I just dont get Apple anymore.....PRO what?

[dyn]

Just go to notebook check and notice the difference in framerates between the k1000M and GT650M in Solidworks for example (which is the same card architecturally speaking).....its like 400% difference.

Then why do none of my users complain about it? Because nobody notices the difference. The only difference they notice is between their old notebook and the new one. Which is obvious because the new machine has more mem, a faster disk, faster cpu and faster gpu.

Also, what you are talking about is performance on paper for 1 specific component. In reality most will not notice those differences because it is the entire machine that counts, not just the gpu. It is a matter of cpu, mem, gpu, disk and software. The machine will only be as fast as the slowest component. You can have a very fast card but if the cpu and mem aren't up to par you'll have crappy performance.

Performance means a well balanced machine in terms of hardware AND software. Performance does not mean a fast component. It helps if you actually know how a computer works.

those drivers make a HUUUUUUGGGGEEE difference.....and cannot be had on "any other card"

They make a (noticeable) difference for the software that they are optimised for which isn't all that many. They certainly do not make a "HUUUUUUGGGGEEE". It is not like light and day.

 

[sonyisawesome]

Then why do none of my users complain about it? Because nobody notices the difference.

Wrong. Probably because they have never seen the "better" version of it.

 

[dyn]

Wrong. Probably because they have never seen the "better" version of it.

You are wrong indeed because they do have seen the difference (we've had hardware with and hardware without such cards). Like I said, it helps when you know how a computer works. It's not only about the gpu, it's about the entire box. Solidworks and the like run fine on ordinary hardware which is why nobody complains (some run on the newest hardware, others run on hardware from 2 years ago; they change hardware after 3 years). You really do not need to pay the premium for those "special" cards.

 

[erigas]

Then why do none of my users complain about it? Because nobody notices the difference. The only difference they notice is between their old notebook and the new one. Which is obvious because the new machine has more mem, a faster disk, faster cpu and faster gpu.

Also, what you are talking about is performance on paper for 1 specific component. In reality most will not notice those differences because it is the entire machine that counts, not just the gpu. It is a matter of cpu, mem, gpu, disk and software. The machine will only be as fast as the slowest component. You can have a very fast card but if the cpu and mem aren't up to par you'll have crappy performance.

Performance means a well balanced machine in terms of hardware AND software. Performance does not mean a fast component. It helps if you actually know how a computer works.


They make a (noticeable) difference for the software that they are optimised for which isn't all that many. They certainly do not make a "HUUUUUUGGGGEEE". It is not like light and day.

2fps vs 25fps...yes they do. In ALL the pro engineering/3d graphics aplications like CATIA, Solidworks, Maya, SIEMENS, PRO/E the list goes on.....if there was no difference those cards would not exist dude!!
The difference is big as smooth vs unusable.
The only advantage of the Geforce/Radeon versions are better framerates in gaming!!

 

[leman]

Solidworks and the like run fine on ordinary hardware which is why nobody complains (some run on the newest hardware, others run on hardware from 2 years ago; they change hardware after 3 years). You really do not need to pay the premium for those "special" cards.

If you need to work on large projects efficiently, a workstation GPU makes a lot of difference. Of course not 2 vs 25fps like erigas here is trying to tell us, more likely 20-30% difference (although it might be lot higher if you have very complex scenes lots of wireframe rendering).

The only advantage of the Geforce/Radeon versions are better framerates in gaming!!

AFAIK, its not true anymore. Workstation cards are just as capable for gaming now.

P.S. BTW, I advice you gents to read this article (and maybe some more similar stuff). The truth is, if the CAD software would actually use the modern API and capabilities in a smart way instead of blindly throwing polygons at the GPU using 12 year old legacy API calls, you'd get better performance than what you see now. But well, Nvidia has to sell these Quadros somehow, right?

 

[makaveli559m]

They beginning to do what HP did. HP decided to rename all there HP DV series or Pavilion series to Envy as not to confuse costumers? Its more than a ripoff if you ask me. Anything below 15 inch should be considered a MacBook because of the graphics card, believe no comments on how Haswell is a good replacement card. Everyone knows that integrated isnt still in the same level as a descrete graphics card.

