of ram is PLENTY and if you feel like you want more, get it before you buy it. its a reasonably priced upgrade as well. want another ssd? buy one! OWC will have plenty in no time.

and are you complaining that the retina is to high def? or that its not enough? either way i tested one at the apple store and it didnt seem to make any performance difference as compared to the similar non retina version. dont hate, just dont buy it if your so apposed to it.

8GB is plenty today. The point we're trying to make is that it may not be plenty 2 years from now and there'll be no upgrading the system. It will need to be sold to someone who doesn't need whatever new app or function requires additional RAM. Then you'll need to buy a new system which will most likely be closed, thereby restarting the entire cycle. While macs hold resale well, there's also the lost productivity every time you have to do a swap.

The concern is that beyond this rev or perhaps the next one Apple will most likely move the other systems to this closed thin configuration and there won't be the alternative solutions we have today.

Many of us would like potential buyers to consider the consequences before they jump on this retina bandwagon as its implemented today.

But hey, maybe this is just an experimental form factor and apple will leave it a niche product while continuing to produce more flexible designs with greater options for upgrades and repairs.

Nah... I doubt it...

Cheers,

 

[Colpeas]

Easy help - max out the RAM when ordering, SSD blade is replaceable. I really can't imagine, how'd you like to reorder rMBP's innards to allow the HDD and RAM to be replaceable. Impossible - the inside of MBP is not a black hole, you can fit only so many components, so you need to do some tradeoffs.

You can have either thin mediocre spec'd MacBook with regular HDD and RAM, or, superfast beast with powerful GPU, a soldered RAM and longer battery life. If you can't cope w/ it, you're welcome to buy a non-retina MacBook.

 

[revelated]

I doubt that will be the case, since OWC already has an external enclosure for the Macbook Air's SSD.

One. And it's over $70. Compared to the $10 SATA-USB adapter readily available at almost every electronics store in the country.

As I said, one is ubiquitous. The other is not. I lean towards the one I can find without breaking the bank.

Put it this way: If I can buy the tool at Radio Shack, it's good. If I'm forced to buy it online, it's bad.

 

[macduke]

Or you could sell your MacBook Pro yearly and buy the new model for a net loss of $300-400. Which isn't a whole lot more than AppleCare. So you always have a current warranty and a top-of-the-line system. Plus you'd spend quite a bit on upgrading parts anyway—so it comes out to being marginal. I literally do this every year. It's great how Macs hold up their value over time. Sure it's kind of a pain going through the selling process, but not much more of a pain than shopping around and ordering parts, and then ripping open the case to swap things out. Plus you can never upgrade processors and GPUs normally, but with this method you can. Not to mention your battery is always fresh as well as the external casing and keyboard. There are literally no downsides to doing this. And I use a 0% interest Barclays card through Apple.com every year so that I'm not out the money while I'm waiting for my old system to sell.

 

[Xcallibur]

I went to look at one yesterday and while its a nice machine i simply wasn't wowed. Yes its thinner and lighter and the screen is beautiful but overall i just didn't feel that 'need/want' to upgrade. Especially when compared to my Early 11' MBP. I found my current MBP still held its own against the RetinaMBP in almost all departments except for the number of pixels both screens have, which made justifying a purchase harder.

Plus i keep finding out about the tradeoffs;

1. Functional resolution is 1440x900 (a downgrade for any hi-res owner) and scaling isn't quite as good as the native resolution. Plus its still glassy no matter how you spin it.

2. The thing is locked down like Fort Knox. NOTHING is upgradeable and they're even using Pentalobe screws to reinforce the idea that you are to stay out of the machine! The SSD though using SATA, uses a proprietary connection which means you will pay OWC an arm and leg when/if they figure out a solution.

In an age where OS X 10.9 might need 16GB RAM minimum to run smoothly, and file sizes are getting larger, this is disconcerting. Once you start to reach the performance ceiling thats it. You're SOL.

3. Sleep/battery indicators are gone. Why? these were useful features and took very little space but yanked just so they can boast thinner. Now if you want to know how much battery is left or if your laptop is actually sleeping without opening the lid...?

4. No Ethernet. I don't know where this notion comes from that Ethernet is obsolete even though it is still the best network interface available period. 802.11 is nice but when it fails (and it occasionally will) you REALLY are screwed plus sustained throughput is simply not as robust.

5. Also some of these sacrifices mean you have to pay for/pack dongles to compensate which not only drives up cost but also starts to derail the portability/design argument with the cables/dongles sprawling everywhere.

6. Price. A tad overpriced overall for some of the sacrifices you'll be making.

After considering all these i decided to sit this one out. Will wait until Retina technology permeates to the rest of the product line.

+1, very elaborate and to the point post.