 

[erigas]

ok here are some hard numbers from notebook check.com.
You can check the reviews of the k2000M and GT650M (the same card architecturally but the K2000M can take advantage of the pro drivers) with the respective benchmarks. You can find them here:http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-GT-650M.71887.0.html
and here:http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-Quadro-K2000M.76893.0.html

To recap: K2000M

1. Solidworks: 34.1fps
   
2. PRO/E 13.3fps
   
3. Lightwave 45fps
4. Siemens NX 24.8fps

GT650M

1. Solidworks: 7.8fps
   
2. PRO/E 1.2fps
   
3. Lightwave 14.5fps
   
4. Siemens NX 3.1fps

You can do the math on the percentage difference.
But Hey Diablo III runs faster on the GeForce lol....

 

[Quu]

Since they are for the first time making FireGL cards the default option in the Mac Pro maybe we'll see a Pro card in the rMBP refresh, although I doubt it.

 

[Y So Jelly]

They beginning to do what HP did. HP decided to rename all there HP DV series or Pavilion series to Envy as not to confuse costumers? Its more than a ripoff if you ask me. Anything below 15 inch should be considered a MacBook because of the graphics card, believe no comments on how Haswell is a good replacement card. Everyone knows that integrated isnt still in the same level as a descrete graphics card.

Iris 5200 should be decent.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Pro-Graphics-5200.90965.0.html

 

[ogi.nic]

[...]
P.S. BTW, I advice you gents to read this article (and maybe some more similar stuff). The truth is, if the CAD software would actually use the modern API and capabilities in a smart way instead of blindly throwing polygons at the GPU using 12 year old legacy API calls, you'd get better performance than what you see now. But well, Nvidia has to sell these Quadros somehow, right?

Well, keep in might that some of those gaming "tweaks" are unacceptable when exact results are a must (still, you are right that some software could indeed use some optimizations).

 

[leman]

Well, keep in might that some of those gaming "tweaks" are unacceptable when exact results are a must (still, you are right that some software could indeed use some optimizations).

Could you give some examples? I was thinking along the lines of hidden geometry culling and emulating double-sided surfaces with two one-sided triangles. This technique is also very good. Of course I am not suggesting to use any of the common 'illusion' techniques often employed in games, just use APIs in a smarter way. The 650M can process over 900 million polygons per second. If you render one line as a quad (two triangles) it is still over 200M lines per second or 10 million lines rendered @20fps. Now I don't know what is the average complexity of the models you are working with...

 

[draculr]

I think the OP is confused by Apple's own confusing stance on the matter.

When it comes to desktops Pro means workstation. The Mac Pro always used Xeon chips, ECC RAM and the upcoming model uses workstation class GPUs.

When it comes to laptops, Pro means nothing.

 

[vpro]

Huh?

MacBook (Pro) means nothing? I'm on the 17"MBP and I'm a professional world music recording artist/producer/designer... Getting my success on and you tell me PRO on this notebook means nothing?

It may mean diddly squat now but man! It is how the individual consumer uses their MacBook Pro, is the real concern. If your needs are a desktop why would you go to a notebook unless you were savvy enough to get the work done without cutting corners even on a notebook like the MacBook Pro.

Now-a-day this 'shiny red crispy fruity' company wants everyone to "feel like a pro", "the pro in all of us" comes out with each idiotic finger swipe of the track pad scrolling through trash talk websites all day long, how "pro"! It is their marketing and excuse to charge ridonkulous amount of money on an over-rated screen. Which hardly anyone is buying anyways.

Right?

 

[draculr]

MacBook (Pro) means nothing? I'm on the 17"MBP and I'm a professional world music recording artist/producer/designer... Getting my success on and you tell me PRO on this notebook means nothing?

It may mean diddly squat now but man! It is how the individual consumer uses their MacBook Pro, is the real concern. If your needs are a desktop why would you go to a notebook unless you were savvy enough to get the work done without cutting corners even on a notebook like the MacBook Pro.

Now-a-day this 'shiny red crispy fruity' company wants everyone to "feel like a pro", "the pro in all of us" comes out with each idiotic finger swipe of the track pad scrolling through trash talk websites all day long, how "pro"! It is their marketing and excuse to charge ridonkulous amount of money on an over-rated screen. Which hardly anyone is buying anyways.

Right?

No one cares what you do with your hardware. There are two kinds of hardware in the PC world, consumer level and pro level.

When Apple brands their desktop mac as "Pro" it means Xeon chips, ECC RAM, workstation GPUs.

When Apple brands their laptop mac as "Pro" it means nothing. Consumer parts, machines that may or may not have a GPU. When HP/Dell brand their laptops "Pro" they generally include Quadro cards etc. (see Z-Book, Precision etc.).

Again, no one cares about how successful you are with your hardware, all the best to you. The hardware label and components is what the OP is talking about. Apple has a clear definition of what a Pro label means on the desktop line but not on the laptop line.

You can agree or disagree about Apple needing to be in the Pro market for laptops. But you cannot disagree with my above points.

 

[BookerDW]

No one cares what you do with your hardware. There are two kinds of hardware in the PC world, consumer level and pro level.

When Apple brands their desktop mac as "Pro" it means Xeon chips, ECC RAM, workstation GPUs.

When Apple brands their laptop mac as "Pro" it means nothing. Consumer parts, machines that may or may not have a GPU. When HP/Dell brand their laptops "Pro" they generally include Quadro cards etc. (see Z-Book, Precision etc.).

Again, no one cares about how successful you are with your hardware, all the best to you. The hardware label and components is what the OP is talking about. Apple has a clear definition of what a Pro label means on the desktop line but not on the laptop line.

You can agree or disagree about Apple needing to be in the Pro market for laptops. But you cannot disagree with my above points.

No need to be a dick. I can disagree with you all day long. If a professional finds their hardware adequate to make their living doing what they do, then it's professional hardware. Just because it isn't enterprise server class doesn't mean it's not professional. You have a narrowminded view of the term "professional". I know several production houses that edit Discovery Channel shows on iMacs off of RED Epics. Does that not make them professional? I suggest you take another look at your snot-nosed pompous attitude.

 

[leman]

Apple has a clear definition of what a Pro label means on the desktop line but not on the laptop line.

Now you are just nitpicking. Yes, the 'Pro' moniker on their desktop hardware means workstation components. The 'Pro' moniker on the laptops means just laptops. There is no non-Pro Macbook after all - just the ultraportable line (Air) vs the regular line (Pro). Its like complaining that Coca-Cola doesn't actually include any koka extract anymore or Pepsi does not include pepsin.

Btw, there is no such thing as 'pro' hardware per se. Usually people talk about workstation or server hardware. Apple has never built mobile workstations in the narrow sense of the word, nor they have ever claimed to build any. If you are so hung up on the 'Pro' bit, well, its just... silly.

 

[Vanilla35]

No one cares what you do with your hardware. There are two kinds of hardware in the PC world, consumer level and pro level.

When Apple brands their desktop mac as "Pro" it means Xeon chips, ECC RAM, workstation GPUs.

When Apple brands their laptop mac as "Pro" it means nothing. Consumer parts, machines that may or may not have a GPU. When HP/Dell brand their laptops "Pro" they generally include Quadro cards etc. (see Z-Book, Precision etc.).

Again, no one cares about how successful you are with your hardware, all the best to you. The hardware label and components is what the OP is talking about. Apple has a clear definition of what a Pro label means on the desktop line but not on the laptop line.

You can agree or disagree about Apple needing to be in the Pro market for laptops. But you cannot disagree with my above points.

I completely agree with his statement. And being overly assertive is alright every once in a while. He's simply keeping the deviation of topic back on track.

No need to be a dick. I can disagree with you all day long. If a professional finds their hardware adequate to make their living doing what they do, then it's professional hardware. Just because it isn't enterprise server class doesn't mean it's not professional. You have a narrowminded view of the term "professional". I know several production houses that edit Discovery Channel shows on iMacs off of RED Epics. Does that not make them professional? I suggest you take another look at your snot-nosed pompous attitude.

They showed evidence of their "lack of pro" placement in their Macbook line-up by completely removing the non-pro line. It means they were aware of it themselves, so it's not just a "opnion", it's almost a certainty.

Points aside, yes I don't think it matters, but "Pro" by its ultimate meaning probably means those type of components and usage which most closely resembles the Mac Pro. The rMBP is more like a powerful laptop. Not a pro machine. Imo.

Also, it's never gonna get a workstation, that's not the direction they're headed towards

 

[cube]

No need to be a dick. I can disagree with you all day long. If a professional finds their hardware adequate to make their living doing what they do, then it's professional hardware. Just because it isn't enterprise server class doesn't mean it's not professional. You have a narrowminded view of the term "professional". I know several production houses that edit Discovery Channel shows on iMacs off of RED Epics. Does that not make them professional? I suggest you take another look at your snot-nosed pompous attitude.

That a professional is able to make do with some piece of a equipment does not make it pro.

 

[BookerDW]

That a professional is able to make do with some piece of a equipment does not make it pro.

It sure as hell does. And who said anything about "making do". I've seen Sundance documentaries edited on MacBook Pros, high profile TV ads for huge companies produced on iMacs. How do you define "professional"? Maybe you should pull your head out of your ass and realize that tools are tools. I use an electric screwdriver to hang my television in my bedroom. A carpenter uses the same electric screwdriver to put together the wall of a 6000 sq ft home? Since you think you're god, where do you draw the line?

 

[BookerDW]

[/COLOR]You also keep bringing up this iMac for video editing example. If someone was to use an iMac to colour grade videos for cinema or broadcast deliveries they'd be kicked out of the building.

Why do you think proper production houses invest in colour accurate monitors and professional GPUs to send them 10bit signals? Screw it all, let's all be professionals with our iMacs!!

Not kicked out of the buildings in LA that I've worked in doing commercials for Toyota, GE, Target, etc, their iMacs are attached to grade monitors that are calibrated. And you'd also be amazed at what Thunderbolt is capable of. I've worked with 10-bit footage off a Thunderbolt RAID on an iMac with no problems. Not sure where you get your high-and-mighty attitude.

 

[draculr]

Not kicked out of the buildings in LA that I've worked in doing commercials for Toyota, GE, Target, etc, their iMacs are attached to grade monitors that are calibrated. And you'd also be amazed at what Thunderbolt is capable of. I've worked with 10-bit footage off a Thunderbolt RAID on an iMac with no problems. Not sure where you get your high-and-mighty attitude.

So you used professional grade monitors then. But you made do with a consumer grade iMac.

Hey just like me!

Except I don't believe the iMac gets elevated to "Pro" - hell even Apple doesn't!

 

[BookerDW]

So you used professional grade monitors then. But you made do with a consumer grade iMac.

Hey just like me!

Except I don't believe the iMac gets elevated to "Pro" - hell even Apple doesn't!

Attached to an iMac yes! When the Mac Pro was languishing in updated tech, the iMac surpassed it with Thunderbolt and faster processors, and for certain apps, that allowed the iMac to outperform the Mac Pro. For most of us professionals, we changed course and went to iMacs for much of our workflows. It's sad that you're stuck in a boxed mentality that form factor determines the usefulness of a tool.

 

[draculr]

It's sad that you're stuck in a boxed mentality that form factor determines the usefulness of a tool.

I just stated I use an iMac... I just don't consider it a Professional machine because it isn't one.

I'm a professional, but there is nothing about the machine that is professional. I don't see why you find this so difficult a concept to grasp.

 

[zap2]

I just stated I use an iMac... I just don't consider it a Professional machine because it isn't one.

I'm a professional, but there is nothing about the machine that is professional. I don't see why you find this so difficult a concept to grasp.

That's arguable. Certainly there are some people for who the form factor of the iMac is a deal breaker. But I think that market has grown smaller in recent years. With Thunderbolt being on the iMac, it opens the door to some powerful add ons.

Certainly, there are people/jobs for who the form factor of the iMac is a deal breaker. But I think Apple has raised the bar for who can use the iMac and do "professional" work on it.

 

[leman]

As the two posters above me confirmed, it is not what people do with the machine that makes it "Pro".

Nobody confirmed nothing, some people just offered their subjective opinion on the matter.

No we don't, instead we base "Pro" labels on the components within.

Who does? What does this label even mean? Some people here seem to be convinced that its the workstation grade GPU that makes the difference. Others say its the two-bay user-serviceable storage unit. Yet others say its 4 RAM slots. Which is it? The label 'Pro' in a way you try to push it is completely devoid of any sensible meaning.

A better way is to ask: what kind of tasks is this laptop good for and what tasks its not good for and then base your criticisms on that. Anything else is just blatant oversimplification.

Question: Would you call the current 13" rMBP a "Pro" level product?

Before anybody can answer that you have to tell us: what does PRO even supposed mean, in any reasonable way of the word? If you tell me that a Pro product is defined by having a 10bit panel + workstation GPU then I must say: no, its not Pro, and thank God for that - otherwise Apple would have closed their computer division long time ago. If on the other hand, you'd say 'its a reliable, functional tool to be used in your professional work' - then surely its a pro machine.

My stance on this should be clear by now. 'Pro' is just a part of the brand name, nothing more. Trying to interpret anything beyond that into it is just silly in my eyes.